benjipwns
Banned
No wonder you're in bed with corporatist $hrillary against the working class and democracy.
The New Hampshire Primary |Feb 9|: Live Free or Die
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excelsiorlef
Member
Clinton votes 93% similar to Sanders, the GOP does not.
Anything that helps the GOP hurts the people, end of story.
benjipwns
Banned
So you don't take responsibility for the suffering caused by a President Hillary Clinton?
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
But that's the problem, Bernie is much more on point with Obama '08 than Hillary is in 2016. Bernie is about change, while Hillary is content with the status quo. She likes the system just the way it is because she lives in it and utilizes it to her benefit. A vote for Hillary is a vote to keep things the way they are. I don't like things the way they are, so she is not my first choice as a candidate, Bernie is.
Will Bernie have a difficult time getting change and legislation through the government? With this Congress and Senate most certainly. But change has to begin somewhere, and here is the people's chance to stand up and make a very loud statement. Maybe Bernie will be roadblocked just like Obama has been, but at least with him and our loud voices we have a chance. With Hillary, we won't.
I'll take the chance for a better tomorrow over no chance at all, apparently you are fine with things the way they are.
Square2015
Member
Here's the 2008 NH thread > http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225657
Prodigal Son
Member
"Imnotkiddingmaddi", an Anti-Clinton hash-tag is trending at the moment.
She could try reaching out to them. She could try getting her proxies not to suggest they're all stupid and boy crazy. She could quit attacking Bernie and his supporters.
Bernie could do the same. Both of them are in the process of splitting the Democratic party, and either of them will have a difficult time putting it back together for the primaries if they, and their supporters, keep treating each other like garbage.
I said this six months ago, and it's been playing out exactly as expected, with both camps getting their supporters to viciously attack each other, and ensure that either side is full of embittered people when the candidate is chosen.
Ultimately, though, the responsibility for bringing the party together again is the candidate's (and the DNCs). It has always been that way, and it will always be that way. No one gets to be the default candidate and act as if other candidates are taking "their" votes. All candidates in primaries are attempting to win, and that's the way it's supposed to be. If, at the end, you can't get Democratic voters out, it's because you haven't done your job as a candidate, which is to sway the electorate into voting for you, not frighten them into doing it.
But, by all means, everyone keep calling the other side stupid or class traitors or racist or misogynist and see if they want to join you in getting out the vote for the GE.
Ogrekiller
Member
Roadblocked?
Obama came in with the House and the Senate and got the ACA passed.
Bernie doesn't even want to campaign with his so called party that he just joined.
You wanted change in 08, you got it. And then midterms came and Democrats got wiped out and the reaction is MORE CHANGE, without even considering what is it people can realistically do?
No chance at all is exactly what you're going to get then. The DNC will abandon Bernie in the event he wins the nomination and so will the Reagan Democrats.
benjipwns
Banned
Look, a key part of our electoral system is democratic centralism.
In the end we all want the same things, I think. Just have different perspectives on how to get it.
Haha, the reason I left is because of how frustrating it was to work within the system. How I knew politics would never be for me as a candidate. But we didn't work for the type of negative things associated with lobbyists. Things like an expansion for the Americans with Disabilities act and such. I think I still have the picture of me at Senator Barack Obama's office and Hillary Clinton's office as well as John McCain's.
lastflowers
Banned
Are you telling me that I should care about the DNC and not the bills and reform that are being passed?
The democrats can easily exploit Bush and Rubio's weaknesses(or let them show their weaknesses without doing anything at all) and still win the GE. I don't know enough about Kasich to determine if he is a threat.
lastflowers
Banned
Best thing we can all do is learn from mistakes and try to do the best thing, which is why I sometimes shake my head at how exclusionary and so self-sure people can be in these debates.
Kasich's awkwardness is a dealbreaker in the general.
I mean I think people should try at least to be less taken aback when people seem so serious and blunt when discussing politics. Most people instinctively understand politics has real consequences, so unlike videogames or something people can get very annoyed when they feel someone doesn't realize they're making a mistake that can very well harm people.
But I don't think people should take it so personally. Political debate usually has a rough edge to it. Hell, straight up fist fights break out in many parliaments around the world.
Mengy said:
It's a false statement to say Hillary is for "status quo" and Bernie is 'for change'. That's the type of shallow, black-and-white political commentary that got us the gridlock in Washington today. Simply does not work. Hillary is for change in a great many areas - that change is simply smaller steps and far more incremental than Bernie's large, sweeping change. The problem is, neither of them are going to get any legislation passed, and no sending a "loud message" will not do it as long as politicians don't have to really fear a primary challenge thanks to gerrymandered districts. So if you're throwing odds on which is likely to happen - a person aiming for tiny, small steps forward versus a person aiming for massive sweeping change - it's fairly easy to conclude Hillary is more realistic with her goals and thus more likely to achieve pushing the needle forward no matter how slight.
So unless Bernie quickly gets acclimated to the reality that he either compromises his principles in places to get some other things he wants passed, then he will get nothing done at all. And then, since I can look at the big picture too, you're going to have insane backlash against how ineffectual the "Democratic Socialist" candidate is, he'll lose after one term, and then you'll have to wait generations for an actual socialist with some charisma who also has chance to pass legislation you want. Or you can proceed, and risk losing all in the name of a "conversation" and sending a message. Because I can't tell you how many Bernie supporters have said the same thing, that they want to send a "message."
Father_Brain
Banned
As someone who was around your age in '08 and supported Obama in the primary, but was much less idealistic about DC politics at the time: Sanders '16 is not Obama '08.
Not because single-payer health care is an achievable goal in the current Congress; not because Sanders is a perfect candidate. But rather, because Sanders' campaign and "political revolution" is actually founded entirely on issues that go well beyond his candidacy, whereas Obama's promised transformation was premised largely on a woefully naive faith in the power of his own charisma to win over recalcitrant Republicans - post-partisanship not just as a means to progressive policy ends, but in large part as an end in and of itself.
Win or lose the nomination (probably lose), that alone makes his candidacy a better starting point for actual long-term political change than what Obama offered eight years ago.
So the candidates have to reach out, but the supporters are ruining the conversation ...right?
I'm sorry but running as anti-establishment and a revolution will get you exactly that. I'll flat out say Bernie supporters who are loud on this forum do not give a shit about having a conversation. Hillary is establishment, therefore the enemy. It's incredible to watch the talking points just fly here. Debates and facts do not matter.
I'd be curious who you support, and I'd be happy to debate you in a reasonable manner.
Father_Brain
Banned
Nope. If any sizable percentage of Bernie supporters really despises Hillary so much as to refuse to vote for her in the general (and I very much doubt that that's the case, especially in the very likely scenario that they enlist Sanders as a surrogate), that's on her and her limitations as a candidate.
I'll be voting for Sanders in the primary, and whoever in the general.
As for where the responsibility to draw voters lay, yes, it lays with the candidates, not the voters. The voter's responsibility is to vote for who they think is the best candidate. The candidate is responsible for explaining to voters why they are that person.
And as a moderator who has watched both sides act in an awful fashion on these forums, your image of Bernie supporters as the only people acting like jerks is simply untrue. Many supporters in both camps are, here and elsewhere.
you should read a bernie thread sometime if you don't think that is said.
I never said "Only", it isn't black and white. I think Bernie fans are the most obnoxious and loudest on forums. Though in my proxy view of GAF and fark i can only speak on it. I hear Reddit is quite toxic due to bernie fans.
Has anyone done any polling to see what Bernie's supporters would do if their candidate lost? Because anecdotal evidence from message boards and Reddit don't really tell me anything on a significant scale.
People say shit on the internet all the time, doesn't mean they're representative of a majority (or even a significant minority).
googleplex
Member
This right here has been the most frustrating thing about these discussions in the last few weeks. More and more Bernie supporters have talked less about Sander's ideal. And have instead focused on painting Hillary has some sort of Monster. A Republican in progressive clothing.
excelsiorlef
Member
Why would you want Cruz to be strong?
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
There are Republicans on GAF.
hydragonwarrior
Member
Regardless of who wins, I know that both candidates are "left" enough to keep Obama's important policies in tact and the progressive vision will be maintained.
However, if Bernie wins, I certainly fucking hope his supporters go ALL out in trying to guarantee his win in the primary. The obvious attacks from Koch to Fox will be coming out at absolute full force, and that's not including his opponent.
However, if Bernie wins, I certainly fucking hope his supporters go ALL out in trying to guarantee his win in the primary. The obvious attacks from Koch to Fox will be coming out at absolute full force, and that's not including his opponent.
Thank you, yes we do exist. And Donald Trump would be a disaster imo.
excelsiorlef
Member
Why would they want Cruz to be strong?
FreedomFighter
Member
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
I suppose I just have more faith in Sanders being able to move us towards the change he wants, even if the movement is only incremental. I have to believe that a man who's been in government for over 20 years understands the notion of compromise if it gets you in the direction you want to go. At least Bernie will try to go for sweeping change though, with him we at least have the possibility.
We've settled enough in Washington. It's time to try for something better.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Christie's support would be far more likely to go to Kasich or Jeb! than to a far right wacko like Cruz. They're all basically in the same lane.
No real clue about Fiorina, because I have no real clue what base she was even tapping into.
No real clue about Fiorina, because I have no real clue what base she was even tapping into.
To be fair, that email is begging to be ridiculed.
benjipwns
Banned
If they're conservatives he's the best candidate by far. Trump isn't trustworthy on conservative issues, Rubio/Jeb are the same ol Washington establishment bullshit. Kasich isn't an actual candidate outside of NH and he's establishment bullshit too. Carson is asleep.
Though why they don't support Jim Gilmore is the real question.
You Know Nothing
Member
Fiorina was definitely courting the fringe.
plagiarize
Banned
It's something that could happen in that the rules don't stop it from happening, but it would be suicide, so it won't. The super delegate's eventual votes won't decide the candidate just as they never have.
Might their pledged votes sway voters towards a candidate that wouldn't have won otherwise? Sure. But they aren't going to over throw what the voters decided when they get to the convention.
You mean GOD-LIKE BUSINESSESMAN.
plagiarize
Banned
That change isn't happening with the president. The house and the senate are the ones blocking all the progressive stuff Obama has and is attempting. They're the problem that needs addressing if you want politics to change.
Obama went in hoping to change Washington. They just circled the wagons. I'm not sure what Sanders can realistically do that Obama couldn't.
This Bernie thing really is becoming a personality cult. crazy thing is im actually agreeing with Amir0x. Bernie us selling the idea of revolution without showing how he is going to achieve. here in the UK we have our own Bernie Jeremy Corybn elected because ordinary labour party members and people paying £5 to join the party could vote for the new leader. And people carried along with the idea of change smashing the banks etc elected him. One of the biggest things the have in common is Bernie is an independent only recently becoming a democrat whilst corby has always been a labour party member he has acted as an independent always going against the leadership. And he'll damn all bar losing big time to the tories if he is still the leader.
The worst thing is reading about pepole going to vote republican rather than vote for Hillary even though they have a democrat outlook. how can ye be so easily risk all that Obama has been able to achieve possible supreme court nominations etc I don't know. it really is disengous to suggest that Hillary is the same as a republican candidate
The worst thing is reading about pepole going to vote republican rather than vote for Hillary even though they have a democrat outlook. how can ye be so easily risk all that Obama has been able to achieve possible supreme court nominations etc I don't know. it really is disengous to suggest that Hillary is the same as a republican candidate
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
So there is no African-American who could fit that role? Ok.
Labour had its ass kicked before Corbyn and the reason the new leadership shuffle happened was because Labour needed some soul searching after the horrific defeat, so I don't see that as a convincing argument against Corbyn. Labour was losing anyways even with the establishment politicians.
Ogrekiller
Member
Yes.
of course there had to be a new leader. Miliband was shit but Corybn isn't the person to fix labour.
FreedomFighter
Member
Your first paragraph pretty much sums it up. Though I will say Gilmore has really been moving up. When this whole thing started he was back in like 16th place, now with Christie and Fiorina and the others out the man's up to 7th!
#Gilmentum
In the end it does not mean anything how dramatic or far reaching his "issues" are between candidates. I disagree with your premise about Obama again, but that's still besides the point. I'm only saying that that the candidates could be literal polar opposites, Bernie the biggest Marxist on Earth, and by thor's magic he could win the election - and still, nothing would be moved forward on that legislation he desires unless he does just what Obama did and Hillary is going to do... compromise. Other then that you're voting for SC nominations, some foreign policy issues and some executive orders that may or may not be overturned by a court that is hopefully more liberal at the time.
I do not think Bernie would be a better president than Obama simply because he has failed to even begin to recognize the types of concessions that must be made by someone in that position to get things done. And if concessions are a dirty word to his supporters, it's going to be even worse as they flee at the first sight of things not going their way because American politics simply does not work that way.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
While this is true, electing someone closer to your own views is always going to be better, because they'll move the conversation. Bernie might not be able to accomplish all that he wants, but he can at least shift the conversation further to the left on those issues.
And what he can actually do is a good argument for voting Bernie for me. He's more likely to nominate justices that are further left than Hillary's appointees would be. And the biggest argument is on foreign policy. I'd much rather have a non-interventionist like Bernie who wants to keep America out of wars and avoid putting soldiers into harms way than a hawk like Hillary Clinton. I'd consider foreign policy to be the biggest reason to support Bernie over Hillary, based on what the President can actually do.
Prodigal Son
Member
I think it's being overblown, honestly.
Leona Lewis
Banned
I can't believe I missed all the Twitter memes this past weekend.
Some gold on there.
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