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[joelseph]

Did everyone know the rules? I feel like we can usually knock one out in around 3 hours. I can't imagine what would make it take six.

Though that's just for the base game. I hear the Pegasus expansion makes things take longer.

We had one guy that did not but everyone else knew the rules. We were playing with Exodus but only the extra cards not the optional board or rules. It was a strange game, hardly any crisis where combat related. Lots of shortages and power grabs. Humans won with 1 moral left after a hidden cylon sat on President and Admiral for most of the game. I hope the games will get much quicker once everyone is comfortable with the rules.

 

[StoOgE]

We had one guy that did not but everyone else knew the rules. We were playing with Exodus but only the extra cards not the optional board or rules. It was a strange game, hardly any crisis where combat related. Lots of shortages and power grabs. Humans won with 1 moral left after a hidden cylon sat on President and Admiral for most of the game. I hope the games will get much quicker once everyone is comfortable with the rules.

Yeah, it really shouldn't take that long.

You could always get the newest expansion and the Cylon fleet board. That really ups the threat level and can end games much earlier.

 

[UpperCaseN]

I've come to realize that I only own games that are in the easy/moderate level for difficulty or complexity. Even my wishlist is mostly comprised of the same. I own games like Ticket to Ride, Catan, Formula D... I think Pandemic is the most complex game I have that hits the table on a regular basis. My gaming group has stuff that fills the void (we often play the D&D co-op games, I own Last Night on Earth but we've had our fill with that) but I think I need some suggestions on more complex stuff to own. We disliked Arkham Horror (for sale in the buy/sell/trade thread, btw) and a friend owns BSG but we haven't tried it yet. Any other suggestions? I have my eye on Cosmic Encounters

 

[AstroLad]

Approximately what age do your games usually end? We have a hard time getting past 7. Things wrap up real quick about then.

Hmmm it depends. Been playing a lot of 2P recently and I think those games can get a bit later into the ages. Often you'll have one person trying to leapfrog ages (one of my favorite strategies) and someone else back in the relative dark ages trying to win on pure scoring. Haven't yet had a finish where you have to draw past 10 though I was pushing for one yesterday -- the 9 & 10 cards are just so crazy they can bring about the endgame immediately.

 

[Artadius]

We had one guy that did not but everyone else knew the rules. We were playing with Exodus but only the extra cards not the optional board or rules. It was a strange game, hardly any crisis where combat related. Lots of shortages and power grabs. Humans won with 1 moral left after a hidden cylon sat on President and Admiral for most of the game. I hope the games will get much quicker once everyone is comfortable with the rules.

How many total player turns? How did the jump distances go... where alot of them short distances? If it ends up you took a LOT of turns, sounds like your Cylon players were just bad toasters since the humans won.

We've played BSG so much in our group that the humans know if they don't hurry the F up, the Cylons are going to whittle away their resources too fast for them to get to 8+1 distance.

Unfamiliarity with the rules can lengthen the game...but even at first or when we've included new expansions... I don't think we've ever had a game go over 4 hours. They're typically 2 to 3 hours max.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Just picked up Ascending Empires. Hope to try it out this coming weekend.

 

[Zalasta]

Any other suggestions? I have my eye on Cosmic Encounters

Would be easier if you narrow it down. Are you interested in certain mechanics (such as worker placement, resource management, pick up & delivery, auction bidding, etc)? Or are you more into thematic games?

For example, if you like building routes in Ticket to Ride, a step up in complexity would be On the Underground which incorporates pick up and delivery of passengers, or Union Pacific/Airlines for stock holding.

 

[Drey1082]

Played some Battlestar Galactica and Castle Ravenloft this weekend. Man is BSG a pain to teach new players.

Castle Ravenloft was surprisingly much better than I remembered it. The encounters are brutal, but the overall game was really fun. Made me want to pick up Wrath of Ashardalon, but then I realized I don't need 2 of these extremely large boxes.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Man is BSG a pain to teach new players.

This works out pretty well to get things started: http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/40489/teaching-battlestar-in-6-easy-steps

There's still specifics in terms of moving Vipers around and combat, but that's a pretty quick and concise way to get through a lot of the overall teaching.

 

[UpperCaseN]

Would be easier if you narrow it down. Are you interested in certain mechanics (such as worker placement, resource management, pick up & delivery, auction bidding, etc)? Or are you more into thematic games?

For example, if you like building routes in Ticket to Ride, a step up in complexity would be On the Underground which incorporates pick up and delivery of passengers, or Union Pacific/Airlines for stock holding.

good point, that is a super vague question now that I think about it. My group prefers shorter games which might be why I have the easier stuff. Our group nights typically have between 7-11 people over, and not all are hardcore gamers. Just the other night a friend was explaining Smallworld and 2 people just up and left due to intimidation.

I can figure it out on my own, I'm just looking for some names to spark interest

 

[ultron87]

Totally random aside, but The Resistance is a hell of a lot of fun.

It's like BSG mixed with Mafia/Werewolf. Takes less than 30 minutes and tears friendships apart.

 

[Neverfade]

Totally random aside, but The Resistance is a hell of a lot of fun.

It's like BSG mixed with Mafia/Werewolf. Takes less than 30 minutes and tears friendships apart.

We've been playing this recently. I don't dislike the game, but most of us can't seem to really LOVE it. Personally, I think it's the BSG player in me. The length and tension of that game just can't be duplicated by such a short game. That and the mechanics are pretty bare bones. Still, it works pretty well if you have a ton of people and is usually good for a laugh.

 

[UpperCaseN]

The Resistance has been on my radar since I saw a video review of it about 3 weeks ago. I then played Werewolf for the first time ever at Gencon. Although Werewolf was fun, that game took like 3 hours with ~15 people. I'm hoping The Resistance is the same game but shorter. That said, it's been in my CSI shopping cart for like a week now; I'm just waiting to find 1 more game to put me over the $100 mark.

 

[fenners]

The Resistance has been on my radar since I saw a video review of it about 3 weeks ago. I then played Werewolf for the first time ever at Gencon. Although Werewolf was fun, that game took like 3 hours with ~15 people. I'm hoping The Resistance is the same game but shorter.

It's way way shorter.

 

[ultron87]

The Resistance has been on my radar since I saw a video review of it about 3 weeks ago. I then played Werewolf for the first time ever at Gencon. Although Werewolf was fun, that game took like 3 hours with ~15 people. I'm hoping The Resistance is the same game but shorter. That said, it's been in my CSI shopping cart for like a week now; I'm just waiting to find 1 more game to put me over the $100 mark.

The length is only dependent on how much arguing/deliberating people do. The actual game play part could be done in ~15 minutes probably.

I like it better than Werewolf because no one is ever "killed" so everyone is in the game the whole time.

 

[Cathcart]

Even though I should be saving money for less important things like my mortgage I just placed an order on CSI. Picking up Leaders for 7 Wonders, my first Dominion expansion (Intrigue) and Space Alert plus expansion.

Super psyched about Space Alert but we probably won't play it right away because I've introduced a bunch of new games the past few weeks (including StarCraft) so we'll probably stick with those for a while until everyone is more comfortable with them. Really looking forward to playing it, though.

 

[BomberMouse]

I've come to realize that I only own games that are in the easy/moderate level for difficulty or complexity. Even my wishlist is mostly comprised of the same. I own games like Ticket to Ride, Catan, Formula D... I think Pandemic is the most complex game I have that hits the table on a regular basis. My gaming group has stuff that fills the void (we often play the D&D co-op games, I own Last Night on Earth but we've had our fill with that) but I think I need some suggestions on more complex stuff to own. We disliked Arkham Horror (for sale in the buy/sell/trade thread, btw) and a friend owns BSG but we haven't tried it yet. Any other suggestions? I have my eye on Cosmic Encounters

I'm on your same boat, I usually buy light games since most of my games are with my family or non gamers. I think the only "heavy" game I own and play is agricola (god bless animeeples). I've been eyeing Carson City or Galaxy Trucker. I'd love to try Dominant Species, Dungeon Lords, Age of Empires or TTA, but I think those are too much.

Just picked up Ascending Empires. Hope to try it out this coming weekend.

That game looks simply awesome if you have the right group for it. I'm looking forward to hear some impressions.

 

[Neverfade]

Carson City or Galaxy Trucker. .

For the love of baby musketeer jesus, Caron City.

 

[sneaky77]

omg <3 <3 <3 Innovation. Expansion is epic -- introduces so many new strategies and is now even less predictable since the card sets change game to game. even the black icons serve some very important functions now

How easy a game is it to teach or learn? I saw it was 2p so that interests me since normally I only play with the gf

 

[Gaming Truth]

How easy a game is it to teach or learn? I saw it was 2p so that interests me since normally I only play with the gf

I convinced two friends that it was a lot like 7 Wonders (loosely, but not really), 10-15 minutes on rules, and told them they'd "get it" just like 7 Wonders halfway through the first game, then it'll start again in 30 minutes.

It turned out to be true. I placed last in both games (I love playing, but I seem to suck at games I own). The good folks at Asmadi showed me something really simple at GenCon: All the actions you can take are on one side of the player card and generally text that you'd have to look up (like splay) are on the other. Get them comfortable with just the card rules and you're 90% there.

 

[Affeinvasion]

The Resistance has been on my radar since I saw a video review of it about 3 weeks ago. I then played Werewolf for the first time ever at Gencon. Although Werewolf was fun, that game took like 3 hours with ~15 people. I'm hoping The Resistance is the same game but shorter. That said, it's been in my CSI shopping cart for like a week now; I'm just waiting to find 1 more game to put me over the $100 mark.

I see you guys use CSI a lot, but miniature Market tends to have the same stuff, for a bit cheaper and they have free shipping at $75.

 

[BomberMouse]

I see you guys use CSI a lot, but miniature Market tends to have the same stuff, for a bit cheaper and they have free shipping at $75.

Well, I don't buy from CSI either but they usually have a bigger inventory (MM usually only stock the major publishers) and they have a loyalty program with additional discounts.

 

[AstroLad]

Well, I don't buy from CSI either but they usually have a bigger inventory (MM usually only stock the major publilshers) and they have a loyalty program with additional discounts.

yeah this. MM is pretty limited inventory -- at least last i checked.

 

[UpperCaseN]

There's 1, just 1, copy of Alien Frontiers showing up on CSI right now. I plan on getting this game but not for the $70 they're asking for; I recall it being $50 on amazon while the latest print was still available.

I put my 1st order in btw, Citadels, King of Tokyo, Survive, Catan Seafarers, and the Resistance. Now to wait for King of Tokyo to release for the shipment.

 

[AstroLad]

There's 1, just 1, copy of Alien Frontiers showing up on CSI right now. I plan on getting this game but not for the $70 they're asking for; I recall it being $50 on amazon while the latest print was still available.

I put my 1st order in btw, Citadels, King of Tokyo, Survive, Catan Seafarers, and the Resistance. Now to wait for King of Tokyo to release for the shipment.

Ha! I just played my first game of Alien Frontiers at tonight's game night a few minutes ago. Really fun game -- only downside was you can get some serious analysis paralysis late in the game because of all the different combinations and card interactions in play. We were literally treating the last turn like a puzzle where we all worked together to figure out how I could place my last colony and end the game.

 

[TwiztidElf]

I've come to realize that I only own games that are in the easy/moderate level for difficulty or complexity. Even my wishlist is mostly comprised of the same. I own games like Ticket to Ride, Catan, Formula D... I think Pandemic is the most complex game I have that hits the table on a regular basis. My gaming group has stuff that fills the void (we often play the D&D co-op games, I own Last Night on Earth but we've had our fill with that) but I think I need some suggestions on more complex stuff to own. We disliked Arkham Horror (for sale in the buy/sell/trade thread, btw) and a friend owns BSG but we haven't tried it yet. Any other suggestions? I have my eye on Cosmic Encounters

A lot like me. 95% of my collection is gateway/filler type stuff.
Maybe try Puerto Rico? That's my heaviest, and it goes over very well.

 

[AstroLad]

There's 1, just 1, copy of Alien Frontiers showing up on CSI right now. I plan on getting this game but not for the $70 they're asking for; I recall it being $50 on amazon while the latest print was still available.

I put my 1st order in btw, Citadels, King of Tokyo, Survive, Catan Seafarers, and the Resistance. Now to wait for King of Tokyo to release for the shipment.

:/ King of Tokyo is now listed for Aug/Sept at CSI. I have an order waiting on it too....

 

[UpperCaseN]

:/ King of Tokyo is now listed for Aug/Sept at CSI. I have an order waiting on it too....

an Iello employee expects it in stores by the end of this week:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7272613#7272613

 

[Zalasta]

I'm on your same boat, I usually buy light games since most of my games are with my family or non gamers. I think the only "heavy" game I own and play is agricola (god bless animeeples). I've been eyeing Carson City or Galaxy Trucker. I'd love to try Dominant Species, Dungeon Lords, Age of Empires or TTA, but I think those are too much.

Galaxy Trucker would be decent for non-gamers, and possibly Dungeon Lords too. Everything else you named may be a bit too complex (especially TTA and DS, those are like 2+ hours games).

 

[MichaelBD]

Yeah, it really shouldn't take that long.

You could always get the newest expansion and the Cylon fleet board. That really ups the threat level and can end games much earlier.

The Cylon Fleet Board definitely keeps things moving on the viper/raider/basestar front.

Since adding Exodus and Pegasus (both of which we incorporate in some manner for all BSG games now) our game times have been under 3 hours. Each side has access to more tools to forward their agendas.

As to why it took six hours that's a tough one. The first time I played was with 6, all new players, and only the base set, and even that game took less than 5.

The biggest drag on time I see while playing is how the jump icons show up for Crises draws coupled with, as mentioned previously, jump distance. Humans need to speed it up any way they can, and the Pegasus board helps somewhat by adding more firepower and the ability to dump skill cards to increase the jump track.

 

[UpperCaseN]

soooo... I just discovered how to actually make a trade proposal on BGG; I hadn't known about the Direct Matches search. yeah, I should have been using this all along. I just made 2 proposals and am anxiously waiting for responses.

 

[MichaelBD]

soooo... I just discovered how to actually make a trade proposal on BGG; I hadn't known about the Direct Matches search. yeah, I should have been using this all along. I just made 2 proposals and am anxiously waiting for responses.

Good luck! I've had a couple of trades go through, and a few that never got a response.

 

[fenners]

soooo... I just discovered how to actually make a trade proposal on BGG; I hadn't known about the Direct Matches search. yeah, I should have been using this all along. I just made 2 proposals and am anxiously waiting for responses.

I get better results when I suggest the trade via PM first. Use the DirectMatch to find good trades, then just msg them about it to ask if they're interested. People often just ignore trade offers or have out of date tradelists.

 

[UpperCaseN]

I get better results when I suggest the trade via PM first. Use the DirectMatch to find good trades, then just msg them about it to ask if they're interested. People often just ignore trade offers or have out of date tradelists.

good to know, I'll do this for future trades. should I be making several offers for the same game(s) at once or should I go 1 by 1 to prevent the inevitable "oops, I asked 3 people to trade and all 3 said yes"

 

[Zalasta]

good to know, I'll do this for future trades. should I be making several offers for the same game(s) at once or should I go 1 by 1 to prevent the inevitable "oops, I asked 3 people to trade and all 3 said yes"

I prefer to message people first because once you send a proposal out without reaching an agreement, it's sort of out of your hand, therefore:

1. You can't rescind it if you find a better deal (granted you can always mutually agree to cancel if he does accept, but that sort of make you look bad).
2. The guy may not have updated his list so he may not even have the game(s) you're interested in.
3. Person may not be trading at all.
4. He may choose to sit on your proposal because he's got other deals going on.

It's always better to feel someone out first. Then you can negotiate or change your mind.

 

[joeyjoejoeshabadoo]

I prefer to message people first because once you send a proposal out without reaching an agreement, it's sort of out of your hand, therefore:

1. You can't rescind it if you find a better deal (granted you can always mutually agree to cancel if he does accept, but that sort of make you look bad).
2. The guy may not have updated his list so he may not even have the game(s) you're interested in.
3. Person may not be trading at all.
4. He may choose to sit on your proposal because he's got other deals going on.

It's always better to feel someone out first. Then you can negotiate or change your mind.

Great advise. An initial PM is how I always do my trades and I've had a ton of successes with that.

Math Trades are also really good at dumping a bunch of stuff. They are intimidating but if you watch some of the tutorial videos they demystify the entire process. It's actually a really easy and painless process.

 

[BigAT]

So is it just me or is Saint Petersburg awful? Granted I haven't even finished a full game of it yet, but I don't really see any redeeming qualities so far.

 

[platypotamus]

So is it just me or is Saint Petersburg awful? Granted I haven't even finished a full game of it yet, but I don't really see any redeeming qualities so far.

It's supposed to be pretty good offline, but the long down time and the frequent "turns" where you just pass makes it less than ideal for yucata. I think most of us are on the same page.

 

[Neverfade]

Played a 2p game of Rune Age tonight and really liked it. Deck building with some nice interaction.

Played a 2p game of Quarriors and thought it was decent.

 

[Ubersnug]

For anyone interested, I put in a pre-order for the gears of war boardgame. I'll try to post up a review for you guys when it shows up.

 

[Dreavus]

Somehow I didn't know this thread existed, and I've been on GAF for a while now. I need to venture onto the OT side more often.

Played a round of Race for the Galaxy today with the first expansion included. Great game all around in the limited times I've played. My brother cleaned up this time with a bunch of the new "goal" cards that put him just over the rest of us for the win. I like how the game looks almost comically complicated with the various symbols all over the cards, but it's pretty easy to pick up after the first game or so. And I am routinely impressed by how thematically sound many of the cards are (such as doomed world, mining conglomerate, consumer markets... so awesome.)

Also has anyone tried this "Runewars" game mentioned in the OP? I am fully aware of it's exorbitant price tag, but I can't help but be interested by it (I've also got a gift card I'm itching to use). Checked out a few reviews and such and it looks pretty cool, and also very complex. Has anyone sat down and played a few games of it and can give an impression? I would love you for it. I'm having trouble searching the thread for specific impressions

 

[superrobot]

It's supposed to be pretty good offline, but the long down time and the frequent "turns" where you just pass makes it less than ideal for yucata. I think most of us are on the same page.

Ha ha. I know that feeling.
I'm in a 4 player game which according to my emails started on April 1.
It's my turn usually every 3-5 days, though breaks of up to 10 days are common.
I usually pass due to questionable purchasing decisions in earlier rounds.
It's also a training game.

On the other hand I've finally completed a few games of Thunderstone.
One was very tense. Just lost by a point near the end due to not being able to take on the last monster due having light penalities. I'm liking it.

[Edit] Just discovered 'Resting' - I'm about to be destroyed - I am a rules moron.

 

[StoOgE]

So is it just me or is Saint Petersburg awful? Granted I haven't even finished a full game of it yet, but I don't really see any redeeming qualities so far.

It's a top 100 game on BGG (or hovers right around it). It was sort of the hot simple card game before Dominion/RFTG came along. It's a nice little economic/VP engine game in card form that works really well. It is just not at all suited to asymetrical play because too many of your moves are just passing while other players are still taking action.. so you may not do anything for days on end.

It would be like playing Dominion or RFTG asymmetrically. Just wouldn't work. It's a game that is meant to be played really quick, dragging a single game on for months just doesn't work.

 

[MichaelBD]

I played my first 2-player game of Innovation yesterday. I've had the chance to play the game a few times now and each time I play it I like it more, much more than the designer's Glory to Rome, which I like a lot.

Browsing the Innovation boards on the Geek this morning I learned we have been playing an important part of the game incorrectly. We haven't been sharing the non-I Demand dogma effects on "I Demand" cards. Pretty significant oversight on our part, which I'll be correcting as of tonight.

Great game. It's got a bit of a learning curve to it and there were times where we were both frozen by AP but I'm sure once we get more familiar with the cards and effects we will be able to bang out games quickly.

Also played my second game of Quarriors (again 2 player). Honestly it's not wowing me yet (I've had it preordered since June) but seeing all those dice in the game setup makes me giddy, and it's another quick filler, so I'll be playing it more.

And I've been seriously eye-balling Doom: TBG. I had planned on picking up GoW but after reading some early reviews and reviewing the rules I'm thinking, for less money, I can get Doom. With Doom one of the players is in charge of controlling the Invaders. Personally I find that idea a lot more interesting instead of players trying to beat a deck of cards.

 

[MichaelBD]

Somehow I didn't know this thread existed, and I've been on GAF for a while now. I need to venture onto the OT side more often.

Played a round of Race for the Galaxy today with the first expansion included. Great game all around in the limited times I've played. My brother cleaned up this time with a bunch of the new "goal" cards that put him just over the rest of us for the win. I like how the game looks almost comically complicated with the various symbols all over the cards, but it's pretty easy to pick up after the first game or so. And I am routinely impressed by how thematically sound many of the cards are (such as doomed world, mining conglomerate, consumer markets... so awesome.)

Also has anyone tried this "Runewars" game mentioned in the OP? I am fully aware of it's exorbitant price tag, but I can't help but be interested by it (I've also got a gift card I'm itching to use). Checked out a few reviews and such and it looks pretty cool, and also very complex. Has anyone sat down and played a few games of it and can give an impression? I would love you for it. I'm having trouble searching the thread for specific impressions

I've never been a fan of playing with goals in Race. To me the game just becomes Race for the Goals instead of Race for the Galaxy.

 

[UpperCaseN]

For anyone interested, I put in a pre-order for the gears of war boardgame. I'll try to post up a review for you guys when it shows up.

I never got to play it at Gencon, but I was able to hover over some people and talk to 1 guy as he was stepping away from it.

He said it was a little too easy and the enemy AI is too simple, but to keep in mind they did play the intro scenario. It looked like it's easy to get overwhelmed and that sticking together is key to survival. For their scenario, they just had to destroy 3 emergence holes and when you destroy one, it causes a final surge of locusts to come from it. I have a feeling it's going to be dungeon crawler lite, but I'll probably bite anyway since I am a huge gears fan. Really wish I could have tested it, though.

 

[Neverfade]

Also has anyone tried this "Runewars" game mentioned in the OP? I am fully aware of it's exorbitant price tag, but I can't help but be interested by it (I've also got a gift card I'm itching to use). Checked out a few reviews and such and it looks pretty cool, and also very complex. Has anyone sat down and played a few games of it and can give an impression? I would love you for it. I'm having trouble searching the thread for specific impressions

I wrote the OP Runewars bit so I'll try to break it down. The game is played over a numbers of years with each year's season being a 'turn'. The first thing players do is build the modular board. The board is then seeded with rune tokens and the goal is to control enough areas with these runes. The basic mechanics revolve around playing an order card (numbered 1-8) each season that theoretically get stronger as their number gets bigger. This plays into the supremacy bonus, which is an additional action you get to take as long as the order card you played is the highest order card you've played thus far this turn. Actions include stuff like move troops to a neutral area, attack, harvest resources from controlled tiles, build strongholds etc etc. Battle is handled with a deck of cards that have different results based on what class of unit you're attacking with.

Each race has its strengths and weaknesses and it's pretty balanced. Your first game can be a little lengthy as the rules are a little awkward to learn from the book, but in actuality the game is really straightforward. My girlfriend and I can play a two player game in an hour and a half now. a 4p game will probably take you 2.5ish.

Hope that helped.

 

[Flynn]

I've never been a fan of playing with goals in Race. To me the game just becomes Race for the Goals instead of Race for the Galaxy.

I like the goals a lot. The cool thing about them is that racing for them can lead you down an inefficient path. Of course it is good to win them all, but having them out there offers a little push and pull -- especially with more than two players.

 

[Dreavus]

I wrote the OP Runewars bit so I'll try to break it down. The game is played over a numbers of years with each year's season being a 'turn'. The first thing players do is build the modular board. The board is then seeded with rune tokens and the goal is to control enough areas with these runes. The basic mechanics revolve around playing an order card (numbered 1-8) each season that theoretically get stronger as their number gets bigger. This plays into the supremacy bonus, which is an additional action you get to take as long as the order card you played is the highest order card you've played thus far this turn. Actions include stuff like move troops to a neutral area, attack, harvest resources from controlled tiles, build strongholds etc etc. Battle is handled with a deck of cards that have different results based on what class of unit you're attacking with.

Each race has its strengths and weaknesses and it's pretty balanced. Your first game can be a little lengthy as the rules are a little awkward to learn from the book, but in actuality the game is really straightforward. My girlfriend and I can play a two player game in an hour and a half now. a 4p game will probably take you 2.5ish.

Hope that helped.

Thanks! I'm looking at a few other games as well, but this one is high on the list at the moment. Can I count this as a recommendation?

 

[AstroLad]

I like the goals a lot. The cool thing about them is that racing for them can lead you down an inefficient path. Of course it is good to win them all, but having them out there offers a little push and pull -- especially with more than two players.

Yeah I feel the same way -- quite like them with 4 but not at all with 2.