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[Tommy DJ]

Idk, I find SBAF to be more realistic than head-fi some of the time. They are almost polar opposites in philosophy which is why I read both when looking for impressions on gear.

SBAF is pretty good with headphones because they actually investigate. They go full mental when it comes to amplification and DACs though.

I have no idea how they are, relatively speaking, so investigative when it comes to transducers/headphones yet go full subjectivist when it comes to amps and DACs.

And seriously guys, ZeosPantera is just as bad as your typical Head-Fi reviewer but he doesn't peddle $300 cables as a solution all of your life's problems at least he has that going for him.

 

[Antiwhippy]

He describes sound in a way that I don't really quite understand either but I dunno, I find him fun to listen to.

For youtube reviewers other than Tyll I really like lachlanlikesathing. Too bad he's on hiatus though.

 

[leng jai]

Somehow I've never heard of SBAF until now, will definitely check it out. I used to use Headfi a lot back in 2005 when I just got into headphones but these days I struggle to take much I read there seriously. The talk about DACs and cables is by far the worst - at least with actual headphones and amp synergy big differences are actually possible.

 

[SolarMystic]

Somehow I've never heard of SBAF until now, will definitely check it out. I used to use Headfi a lot back in 2005 when I just got into headphones but these days I struggle to take much I read there seriously. The talk about DACs and cables is by far the worst - at least with actual headphones and amp synergy big differences are actually possible.

I remember when I first joined there, a summit-fi endgame setup would consist of an hd650 and about $600 of amp/dac equipment.

Now people spend half that on cables.

EDIT: The nice thing now though, is that tech as improved a lot and an hd650 system costs much less as it used to for the same performance.

 

[thuway]

Somehow I've never heard of SBAF until now, will definitely check it out. I used to use Headfi a lot back in 2005 when I just got into headphones but these days I struggle to take much I read there seriously. The talk about DACs and cables is by far the worst - at least with actual headphones and amp synergy big differences are actually possible.

Agreed. You waltz into the DAP source gear part of the forum and you have people chomping at the bits to spend multi thousand dollar on MP3 players. It blows my mind.

 

[leng jai]

I remember when I first joined there, a summit-fi endgame setup would consist of an hd650 and about $600 of amp/dac equipment.

Now people spend half that on cables.

EDIT: The nice thing now though, is that tech as improved a lot and an hd650 system costs much less as it used to for the same performance.

Yeah when I started out the HD650s were the best headphones on the market and when the HD800 was introduced in 2009 the price seemed astronomical. Now you have several cans over the $2500 mark and somehow the HD800s have become the best "value" among the summit-fi headphones.

Agreed. You waltz into the DAP source gear part of the forum and you have people chomping at the bits to spend multi thousand dollar on MP3 players. It blows my mind.

I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone would by a $2000+ DAC or a $1500 DAP. I still feel like I spent too much by getting the Bifrost 4490.

 

[SolarMystic]

Yeah when I started out the HD650s were the best headphones on the market and when the HD800 was introduced the in 2009 the price seemed astronomical. Now you have several cans over the $2500 mark and somehow the HD800s have become the best "value" among the summit-fi headphones.



I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone would by a $2000+ DAC or a $1500 DAP. I still feel like I spent too much by getting the Bifrost 4490.

Everyone wanted a piece of the pie now that they realized they could charge $1k+ on a headphone and people would buy it.

 

[Waikis]

Yeah when I started out the HD650s were the best headphones on the market and when the HD800 was introduced the in 2009 the price seemed astronomical. Now you have several cans over the $2500 mark and somehow the HD800s have become the best "value" among the summit-fi headphones.



I don't think I'll ever understand why anyone would by a $2000+ DAC or a $1500 DAP. I still feel like I spent too much by getting the Bifrost 4490.

For me it's a bit of upgradeitis and a bit of squeezing that last detail/sound.

I started small and kept trading my gears to a better one. Do that over a long period of time and bam suddenly you have a 4k dac.

 

[Antiwhippy]

You know while I do like my mojo a lot I have absolutely no interest in any of Chord's other stuff.

I feel like it's pretty much the only sensible product from them.

I really like how funky the DAVE looks though, I'll give them that.

 

[leng jai]

For me it's a bit of upgradeitis and a bit of squeezing that last detail/sound.

I started small and kept trading my gears to a better one. Do that over a long period of time and bam suddenly you have a 4k dac.

I've had "upgradeitis" ever since I got into audio but I've never had any enthusiasm when it comes to high end DACs. I've gone through over 10+ headphones and each time there's been obvious differences. Amps to a lesser extent.

Personally there's zero chance of me spending even $1000 on something that could potentially sound almost the same as what I already have. There's just always something so much better to allocate your funds to than a DAC that costs thousands of dollars. I just don't get it. There's not even much difference with this Bifrost 4490 compared to my ancient DACMagic.

 

[Waikis]

I've had "upgradeitis" ever since I got into audio but I've never had any enthusiasm when it comes to high end DACs. I've gone through over 10+ headphones and each time there's been obvious differences. Amps to a lesser extent.

Personally there's zero chance of me spending even $1000 on something that could potentially sound almost the same as what I already have. There's just always something so much better to allocate your funds to than a DAC that costs thousands of dollars. I just don't get it. There's not even much difference with this Bifrost 4490 compared to my ancient DACMagic.

But what happens when everything else has been fully upgraded?

For me, moving from mhdt paradisea to nad m51 was huge, less so from m51 to my current dac.

You should compare the bifrost to yggy if you have the chance.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Having auditioned kilobuck amp and dacs I still feel like you're not going to get a night and day difference unless you're listening to something that specifically colours the sound, like tubes.

Certain aspects are refined, but if properly driven the headphones are still the biggest factor.

 

[Waikis]

Having auditioned kilobuck amp and dacs I still feel like you're not going to get a night and day difference unless you're listening to something that specifically colours the sound, like tubes.

Certain aspects are refined, but if properly driven the headphones are still the biggest factor.

No one here has ever tried to say otherwise. I think we are past that point already on this thread.

I'm just saying that when you are so used to your gear, even the smallest change can feel huge (eg whoa never heard that detail before).
But if you have only spent only 5 minutes with either gears, they will feel the differences to be underwhelming (and you wouldn't be wrong!) because in the grand scale of thing, that 5% of extra oomph really isn't all game changing.

However, for someone who truly wants to squeeze the very last drop of improvement and has spent a lot of time with their gear, that 5% becomes something worthwhile.

 

[SolarMystic]

You know while I do like my mojo a lot I have absolutely no interest in any of Chord's other stuff.

I feel like it's pretty much the only sensible product from them.

I really like how funky the DAVE looks though, I'll give them that.

You mean you don't find the Hugo a sensible product? ;p

But what happens when everything else has been fully upgraded?

For me, moving from mhdt paradisea to nad m51 was huge, less so from m51 to my current dac.

You should compare the bifrost to yggy if you have the chance.

What happens is you save a lot of money going forward, maybe try new headphones.

Or not, but that's what I plan to do. I've got other hobbies that need funding!

 

[j-wood]

That's the exact issue I've always had with the Solo 2's, compounded by the fact that I'm a large-headed glasses wearer.

I recently owned some Studios for a while, and also found them rather tight on my head. They're more comfy than the Solo 2 though, but not as much as I thought they might be. The sound isn't quite as punchy as the Solo 2's, but it still has the same sound signature. Also, the noise cancelling on the studios is poor, and causes a prominent hissing sound whenever music isn't playing. I'd highly recommend demoing some studios at length before taking the plunge.

EDIT: Thuway, thank you for linking Z-reviews. Even though he doesn't always use proper terminology and sometimes gets carried away in his enthusiasm, he is by far my favorite youtube audio reviewer.

Hmm, I'll try and demo them today then. I'm not sure the hissing I would notice, as I feel like every pair of NC does that

 

[SolarMystic]

Ok, so asking for advice on head-fi about $3-450 amps and I get recommended a $2000 amp.

So I'm going to ask here. I've settled on my hd650 as my end game open headphone (still searching for that closed), so I'm wanting to build my end game, final system around it. (I'll still buy other headphones though)

I was thinking something like the Valhalla 2 or Lyr 2. I also found someone selling the original Burson Soloist for $450 in good shape, but idk how I feel buying something used for so much.

I've heard from some the Valhalla 2 will sound better with my hd650 than the Lyr 2, but the Lyr will be more flexible. Other solid suggestions welcomed.

We've got some enthusiasts in here, what do you guys think?

 

[FoxSpirit]

Never underestimate you willingness to either hear differences or ignore them. Everything that carries the label "slightly" is highly prone to be nothing.

SolarMystic, since Schiit has moneyback, try the Valhalla 2.

 

[SolarMystic]

Never underestimate you willingness to either hear differences or ignore them. Everything that carries the label "slightly" is highly prone to be nothing.

SolarMystic, since Schiit has moneyback, try the Valhalla 2.

Just got the approval from Schiit to send my Vali 2 back and avoid restocking by moving up the chain.

Valhalla 2 is the one I'm strongly leaning towards.

This should be a better pairing than with the Lyr 2 correct?

 

[Afro]

Damn, the Lepai LP-2020A+ is a little monster!! $25 my ass lol

 

[HiResDes]

Just got the approval from Schiit to send my Vali 2 back and avoid restocking by moving up the chain.

Valhalla 2 is the one I'm strongly leaning towards.

This should be a better pairing than with the Lyr 2 correct?

Have you ever thought about building a Bottlehead amp?

 

[SolarMystic]

Have you ever thought about building a Bottlehead amp?

I have, but have 0 experience in anything that would be involved in putting one together.

 

[Xander51]

Hmm, I'll try and demo them today then. I'm not sure the hissing I would notice, as I feel like every pair of NC does that

You're right that every pair of ANC headphones produces some hissing, but the Studios produce the most I've ever heard. It made it sound like it was raining outside my apartment. Also, Tyll noticed that if the earcups become occluded at all, they start to make a whooshing/whomping sound thanks to the poor ANC. That article is referring to the wireless model, but the wired one does the exact same thing.

 

[j-wood]

You're right that every pair of ANC headphones produces some hissing, but the Studios produce the most I've ever heard. It made it sound like it was raining outside my apartment. Also, Tyll noticed that if the earcups become occluded at all, they start to make a whooshing/whomping sound thanks to the poor ANC. That article is referring to the wireless model, but the wired one does the exact same thing.

Well, I just demoed them and you weren't kidding. The hiss is pretty real and also, they don't have the same punch that the Solo 2's do.

I just had LASIK so I don't have the glasses problem anymore, I think I can deal and my ears will just get used to it. Love them otherwise.

 

[Waikis]

Just got the approval from Schiit to send my Vali 2 back and avoid restocking by moving up the chain.

Valhalla 2 is the one I'm strongly leaning towards.

This should be a better pairing than with the Lyr 2 correct?

Yes, the valhalla 2 is designed for high impedance cans.

 

[leng jai]

But what happens when everything else has been fully upgraded?

For me, moving from mhdt paradisea to nad m51 was huge, less so from m51 to my current dac.

You should compare the bifrost to yggy if you have the chance.

Don't you have other hobbies or expenses? No matter how you spin it dropping a few thousand dollars on a DAC is insane to me. Even your figure of 5% is pushing it, it's more like 2 to 0%.

 

[Hypron]

Don't you have other hobbies or expenses? No matter how you spin it dropping a few thousand dollars on a DAC is insane to me. Even your figure of 5% is pushing it, it's more like 2 to 0%.

Yeah, you could also spend the money to get a really good speaker and speaker amplifier set for when you don't want to wear headphones. It's bound to be a fairly big spare money sink haha.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Speakers can also reach pretty ridiculous levels though, especially when you want to play around with room acoustics.

Near field monitors are probably the best price to performance wise.

 

[Bloodember]

Does anyone have experience With the Soundblaster X7 and the Schiit Modo 2 Uber/Magi 2 Uber combo? I'm looking into getting one of these, just not sure which one. I like the X7 because it can use passive speakers as for the Schiit stack, I've just heard good things about them. Which setup would be better? They will be hooked to my computer and be the sole audio solution for it. It'll be for gaming and listening to music mostly.

If you need to know I listen to mostly Korean and Japanese female pop artists, some rock and some metal.

Right now I use the Practical Devices X6 with the Wolfson 8471 DAC and the AD8397 amp. I like it, just moving it to my portable solution.

 

[Waikis]

Don't you have other hobbies or expenses? No matter how you spin it dropping a few thousand dollars on a DAC is insane to me. Even your figure of 5% is pushing it, it's more like 2 to 0%.

Yes, I do..

I'm just replying to your comment earlier how you can't comprehend someone spending thousands on DAC alone. In my case, it is more about incrementally upgrading my gears for the past 12 or so years. $4000 over the course of 12 years isn't that bad when you consider the amount of money gaffers spend on video games alone in a single year. Plus, audio gears actually retain their resale value quite well!

 

[FoxSpirit]

Speakers can also reach pretty ridiculous levels though, especially when you want to play around with room acoustics.

Near field monitors are probably the best price to performance wise.

If you want a very very good speaker for a fair price, here is your one chance in the world:
http://www.xtzsound.com/product/divine-series
Take the 100.49, then drop the other cash wad for a NAD Master M22 poweramp.
Feed from your PC, get a Dayton measurement mic, EQ the room with EqualizerAPO.

A little over 11k but in return, you will get sound near the possible. A slightly slightly dampened room is a must, as is breathing room from side walls. You will also need to play around to get optimal room EQ or good, potent bass will sound terrible.

Now, back to: who wants to buy Sennheiser's Orpheus?

 

[Tommy DJ]

What on earth are you guys looking at when it comes to speakers? Speakers are less expensive and more to do whether or not you know what you're doing and whether or not you can be bothered to get it right.

Speakers aren't that expensive really...like a setup I'd consider high end would be:
- Active speakers that aren't shit like Adam A7X, Event Opal, Neumann KH120a.
- Passive pre-amp.
- DAC of your choice.
- Room correction software.
- Like four 2ft by 4ft acoustic panels with a thickness of a few inches.

Like I can do all of that for probably like $3,000-$5,000 I think? Costs less than a TOTL headphone setup considering the "amplification" is always like $2,000 or something crazy.

If you must go for passive speakers, then ditch the speaker suggestion and choose:
- Like a ~$1,000 power amp, like a Crest Audio CA2, or half decent integrated amplifier. The Crest is better than any of the shit you get from Cryus or Arcam that's for sure.
- Good speakers that aren't using first order crossovers or something similarly laughable. Like there's some sealed cabinet ATC bookshelves selling for $1,300 at stereo.net.au and that's pretty much baller tier as far as speakers go.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I'm just using $40 logitech speakers.

Which is not bad for the price I must say.

 

[Xander51]

Well, I just demoed them and you weren't kidding. The hiss is pretty real and also, they don't have the same punch that the Solo 2's do.

I just had LASIK so I don't have the glasses problem anymore, I think I can deal and my ears will just get used to it. Love them otherwise.

Right on, glad you were able to demo them before making a switch!

 

[Waikis]

What on earth are you guys looking at when it comes to speakers? Speakers are less expensive and more to do whether or not you know what you're doing and whether or not you can be bothered to get it right.

Speakers aren't that expensive really...like a setup I'd consider high end would be:
- Active speakers that aren't shit like Adam A7X, Event Opal, Neumann KH120a.
- Passive pre-amp.
- DAC of your choice.
- Room correction software.
- Like four 2ft by 4ft acoustic panels with a thickness of a few inches.

Does room correction software fix reflection issues due to asymmetrical room set up?
My right speaker is close to the wall while the left one is an open space.

 

[Tommy DJ]

Depends on the software in question. Some software like Sonarworks' VST plugin IIRC and Dirac Live will ask for you to do multiple measurements from several locations to best determine what is actually going on in your room. Dirac Live is cool as it corrects not only the frequency response but also the time domain. This means it doesn't only smooth out the frequency response but it also improves the decay characteristics of your listening location...so you could argue that some room correction software can deal with room reflections.

But I don't think you can properly deal with room modes with just software. You need panels, traps and proper positioning to really manage that. Like you can't really stop bass from flubbing around the room without traps and you can achieve proper imaging without proper speaker positioning in relation to listening position.

But even if your room is pretty rubbish, room correction software can severely improve the quality of your speakers. The good software produce results that are actually day and night different. Like the sort that is dead easy to tell in a blind test.

So it's not a magic bullet but I'd say the good solutions in the market are able to improve speaker performance far more than any piece of hardware could ever dream of doing. Unlike with hardware, I can't think of a reason not to use room correction software unless you're one of those people completely allergic to digital.

Generally you want to pair good room correction software with some minor pieces of acoustic hardware (some wood frames, canvas, and rock wool from Bunnings does the job well enough really), with actually good speakers.

The good thing about good speakers are that they are generally able to maintain a smooth response regardless of your room. My JBL LSR305 pair that I use in my office only cost me $350 and is basically flat above 200hz. Certain active speakers, like the Neumann KH120a, also have inbuilt step adjustments which let you adjust how they perform based on their position in the room.

 

[SolarMystic]

Dropped out of the red k7xx drop at the last minute. Decided I don't really need it when I've already got the hd650.

Going to save that money for an amp purchase and wait for the th-x00 to drop again.

 

[DagsJT]

Any recommendations on earphones that have a bit of decent bass? I have some JLab Epic Bluetooth earphones which sound great but looking for a wired pair with a similar sound.

I'm also not a fan of the cable over the ear so would want a pair where the cable hangs straight down.

Budget is around £60.

 

[HiResDes]

Any recommendations on earphones that have a bit of decent bass? I have some JLab Epic Bluetooth earphones which sound great but looking for a wired pair with a similar sound.

I'm also not a fan of the cable over the ear so would want a pair where the cable hangs straight down.

Budget?

 

[DagsJT]

Budget?

Realised just now I didn't put a budget so added. £60 I'm thinking.

Any experience of Pump Audio?

 

[HiResDes]

Realised just now I didn't put a budget so added. £60 I'm thinking.

Any experience of Pump Audio?

No, and I don't think I will unless they change their current offerings, impressions are that they are all bass and not much else.


I'd recommend these http://www.lendmeurears.com/consonance-pro/

 

[DagsJT]

No, and I don't think I will unless they change their current offerings, impressions are that they are all bass and not much else.


I'd recommend these http://www.lendmeurears.com/consonance-pro/

Excellent. I have a pair of VS3DS's from LMUE already so happy to order from them again

 

[RoninChaos]

Just got the approval from Schiit to send my Vali 2 back and avoid restocking by moving up the chain.

Valhalla 2 is the one I'm strongly leaning towards.

This should be a better pairing than with the Lyr 2 correct?

I have a valhalla 2 with my 650s and I think it sounds fucking awesome.

 

[SolarMystic]

I have a valhalla 2 with my 650s and I think it sounds fucking awesome.

It is the way I'm heavily leaning. I'm on the cusp of deciding to sell my 400i, which is my only headphone that would probably sound terrible out of the Valhalla.

I've got until tomorrow to make the decision.

Just to add to the pot, I could also get the Mjolnir (version 1) as it is at a pretty sweet closeout price of $500. I'll have to recable my hd650 to balanced, but that is no problem.

Hard to find impressions comparing those two, particularly with using the hd650 specifically.

 

[HiResDes]

I think the Little Dot MKIII would sound great too if you're thinking about going full tube. Also there's the Project Sunrise III or Ember II, but those are more hybrids

 

[FoxSpirit]

What on earth are you guys looking at when it comes to speakers? Speakers are less expensive and more to do whether or not you know what you're doing and whether or not you can be bothered to get it right.

Speakers aren't that expensive really...like a setup I'd consider high end would be:
- Active speakers that aren't shit like Adam A7X, Event Opal, Neumann KH120a.
- Passive pre-amp.
- DAC of your choice.
- Room correction software.
- Like four 2ft by 4ft acoustic panels with a thickness of a few inches.

Like I can do all of that for probably like $3,000-$5,000 I think? Costs less than a TOTL headphone setup considering the "amplification" is always like $2,000 or something crazy.

If you must go for passive speakers, then ditch the speaker suggestion and choose:
- Like a ~$1,000 power amp, like a Crest Audio CA2, or half decent integrated amplifier. The Crest is better than any of the shit you get from Cryus or Arcam that's for sure.
- Good speakers that aren't using first order crossovers or something similarly laughable. Like there's some sealed cabinet ATC bookshelves selling for $1,300 at stereo.net.au and that's pretty much baller tier as far as speakers go.

What am I looking for? High Resolution, big soundstaging, smooth treble, tight, depp, taut bass, excellent between silent and very loud.

The Neumann is great in Nearfield but farfield the dispersion is a bit too wide for regular rooms and soundstaging as well as detailing suffers plus loud is not the thing the Neumann can do while sounding well. Plus I was posting in reference to the 4k DAC stuff, not a sensible suggestion ;-)

If I want price value here is my actual tip:
http://www.xtzsound.com/product/99-36-flr
In EU it's 1600 Euro-bucks the pair. Components are about as good as you can wish.
Power-Amp:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-ice125
Take this and shove it into a box, now you have a really really good amp and a minisdsp to boot. Don't like the MiniDSP? Just take the IcePower module, buy a wire harness at Ghent audio and shove it into a box.

€2000, all the the sound you could want+DSP (though MiniDSP can introduce light noise, not sure how it is on the plate).

Sorry for the derail.

Best regards, Chris

 

[SolarMystic]

I think the Little Dot MKIII would sound great too if you're thinking about going full tube. Also there's the Project Sunrise III or Ember II, but those are more hybrids

Bought the Valhalla 2. I've had numerous good experiences with Schiits products and the Valhalla 2 was always in the same sentence as the BH Crack w/ Speedball when talking about the best amps for Senn hd600, 650 and 800. (In the sub $1k category)

This is going to have the pleasant side effect of curbing my addiction to buying so many headphones, as most will not be so great out of the Valhalla as it is an OTL amp. My 400i is getting sold and the rest of my headphones are easily driven, so they will sound fine out the Valhalla.

I'll probably end up with a Polaris or Asgard (hopefully Asgard 3 by then) sometime next year or something. I'm not sure as I don't really care much right now. My hd650 is my endgame so I'm building my system around that headphone.

May just buy a used Magni 2 for $70 if I need to drive something my Valhalla can't take care of. I considered the Lyr 2 as it can drive everything under the Sun, but the Valhalla pairs better with the hd650 than the Lyr according to people who have had both.

Pictures will be incoming! Going to look kinda funny with my tiny Modi next to the Valhalla. I almost got the Mjolnir but I would literally have nowhere to put that giant slab of aluminum.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Wait, I thought it was the other way round, where otl amps are better for hard to drive headphones?

 

[SolarMystic]

Wait, I thought it was the other way round, where otl amps are better for hard to drive headphones?

For high impedance yes. Stuff like 300ohm Senns and Beyers. Orthos need more current and the Valhalla will not provide that as most orthos are around 35-75ohm.

Something like a Grado doesn't need a whole lot of juice and will sound fine out of an OTL, even though there is not as much power being driven into them as a standard SS or hybrid amp would provide. As most of my other headphones are super easy to drive and don't really even benefit from an amp (they simply color the sound) I shouldn't have any issues using an OTL with them, especially since the Valhalla 2 has an output impedance of 3.5ohm on low gain.

I should only have an issue if I try to use my IEMs (not gonna happen) or I buy another ortho down the line. Since they are low impedance, the Valhalla will not output very much power into them and orthos like power. Most typically benefit from 1w or higher.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Hmm, so if I'm to understand, it can deliver the proper current at higher impedances but isn't as good at delivering current at lower impedances?

 

[SolarMystic]

Hmm, so if I'm to understand, it can deliver the proper current at higher impedances but isn't as good at delivering current at lower impedances?

Correct. For example, the Valhalla 2 delivers 800mw at 300ohm and only 180mw at 50ohm.

Here is the product page. Goes a little more in depth. Link