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[Fudgepuppy]

This is why it's so hard to engage in good faith discussions about this stuff, there's a certain amount of eye-opening that has to happen before you can even start to understand any kind of feminist theory. It's difficult for feminists to articulate their developed positions to people who reject their first principles out of hand.

I'm not denying that women get denied certain things in life because of their gender, but I just reject the concept this girl at school when she told me I had gotten everything in life because of my gender, when I had went through a lot of shit because I didn't fill the traditional role of being a "guy".

I just don't think we can start adding We's and You's in these debates, as it's about equality by equal opportunities and equal amounts of respect, and not "What you have Vs. What I don't have".

I hate men an equal amount if they around and spread vitriol about women simply because it will never lead us anywhere.

 

[anaron]

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.

Pretty much.

 

[Bleepey]

But you have to think WHY they "benefit" women.

They were created because the idea that women cannot work thenselfs and stuffs like that.

Child Support is also pretty complicated because it is complicated to work while taking care of the children and the children is made by both, so it makes sense for both to take care of it.
The problem is that people see women as only huge pussies for sex and childbirth, and because of that it is usualy gave to the mother ... but this is changing considerably in recent years.

When the father ASKS for the child support, the battle is usualy pretty equal ... but then again most fathers don't even try because he don't want to change diapers at midnight or lose your social life or do any "women's job"

And exactly because of those reasons it is one of the things that feminism battles that are considered "men issues" =P



Name one country that had more female presidents than males

OH WAIT YOU CAN'T because it hasn't even made 100 years that women earned the right to even VOTE in most countries

edit : Finland, New Zealand, Australia, Cook Islands, Isle of Man and Pitcairn Islands are the only ones that allowed women to vote before 1913. Norway allowed EXACTLY in 1913

Any source to the child custody being awarded equally.

 

[NovemberMike]

But you have to think WHY they "benefit" women.

Largely because they were created by women as part of the early feminist movement. Children going to the woman was a mid 1800s victory called the Tender Years doctrine.

 

[Platy]

I'm not denying that women get denied certain things in life because of their gender, but I just reject the concept this girl at school when she told me I had gotten everything in life because of my gender, when I had went through a lot of shit because I didn't fill the traditional role of being a "guy".

What rocket wants to say is that if you EVER think "so if I was a women I would have receiving less money at this job or fearing being raped" than CONGRATULATIONS you had privileges for your gender ! =D

The girl in your school was probably a noob at feminism .... and the lovely part is that the hate for not filling into gender roles that you went is one of the main focus of feminism groups.

 

[smr00]

The cause of their oppression is not because of feminism, a male rights group can exist without being against feminism.

You will never convince a feminist of that, at least not the extremist ones.

I saw a video the other day with extreme feminist basically shutting down a MRA meeting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_X4DkwA_Q

It's hard to take feminist serious when they act like fucking children.

 

[Kukuk]

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.

How is it that the MRM can be classified as a hate group, but feminism perpetuates the idea that men are oppressors (Patriarchy) and rapists (Rape Culture) yet they are not?

 

[not psycho]

There are women alive today who can remember a time when women did not have the right to vote in the United States.

"Men's issues" is just not nearly an equivalent type of thing as feminism. There are some legitimate issues mixed in there, but they are probably only hurting their cause by trying to make a movement out of it.

Child custody reform for example. Does it really help to lump child custody reform together with "does feminism discriminate against men?" and "The Myth of Male Power"? Are feminists even against child custody reform in general? I don't think so.

By all means if there is a legitimate issue that you can compellingly make a case for, then make it. But acting like there needs to be a larger MRM to combat feminism is ludicrous and historically ignorant.

 

[smr00]

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.

But feminist aren't?

I have yet to see any kind of outlandish behavior from the MRA groups that the feminist do a daily fucking basis.

 

[Douche McBaggins The 3rd]

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.

No. That's Feminism. The only non hate group is no group and only treating people as equals. Though in all honesty, being a minority looking in at white feminism is a hate group against men and minorities as whole from an outsider looking in.

 

[Platy]

Any source to the child custody being awarded equally.

This Mumei post from the last Men's Rights thread! =D

my bolded in the quoted quote

Here's a good collation of information:

Perception: the courts are biased against fathers, who almost never get custody.

Fact: Though it is true that women are far more likely to be awarded custody, they are also far more likely to ask for it in the first place. To establish bias, one must show (at the very minimum) that equally qualified fathers who request custody are denied more than half of the time, and here the data prove inconvenient. Courts can't be expected to award what they're not asked to. It turns out that fathers who ask for custody (and don't give up) are very likely to get either sole or joint custody:

From a state of Massachusetts study of custody awards at the state and national level come these studies of cases where fathers requested custody:

Study 1: MASS
2100 cases where fathers sought custody (100%)
5 year duration

29% of fathers got primary custody
65% of fathers got joint custody
7% of mothers got primary custody

Study 2: MASS
700 cases. In 57, (8.14%) father sought custody
6 years

67% of fathers got primary custody
23% of mothers got primary custody

Study 3: MASS
500 cases. In 8% of these cases, father sought custody
6 years

41% of fathers got sole custody
38% of fathers got joint custody
15% of mothers got sole custody

Study 4: Los Angeles
63% of fathers who sought sole custody were successful

Study 5: US appellate custody cases
51% of fathers who sought custody were successful (not clear from wording whether this includes just sole or sole/joint custody)

The study concluded:
The high success rate of fathers does not by itself establish gender bias against women. Additional evidence, however, indicates that women may be less able to afford the lawyers and experts needed in contested custody cases (see “Family Law Overview&#8221 and that, in contested cases, different and stricter standards are applied to mothers.

So: When men actually ask, they do have a good shot of having children, and if there is a bias against men (in spite of this evidence), it affects a very small number of custody cases, since only 5 percent of custody cases actually go to litigation.

 

[mullet2000]

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.

That's the kind of mentality that leads to these invasive protests.

Like feminists, there are a loud minority of terrible MRAs, as well as good ones. I don't know enough about MRAs to get very detailed but calling any entire group a hate group (outside of the obvious such as the KKK) is very problematic.

 

[Satch]

No. That's Feminism. The only non hate group is no group and only treating people as equals. Though in all honesty, being a minority looking in at white feminism is a hate group against men and minorities as whole from an outsider looking in.

man if i told you to google "intersectionality" your head would spin

 

[Artemisia]

That's the kind of mentality that leads to these invasive protests.

Like feminists, there are a loud minority of terrible MRAs, as well as good ones. I don't know enough about MRAs to get very detailed but calling any entire group a hate group (outside of the obvious such as the KKK) is very problematic.

How can one be a 'good' MRA when the entire ideology is nonsense?

 

[Douche McBaggins The 3rd]

man if i told you to google "intersectionality" your head would spin

And if I told you that I see white feminism piggybacking off of true suffering of minorities and that their honest opinion is that they don't really give a damn about anyone other then themselves, you'd probably call me a douche.

Though in all honesty, many minorities do not see feminists as friends and in my country, feminists are seen as perpetually unhappy, constantly depressed and some of the most miserable creatures on earth. In much the same way I'm sure many people would see my culture or religion in a form of assbackwards banana tossing ignorant that doesn't know any better due to cultural norms.

I rather have no part of it.

 

[mullet2000]

How can one be a 'good' MRA when the entire ideology is nonsense?

You could simply be a man trying to look into issues such as those outlined in the OP, such as men falling behind in all aspects of education or child custody.

That said, I've said in a previous post that I think the gendered split is silly and there should just be a "human rights activism" group consisting of both genders equally (both in numbers and in weighing their goals), but that just doesn't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Valhelm]

Yeah, I've known about this for a while, and one (female) friend of mine is a really big supporter of this movement.

While some Men's Rights Activist causes are pretty legitimate, like unfair custody laws, or the suspicious that all men are pedophiles, the vast majority of MRAs really come of as whiny conservatives who want to feel oppressed. These issues are certainly problems, and should be fixed, but I don't think they're as immediate as other concerns.

Once women are actually proportionally represented in positions of power, and once women make as much money as men do, on average, we can start working on unfair custody laws and the like.

 

[Douche McBaggins The 3rd]

How can one be a 'good' MRA when the entire ideology is nonsense?

I dunno, many people from my old country see the entire feminist ideology as nonsense and refuse to accept or even tolerate them.

How can you claim to be of open mind when you clearly see someone's ideology as nonsense when they can easily see the feminist ideology as nonsense?

One of the feminists one of my friends knew was heavily into Wicca and because of how weird she was, he spread it around that all feminists pray to the moon and believe in the powers of Wicca and Sicka and Moon Curses and other such malarky. You're just closing your mind to something because you don't particularly care for the subject at hand.

And Warren Farrel used to be a hardcore feminist.

 

[Satch]

And if I told you that I see white feminism piggybacking off of true suffering of minorities and that their honest opinion is that they don't really give a damn about anyone other then themselves, you'd probably call me a douche.

Though in all honesty, many minorities do not see feminists as friends and in my country, feminists are seen as perpetually unhappy, constantly depressed and some of the most miserable creatures on earth. In much the same way I'm sure many people would see my culture or religion in a form of assbackwards banana tossing ignorant that doesn't know any better due to cultural norms.

I rather have no part of it.

um i would not call you a douche

did you look up intersectionality at all after i subtly implied that maybe you should look up intersectionality

like

im kinda sorta agreeing with bits and pieces of your position and pointed you towards something that agrees with bits and pieces of your position and you raged out like a crack addled bruce banner

 

[Vermillion]

Intriguing.

 

[tjohn86]

Is this where I can post this video I found on reddit?!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

Without choosing a side...

That lady loses a lot of points with me for yelling "shut the fuck up" over and over.

 

[remnant]

How can one be a 'good' MRA when the entire ideology is nonsense?

why would these groups want to work with feminists if this how they are seen?

Feminists go on and on about dealing with men issues too, but...where is the real life examples of this. If the solution is get in the back of the line while men continue to drop of school and fail to succeed in college, than maybe they are better off being antagonistic to feminists.

At least then they get attention.

 

[daycru]

Without choosing a side...

That lady loses a lot of points with me for yelling "shut the fuck up" over and over.

No, see, that's fine. Something something patriarchy and all.

 

[MGrant]

It's important to understand that a lot of the unfairness vs men in society comes from patriarchy as well. Unfair custody/child support laws? Thank the patriarchy for declaring that women are to be caretakers. Have to work a more dangerous job? Patriarchy.

Patriarchy isn't some concept that says men are responsible for all the ills of the world, as some poster above framed it. That would be a half-baked theory. It simply means that, the way society is set up, you are more likely to be successful by fitting into the normative white-affluent-hetero male pigeonhole than if you belong to any other group. And, in fact, that you will face many disadvantages if you look different/think different/are differently abled than someone who fits into the "normal" successful person stereotype.

Opinion: Men's Rights Movements are what happens when undergrad libertarians get togehter to ask the all-important question, "What about the menz?" as if society hasn't paid enough attention or something. I like some of the conversations they're having, but the overwhelming majority of them seem to steer towards abhorrent ideas like anti-trans "bio-truths," the option for a "financial abortion" when a man doesn't want to keep a child, and "never mind the women, men get raped, too!"

 

[IHaveCandy]

There are things society has grown to expect out of men and women. They are often expectations people have no good reason to expect outside of it just being the way things are. Men have fewer expectations or delegations than women against them, but they still have theirs. I don't think it's fair to disregard the men issues just because there are more women issues as long as that group is not dismissing women issue. One thing I think men have done well while women haven't as much is just not care. I watched a TED talk some time ago about it and it made a lot of sense. On average, men seem to care less about what society expects. Looks, weight, clothing, etc, men seem to care less on average. I think both sides should just stop caring about them.

 

[Lionheart1337]

Funny that this is probably largely due to the loud feminist outrage. Many people wouldn't even know about MRM if it weren't for a feminist telling them how horrible it is. Many people get accused of being MRAs who don't even know what the damn thing is. This resulted in some funny tweets by Joe Rogan, for example. Once normal people are made aware and actually look into what this thing is, they see that it's not so bad, and probably not as bad as the that red hair lady's thing. Most of the hate for men's rights is from feminists or "fuck all labels" type folks.

 

[Deified Data]

It's important to understand that a lot of the unfairness vs men in society comes from patriarchy as well. Unfair custody/child support laws? Thank the patriarchy for declaring that women are to be caretakers. Have to work a more dangerous job? Patriarchy.

Patriarchy isn't some concept that says men are responsible for all the ills of the world, as some poster above framed it. That would be a half-baked theory. It simply means that, the way society is set up, you are more likely to be successful by fitting into the normative white-affluent-hetero male pigeonhole than if you belong to any other group. And, in fact, that you will face many disadvantages if you look different/think different/are differently abled than someone who fits into the "normal" successful person stereotype.

Opinion: Men's Rights Movements are what happens when undergrad libertarians get togehter to ask the all-important question, "What about the menz?" as if society hasn't paid enough attention or something. I like some of the conversations they're having, but the overwhelming majority of them seem to steer towards abhorrent ideas like anti-trans "bio-truths," the option for a "financial abortion" when a man doesn't want to keep a child, and "never mind the women, men get raped, too!"

Good post. Though the fighting in this thread will inexplicably continue even after people have read it.

 

[Vesmir]

I'm all for feminism. Slowly but surely, I've taught my friends and brother to tone down/eliminate the use of "fag", "bitch", "pussy" (in a negative way), "cunt" (sorry, Football-GAF), and so on.

However one time I was punched in the face for not using "womyn"...that soured me for a while.

 

[IHaveCandy]

It's important to understand that a lot of the unfairness vs men in society comes from patriarchy as well. Unfair custody/child support laws? Thank the patriarchy for declaring that women are to be caretakers. Have to work a more dangerous job? Patriarchy.

Patriarchy isn't some concept that says men are responsible for all the ills of the world, as some poster above framed it. That would be a half-baked theory. It simply means that, the way society is set up, you are more likely to be successful by fitting into the normative white-affluent-hetero male pigeonhole than if you belong to any other group. And, in fact, that you will face many disadvantages if you look different/think different/are differently abled than someone who fits into the "normal" successful person stereotype.

Opinion: Men's Rights Movements are what happens when undergrad libertarians get togehter to ask the all-important question, "What about the menz?" as if society hasn't paid enough attention or something. I like some of the conversations they're having, but the overwhelming majority of them seem to steer towards abhorrent ideas like anti-trans "bio-truths," the option for a "financial abortion" when a man doesn't want to keep a child, and "never mind the women, men get raped, too!"

I think a true men's right issue is abortion when the man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't. Lets say they were a couple that at first planned to have the baby. The relationship fell apart early during pregnancy and the woman doesn't want the baby. The man wants the baby and is willing to even maintain full custody and responsibility of the baby. The man is even willing to financially compensate the money from time off work and recognizes that any complications risking the woman's life would ensure an abortion. Men have absolutely no say in this matter. To a lot of men in that situation, aborting the baby could be akin to killing their child in there eyes.

 

[Artemisia]

That said, I've said in a previous post that I think the gendered split is silly and there should just be a "human rights activism" group consisting of both genders equally (both in numbers and in weighing their goals), but that just doesn't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon.

Intersectionality is a major part of modern feminism.

I dunno, many people from my old country see the entire feminist ideology as nonsense and refuse to accept or even tolerate them.

How can you claim to be of open mind when you clearly see someone's ideology as nonsense when they can easily see the feminist ideology as nonsense?

Because we're dealing with facts, and not what people believe. The MRM posits that men aren't privileged. I mean if you can't at accept that then you are far gone.

 

[remnant]

It's important to understand that a lot of the unfairness vs men in society comes from patriarchy as well. Unfair custody/child support laws? Thank the patriarchy for declaring that women are to be caretakers. Have to work a more dangerous job? Patriarchy.

Patriarchy isn't some concept that says men are responsible for all the ills of the world, as some poster above framed it. That would be a half-baked theory. It simply means that, the way society is set up, you are more likely to be successful by fitting into the normative white-affluent-hetero male pigeonhole than if you belong to any other group. And, in fact, that you will face many disadvantages if you look different/think different/are differently abled than someone who fits into the "normal" successful person stereotype.

Opinion: Men's Rights Movements are what happens when undergrad libertarians get togehter to ask the all-important question, "What about the menz?" as if society hasn't paid enough attention or something. I like some of the conversations they're having, but the overwhelming majority of them seem to steer towards abhorrent ideas like anti-trans "bio-truths," the option for a "financial abortion" when a man doesn't want to keep a child, and "never mind the women, men get raped, too!"

Why not ask that question. Again this idea that just becuase the problem affects men it's okay or something.

"men get raped, too" Yeah men are raped. It's actually not funny MGrant. Why can't that be an issue. Why does it have to be either/or?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

How is it that the MRM can be classified as a hate group, but feminism perpetuates the idea that men are oppressors (Patriarchy) and rapists (Rape Culture) yet they are not?

You first have to separate men as the living breathing strawman of patriarchy. They are not the same thing. Then you can start to understand.

 

[cubicle47b]

While some Men's Rights Activist causes are pretty legitimate, like unfair custody laws, or the suspicious that all men are pedophiles, the vast majority of MRAs really come of as whiny conservatives who want to feel oppressed. These issues are certainly problems, and should be fixed, but I don't think they're as immediate as other concerns.

Once women are actually proportionally represented in positions of power, and once women make as much money as men do, on average, we can start working on unfair custody laws and the like.

I don't know about 'want to feel oppressed'. I think the mens rights movement naturally attracts men who've been hurt by interactions with the opposite sex and are confused and/or angry about it.

We can work on men's issues and women's issues at the same time just as we can work on race, sex, and gender issues at the same time. That's not to say we shouldn't prioritize those issues at all.

 

[MGrant]

Why not ask that question. Again this idea that just becuase the problem affects men it's okay or something.

"men get raped, too" Yeah men are raped. It's actually not funny MGrant. Why can't that be an issue. Why does it have to be either/or?

My apologies. The point I was trying to make isn't that they shouldn't be talking about male victims of rape, but that a good deal of those conversations are intended to erase the significance or draw attention away from female victims of rape. It's about appropriation for them, not organizing to end rape and coercion.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's fun how many posts have to be like "that's already what feminism does" every time these threads come up. There's just so much willful ignorance about the subject.

 

[Artemisia]

I think a true men's right issue is abortion when the man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't. Lets say they were a couple that at first planned to have the baby. The relationship fell apart early during pregnancy and the woman doesn't want the baby. The man wants the baby and is willing to even maintain full custody and responsibility of the baby. The man is even willing to financially compensate the money from time off work and recognizes that any complications risking the woman's life would ensure an abortion. Men have absolutely no say in this matter. To a lot of men in that situation, abhorring the baby could be akin to killing their child in there eyes.

It's her body. She's the one who is delivering the child. Sounds harsh, but any other opinion would be infringing on a woman's autonomy.

 

[Vermillion]

My apologies. The point I was trying to make isn't that they shouldn't be talking about male victims of rape, but that a good deal of those conversations are intended to erase the significance or draw attention away from female victims of rape. It's about appropriation for them, not organizing to end rape and coercion.

Last time this was discussed, the conclusion was simply to treat rape as rape. And if you think about it, the a lot of the focus on female rape comes from the information given to women about how they can avoid rape.

 

[Satch]

Why not ask that question. Again this idea that just becuase the problem affects men it's okay or something.

"men get raped, too" Yeah men are raped. It's actually not funny MGrant. Why can't that be an issue. Why does it have to be either/or?

He doesn't think it's funny. He thinks "nevermind the women" is what makes the proposition absurd.

edit: o @ my slow typing on a phone

 

[remist]

There is nothing more pathetic than the "Men's Rights Movement" - truly a laughable bunch of lonely, entitled manchildren who want so badly to play the victim.

Simply identifying as being a part of the "Men's Right Movement" validates the broad brush strokes. I don't think MRM is really comparable to feminism either so there is no irony.

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.

I don't really know much about MRA's, but most of the criticism I see is pretty content light or just straight up Ad hominem like these.

Why don't you make some substantive points about the legitimacy of the issues brought up in the article. As it is, you aren't doing your argument any favors.

 

[MGrant]

I think a true men's right issue is abortion when the man wants the baby, and the woman doesn't. Lets say they were a couple that at first planned to have the baby. The relationship fell apart early during pregnancy and the woman doesn't want the baby. The man wants the baby and is willing to even maintain full custody and responsibility of the baby. The man is even willing to financially compensate the money from time off work and recognizes that any complications risking the woman's life would ensure an abortion. Men have absolutely no say in this matter. To a lot of men in that situation, abhorring the baby could be akin to killing their child in there eyes.

This would obviously be something best handled over many honest discussions between the parties involved. However, to grant a man the right to decide that a woman MUST go through the trauma of birth when she does not want to do so is a dangerous precedent to set, and one that I would not support.

 

[LuCkymoON]

Women make up at least a slight majority of most university programs, although males still greatly outnumber women in fields such as engineering, computer sciences and math. Eighty-three per cent of architecture, engineering and related technologies graduates in 2011 were male, only a slight drop from 85 per cent in 1993.

In the long run this will cause more and more companies to import engineers, wages to sink lower, and more students to avoid to STEM fields.

 

[MGrant]

Last time this was discussed, the conclusion was simply to treat rape as rape. And if you think about it, the a lot of the focus on female rape comes from the information given to women about how they can avoid rape.

I think the focus on female rape comes from the fact that we got a real problem with females getting raped in this world. It's pretty common in the West, but it's a downright epidemic in developing communities.

 

[remnant]

My apologies. The point I was trying to make isn't that they shouldn't be talking about male victims of rape, but that a good deal of those conversations are intended to erase the significance or draw attention away from female victims of rape. It's about appropriation for them, not organizing to end rape and coercion.

He doesn't think it's funny. He thinks "nevermind the women" is what makes the proposition absurd.

edit: o @ my slow typing on a phone

Every one. Every single MRA group points to rape or sexual assault on men is just an excuse to dismiss assault on women? Are we applying this logic to all of their arguments?

If not, than again I ask why are these issues brushed aside as not relevant, and people who talk about them compared to groups like the KKK?

 

[Synth_floyd]

“Patriarchy is a system of male privilege, so the transformation of patriarchy means that men lose their privileges. And in that sense, the men's rights movements is a backlash against the loss of traditional privilege,” Smith said.

Sums up the whole thing pretty well. You don't need a "Men's rights" movement because all rights have traditionally gone to the dominant group in society. White, Christian, heterosexual, men. Which is why you don't need a white person's rights group or a straight person's rights group, etc. either.

 

[cubicle47b]

It's fun how many posts have to be like "that's already what feminism does" every time these threads come up. There's just so much willful ignorance about the subject.

Ignorance, sure. I don't necessarily agree with willful ignorance. Also, while I agree that patriarchal theory explains most (if not all) mens issues that doesn't mean that feminists are prioritizing those issues.

I think there's room for a mens movement and I think there's room for disagreement with feminist theory within that movement. However, the movement as it is, largely an anti-feminist movement, is unacceptable.

 

[mullet2000]

Intersectionality is a major part of modern feminism.

I'm well aware of Intersectionality. And I think that it's a great first step, but it's not quite there yet. I also think that as a whole the MRA groups aren't filled with very good people, but I was just saying one should be careful about calling anyone looking into men's right issues a "hater" is problematic.

Feminism is still "feminism." I'm talking of truly equal rights groups. Now, i'm not even trying to say that women don't face more issues then men - they do. But the issues should be looked at as the severity of the issue, from a gender-less perspective, and dealt with accordingly. A lot of men (discounting the terrible ones not worth listening to) still don't feel connected to feminism, and as long as one gender doesn't feel totally comfortable in the movement of the other then there's still a long way forward to go.

I mean, let's face it, the focus of feminism is still women. That's what it was created to do. And that's not necessarily even a bad thing. But intersectionality isn't quite the same thing as an equal human rights group, in practice. But, it's moving toward that at least.

I will admit, my hopes are kind of pie-in-the-sky for now, though.

 

[BocoDragon]

Some legitimate points about male issues.

Attacking feminism makes you a kook.

 

[IHaveCandy]

This would obviously be something best handled over many honest discussions between the parties involved. However, to grant a man the right to decide that a woman MUST go through the trauma of birth when she does not want to do so is a dangerous precedent to set, and one that I would not support.

I think what changes my perspective is that I'm not really certain about whether or not anortion should be legal. I understand the argument of both sides, but I can't really pick a side without knowing I am not holding consistent views.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

as long as one gender doesn't feel totally comfortable in the movement of the other then there's still a long way forward to go.

So what you're saying is that the way to equality is still completely controlled by men.

 

[mullet2000]

So what you're saying is that the way to equality is still completely controlled by men.

Um? No. This applies to women feeling completely comfortable as well.