Optimistic
Member
PistonHodnamn said:
Precisely. And to add to that, when the Lakers are "lucky" pretty much every game it stops being "luck" and starts being "skill".
The Official Kobe vs MJ Fight Thread
- Thread starter DMczaf
- Start date
- Status
Precisely. And to add to that, when the Lakers are "lucky" pretty much every game it stops being "luck" and starts being "skill".
How about the most obvious foul by prince on kobe in the 4th that wasnt called? Or the phantom flop by B. Wallace for Shaq's 5th and no it wasnt a charge. That was almost as good as some of Floppy Divac's greatest flops. Yet all i hear is Refs this Refs that, B.S!
EDIT: Malone might just be out of it for the next game. Someone plz SLAP THE SHIT out of G.P lookin like someone stole his candy sitting on the bench.
EDIT: Malone might just be out of it for the next game. Someone plz SLAP THE SHIT out of G.P lookin like someone stole his candy sitting on the bench.
Loki said:Dude, I live and breathe ball-- it's been my life for 15 years now.Yes, I have my, err, "moments", but I have strong opinions on how the game should be played (and on just about everything else, too
).
That much is obvious. The Jordan diatribes get old after awhile though. One could argue (it won't be me, I don't have the stamina nor do I like Kobe) that Jordan never had a "Shaq" to share the ball with and as such Kobe's scoring average will never approach that of Jordan's.
I myself would argue that even if Kobe DOES approach Jordan's marks, Jordanophiles will regress to the career averages. That's something Kobe can NEVER touch because of his HS years of averaging 10 points a game.
Jordan was unbelievable. Are you so insecure that Kobe might actually win more titles than Jordan that it will blight Jordan's records? Bill Russell won more titles, (33% more than that degenerate gambler Jordan), Kareem scored more points, but Jordan is still the
"Best Player Ever." For my money, I'd pay to see Bird in his prime over Jordan, but I'm biased. I prefer the T-Ds of Bird and Magic over the One Man Show.
I just don't see why you are always there to defend Jordan's legacy. It doesn't NEED defending, and fans (fanatics) like yourself cause people like me to pull FOR Kobe, even if we don't really like them. Just enjoy the game, and focus on players still playing.
Kobe's no Jordan, anyone over 12 can see/remember that. It really doesn't matter how many Kobe wins, he'll never be Jordan. Just be happy with that.
DJ_Tet said:
No, not at all-- in fact, I've argued AGAINST that very conclusion on these same boards before, because people like Konex and Bionic are so quick to go to the "he'll have 4 rings at age 26 and Jordan didn't even have one" angle. In my estimation, a player's worth is judged by several factors, most notably (and not in any order): stats, winning/rings, clutch play, consistency, and longevity. Kobe has one of these, which is a greater # of rings (for his age). He's about 80-90% as clutch as Jordan was, though he's better at the "big shot" than he is at other aspects of "clutchness" (which I won't get into, as I have a ton of work to do). Beyond those two, however (and it's HIGHLY debatable that Kobe will win another two rings after the one he'll get this year unless he and Shaq stay together), he has absolutely nothing on Jordan. I guess I'm just baffled at how ANYONE could have seen both of them play and come to the conclusion that Kobe is better, and so I tend to say so.
Is Kobe the closest thing that there's been to Jordan since Jordan? Sure. But he's not even close. Well, I shouldn't say that-- on an overall player scale, he's about 75-80% of what Jordan was. Kobe's defenders like to say that "eventually" he'll be considered better when he wins more rings etc.; what they fail to realize is that that remaining 20-25% has nothing at all to do with rings, or even last-second shots. And Kobe would have to show me a HELL of a lot to erase that deficit. It means shooting better than 47% for a season. It means shooting better than 42% in the playoffs. It means winning without Shaq. It means willing your team to win each and every time.And all that's gonna take years for him, if he ever even does it. Just my take on things (but you all knew this
). Glad to see we're in agreement, then.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
holy shit this game made me sick...
almost as sick as the derek fisher .4, but not quite because i thought it was physically impossible to get a shot off in .4 so that came as even more of a shock.
i don't know why rip didn't foul him, or at LEAST play right up in his face. i mean for gods sake what is kobe going to do at that point?? drive it to the lane? let him!
anyways long story short the pistons choked this game away, and i will be shocked if they win the series at this point. not because they don't have the talent or resolve, but this loss is devestating... opportunity lost!
almost as sick as the derek fisher .4, but not quite because i thought it was physically impossible to get a shot off in .4 so that came as even more of a shock.
i don't know why rip didn't foul him, or at LEAST play right up in his face. i mean for gods sake what is kobe going to do at that point?? drive it to the lane? let him!
anyways long story short the pistons choked this game away, and i will be shocked if they win the series at this point. not because they don't have the talent or resolve, but this loss is devestating... opportunity lost!
naz said:damn I can't see shit
http://www.nba.com/popups/vidPopup_...ge=&adSponsor=nestle®Location=&reload=true
That was intense, Luke Walton plays with incredible poise for someone who is only a rookie.
Items that have jumped the shark:
Whining about the Lakers/Ref conspiracy - It doesn't exist as was evidence by phantom calls on both sides and lack of calls on both sides last night.
Proclaiming Kobe as the next Jordan - He isn't, he's the next Kobe.
The term Fakers - give it a rest haterz.
Items that have jumped the shark:
Whining about the Lakers/Ref conspiracy - It doesn't exist as was evidence by phantom calls on both sides and lack of calls on both sides last night.
Proclaiming Kobe as the next Jordan - He isn't, he's the next Kobe.
The term Fakers - give it a rest haterz.
Ninja Scooter
Member
DarienA said:
WORD. There are times when people might have legit gripes about the reffing, but those times are few and far between, as much as the haters might hate to hear that, its the TRUTH. And you can just tell when they are just reaching trying to make ordinary calls look like some kind of David Stern conspiracy. "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT PLAY ON KOBE OMG REFS TRYING TO HAND LAKERS THE GAME! DID YOU SEE HOW KOBE LOOKED AT THE REF HE SHOULD HAVE GOT A TECH WTFELIIUAOIUEORJF?!?!?!"
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
the more i think about it the more i realize this series is likely over now... game 3 is a MUST WIN game for detroit. i know it would only be a 2-1 series if they lost, but they need to get that momentum back immediately
Ninja Scooter
Member
but like all you laker haters were so kind to point out after Detroit won game 1, even Philly kept every game relatively close while LA was beating them 4 in a row in the 2001 Finals. LAKER HATER SPIN COUNTER REVERSE +10.
FrenchMovieTheme
Member
its a little different piston. the sixers never "blew" a lead like the pistons. yeah, it was heartbreaking the way the sixers lost with those triples, but nothing like this. physically the pistons are the better team, they now need to get over that mental hump and say "well, we wanted to get 1 of 2, shoulda been 2 of 2, but lets move on".
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
No matter what you want to say about the refs or anything else, this loss rests squarely on Larry Brown. It boggles the mind that he would let LA's best player take the one shot that could extend the game, especially when Walton and Shaq (Shaq!) both handled the ball inside the 3 pt line before Kobe got it. Or even failing that, double team the shit out of Kobe if he gets it beyond the arc, make him pass. And yes it didn't work for the Spurs but that was 1 in a million. You've got to play the percentages and foul somebody before they take a 3.
If the Pistons come back from this pooch screw, they will have my respect. I really doubt it now though.
If the Pistons come back from this pooch screw, they will have my respect. I really doubt it now though.
If i'm the Pistons, i'd be very happy right now. It should have been 2-0, but if you look at the Lakers, they are playing totally out of sync. Shaq and Kobe are really the only ones doing anything offensively, with maybe a significant contribution from a role player a quarter or two every other game. It's amazing how much praise these players get for hitting a few wide, wide, wide open jump shots in a row, when for the rest of the series they were shooting 3-12 (or something) and not contributing anything else. I don't think the standard for giving praise to a players has ever been as low as it is now for any Laker role player. That said, Walton was still impressive last night because he created shots for himself and others, which no other Laker besides Shaq and Kobe can do.
Defensively, they are reverting back to poor defense. The most puzzling player is Shaq...who was dominant defensively during the last two series, but now is seemingly focusing all his energy scoring and his rebounding and blocking has gone way down. He only got 7 rebounds last night, which is totally inexcusable, and is partially responsible for the Pistons getting all those offensive boards. I think that at this point in his career, he is more effective playing that 19 points, 19 rebounds style that he showed in the SA series than he is looking to score every time down the floor. Reason being (besides that he is less effective scoring than he was two years ago) is that he is not drawing the triple teams he used to, so everyone else is just standing around. In the backcourt, Kobe is doing his best to guard both Rip and Chauncey, because Fisher is injured (and is too small anyways) and Payton....i'll get to him in a second, actually. Anyways, Kobe is doing a good job, IMO, and his defense in the first half of Game 2 was a big reason the Lakers built that 10 point cushion.
Ok, getting back to Payton....never have I seen a poorer postseason performance from a supposed 'star' or whatever. It's not just that he is doing NOTHING offensively or defensively, but that he is actively hurting the Lakers. He makes terrible decesions everywhere, get beaten straight up (this is not a case of Shaq not switching on the pick and rolls this time....there goes that excuse) by every point guard he meets, pouts on the bench, does not root for his teammates, and is generally the most unlikeable guy in the NBA. Malone has been largely ineffective too, because of age and injuries, but he is a great team guy, so the Lakers can live with him missing 10 million open shots.
If i'm the Pistons, I continue to do what i'm doing, except that i'd take advanatge of Sheed on Malone more....there was a portion in game 2 where he was destroying Malone, but they went away from him. On defense, they need to find a way to prevent Kobe from splitting the trap and going down the middle, as he did for half a dozen plays at the end of game 2.
And please, i've been involved in it before, but stop the Kobe/MJ comparison fights. It's just so stupid...why get so defensive about an off hand comment someone makes while celebrating the end of a game? Bleh, it's hopeless, this will never end And thus, i'll add fuel to the fire...
I do find this quote from Bill Simmon's chat going on now interesting, though, if only because it is exactly what I once tried to argue to a certain fan of 80s elitism
Now, this is coming from someone who knows and watched a lot more about 80s NBA than anyone here. Actually, I find this interesting not because of the Kobe/MJ comparison aspect, but because I have always argued that defense is a ton a better now than it ever was, and people who think otherwise are caught up in nostalgia. Simply put, NBA players are so much bigger and more athletic now, and that is a MUCH bigger advantage on defense than it is on offense, hence the style of play we see now.
The Kobe/MJ comparison can't be done now. Kobe needs his own team and then we can see what happens, but at this point he hasn't shown nearly the consistency in carrying his team year in and year out that Jordan did. Also, I think he lacks a couple of things (large hands for one) that will prevent him from being at Jordan's level. That said, he is still extremely impressive and his shot last night was pretty amazing. It's also a shot that Jordan could never make himself (never had that range)....but it is still one shot.
EDIT- About not fouling on the last play....what the hell were they thinking? They should have fouled ANYONE (including Kobe) with the ball as long as they were within the three point line. If the player makes two free throws, fine. Because the Lakers didn't have another time out, a 1 point lead with 5 seconds left would have been a guaranteed victory. Just a stupid, stupid defensive play.
Defensively, they are reverting back to poor defense. The most puzzling player is Shaq...who was dominant defensively during the last two series, but now is seemingly focusing all his energy scoring and his rebounding and blocking has gone way down. He only got 7 rebounds last night, which is totally inexcusable, and is partially responsible for the Pistons getting all those offensive boards. I think that at this point in his career, he is more effective playing that 19 points, 19 rebounds style that he showed in the SA series than he is looking to score every time down the floor. Reason being (besides that he is less effective scoring than he was two years ago) is that he is not drawing the triple teams he used to, so everyone else is just standing around. In the backcourt, Kobe is doing his best to guard both Rip and Chauncey, because Fisher is injured (and is too small anyways) and Payton....i'll get to him in a second, actually. Anyways, Kobe is doing a good job, IMO, and his defense in the first half of Game 2 was a big reason the Lakers built that 10 point cushion.
Ok, getting back to Payton....never have I seen a poorer postseason performance from a supposed 'star' or whatever. It's not just that he is doing NOTHING offensively or defensively, but that he is actively hurting the Lakers. He makes terrible decesions everywhere, get beaten straight up (this is not a case of Shaq not switching on the pick and rolls this time....there goes that excuse) by every point guard he meets, pouts on the bench, does not root for his teammates, and is generally the most unlikeable guy in the NBA. Malone has been largely ineffective too, because of age and injuries, but he is a great team guy, so the Lakers can live with him missing 10 million open shots.
If i'm the Pistons, I continue to do what i'm doing, except that i'd take advanatge of Sheed on Malone more....there was a portion in game 2 where he was destroying Malone, but they went away from him. On defense, they need to find a way to prevent Kobe from splitting the trap and going down the middle, as he did for half a dozen plays at the end of game 2.
And please, i've been involved in it before, but stop the Kobe/MJ comparison fights. It's just so stupid...why get so defensive about an off hand comment someone makes while celebrating the end of a game? Bleh, it's hopeless, this will never end
And thus, i'll add fuel to the fire...I do find this quote from Bill Simmon's chat going on now interesting, though, if only because it is exactly what I once tried to argue to a certain fan of 80s elitism
Now, this is coming from someone who knows and watched a lot more about 80s NBA than anyone here. Actually, I find this interesting not because of the Kobe/MJ comparison aspect, but because I have always argued that defense is a ton a better now than it ever was, and people who think otherwise are caught up in nostalgia. Simply put, NBA players are so much bigger and more athletic now, and that is a MUCH bigger advantage on defense than it is on offense, hence the style of play we see now.
The Kobe/MJ comparison can't be done now. Kobe needs his own team and then we can see what happens, but at this point he hasn't shown nearly the consistency in carrying his team year in and year out that Jordan did. Also, I think he lacks a couple of things (large hands for one) that will prevent him from being at Jordan's level. That said, he is still extremely impressive and his shot last night was pretty amazing. It's also a shot that Jordan could never make himself (never had that range)....but it is still one shot.
EDIT- About not fouling on the last play....what the hell were they thinking? They should have fouled ANYONE (including Kobe) with the ball as long as they were within the three point line. If the player makes two free throws, fine. Because the Lakers didn't have another time out, a 1 point lead with 5 seconds left would have been a guaranteed victory. Just a stupid, stupid defensive play.
Bat said:
I totally agree dude, though the Jordaphiles in this chatroom don't really watch games anymore they all just furiously masturbate to Jordan DVDs and say that Jordan would rip it up in the league today. I would like to see MJ go down the lane with someone like Duncan guarding the rim. I really don't know who is better, but I think we can all agree that it would have been epic to see Kobe in his prime (2-3 years from now) face off against Jordan in his prime. I am as biased towards Kobe as the Jordaphiles are towards MJ. I was surprised to see that Wilbon actually made the comparison today in his column and said this performance by Kobe was as good or better then anything MJ ever did. This coming from a rabid Bulls fan who worships the ground that MJ walks on, whether or not you agree with Wilbon that is another thing, but it is something to think about .
Edit: And hindsight is 20/20 on what to have done in that last play. Everything was being done behind the three point line, so it wasn't out of the question for walton or shaq to chuck it up and try and tie the game at the free throw line. Granted that is a good play when Shaq has the ball, but defense got Detroit there and it makes sense to put the game in the hands of your defense when you have one of the best defenses in the NBA. You can't really fault the Defense on Kobe either, Kobe took a shot from like 3 feet behind the 3 point line, which is a terrible shot unless you make it, which thankfully he did.
I agree, GP is just garbage. The triangle offense is designed to get the open player shots and since GP can't/won't adjust to this by moving without the basketball, he ends up contributing nothing on offense. I personally think the Lakers get in trouble when they try to force stuff to get Karl and GP involved so hopefully Phil stays away from this.
Hell, they don't even need much scoring from GP. He just needs to cut down on his turnovers, move the ball and try to slow Billups down. I hate to say it but if he can't play within the offense, he needs to be benched. He gets no 4th quarter time cos he's becoming a liability on both sides of the ball. He keeps putting Billups on the line cos he can't stay in front of the guy. Billups who didn't smell 20 pts once in the last series has 49 in 2 games?!! Shit!!! If the Glove doesn't fit, dude needs to sit!!!
As far as Shaq's boards, he's been atrocious all season and if Karl can't go, it'll be a real problem for LA. Slava is an ok rebounder though and he'll do better than Karl on a bum knee (I hope lol). The biggest problem is boxing out by everyone. Kobe sometimes starts running down the court looking to cherry pick while Tay skies (over Shaq lol) for the offensive board.
And is it just me or shouldn't LB call more plays for Sheed? I really don't understand why Rip is the first option with Kobe all over him? Malone was getting abused by Sheed and when LA finally started to double, Rip got a wide open three...
The Pistons will go at Kobe hard in game 3 and the role players will get more opportunies. If they can hit their open shots, LA will have success...
Hell, they don't even need much scoring from GP. He just needs to cut down on his turnovers, move the ball and try to slow Billups down. I hate to say it but if he can't play within the offense, he needs to be benched. He gets no 4th quarter time cos he's becoming a liability on both sides of the ball. He keeps putting Billups on the line cos he can't stay in front of the guy. Billups who didn't smell 20 pts once in the last series has 49 in 2 games?!! Shit!!! If the Glove doesn't fit, dude needs to sit!!!
As far as Shaq's boards, he's been atrocious all season and if Karl can't go, it'll be a real problem for LA. Slava is an ok rebounder though and he'll do better than Karl on a bum knee (I hope lol). The biggest problem is boxing out by everyone. Kobe sometimes starts running down the court looking to cherry pick while Tay skies (over Shaq lol) for the offensive board.
And is it just me or shouldn't LB call more plays for Sheed? I really don't understand why Rip is the first option with Kobe all over him? Malone was getting abused by Sheed and when LA finally started to double, Rip got a wide open three...
The Pistons will go at Kobe hard in game 3 and the role players will get more opportunies. If they can hit their open shots, LA will have success...
Ninja Scooter
Member
:lol nice defense, Rip! Hasn't he seen the shot Kobe hit against Portland with Ruben Patterson practically molesting him? You gotta do more than that if you want to try and stop Number 8.
Bat said:
You're kidding, right? Jordan has made NUMEROUS deep threes to tie/win games in his career, and I have about a dozen on tape myself from about 25+ feet out. Sometimes I wonder where people get this stuff from. Yes, Kobe is UNDOUBTEDLY a better and more consistent 3-point shooter than Jordan ever was over his career, but in terms of being able to make clutch deep 3's? Dude, he's done it MANY times. Let's not even talk about the numerous half-court shots (not heaves, with perfect jump-shot form).
As for the whole Kobe/Jordan thing, and that quote you pulled up about Jordan not being able to average 35 in today's NBA, well it's nonsense. Ignoring all the "skills" issues (i.e., who is the better shooter, rebounder, passer, more creative offensive player etc.), all one has to realize is two things:
1) Jordan was MUCH faster than Kobe is, on the order of about 1.5-2 times as quick in terms of his first step (explosiveness), changing directions, and raw speed in a straight line. Period. There's no room for discussion on this imo, and I will gladly pay air fare for anyone who'd care to come to my house and watch the tapes with me and compare similar moves/scenarios from both players.
2) Jordan was averaging 23 points/game nearly at age 40. Shooting a better % than Kobe did THIS YEAR (at age 25-26), to boot. You can make all the arguments you want about how the majority of those points were on "smarts" baskets or jumpers as opposed to dunks and drives, but it doesn't really matter-- if MJ was 26, he'd still be able to get in the lane at will and jam it on anyone. He was dominating this "new school" of player PHYSICALLY at age 39 and 40-- I have the tapes. Blowing by Cuttino Mobley and Jim Jackson, abusing KG several times for the dunk and layups, Shawn Marion OWNED for 45 points on an assortment of drives. You name it, he did it to them, ATHLETICALLY. No, he couldn't do it every game anymore like when he was 28, but he did it against this supposedly "superior" athletic talent.
To think that he wouldn't dominate in that exact same way today is ridiculous simply for THESE two reasons, even if you grant me nothing else. Kobe Bryant averaged 30 points last year, and TMac averaged 32-- are either of them anywhere NEAR as fast or explosive as Jordan? No. Do either of them have the hops of Jordan? No (though McGrady has incredible hang-time). And neither of them is as creative or aggressive offensively as Jordan was, either (though this is more subjective and I'm trying to keep this factual so far as possible). You're saying he couldn't average 3-6 points more than those guys? Come on now. What I love about Jordan is that he would have actually DONE it (if he were young)-- actually averaged 35 points/game in the current NBA-- just to shut guys like you up. He was a bad man that way.
And Bionic, you have to be KIDDING me if you think that a guy like Duncan is any better of a shot-blocker or defender than guys like Ewing, Olajuwon, Jabbar, Mark Eaton, Mutombo, Robinson etc. Jordan did it to ALL of those guys-- took it right at them. You think he'd shy away or get rejected by Duncan (every time)? You're nuts...
So I tend to look at it like that; the only time that somebody has ever even TRIED to speak to these points was when Bionic told me that I "am not an expert about who is faster etc." and that I wouldn't be able to know. That'd be true if it weren't PLAINLY OBVIOUS. If Kobe goes from the 3-point line on the wing to the basket for a dunk (like he did last night on one play), and Jordan does the same thing, MJ is VISIBLY quicker in every respect and every situation you can think of. So you're telling me that that added quickness (and hops and creativity and aggressiveness) wouldn't have added a measly 3-6 points to Jordan's average as compared to Kobe's if he played today? All that is is one basket and a couple of foul shots on, say, a drive where he got fouled. That's it. That's what that quickness WOULD DO, and I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. You think it wouldn't add a few points to his shooting %? Sure it would-- he'd have more layups and dunks and steals for breakaways. It'd add up over the course of a season.
The above is indisputable, unless you're going to argue that faster players don't get into the lane more; if you're going to argue that Kobe is as fast in ANY WAY as MJ was, well, I don't know what to tell you really. Jordan went wherever he wanted to on the court whenever he wanted to. He ran a 4.3 second 40-yard dash at North Carolina just because some of the guys said he couldn't do it. Think about that.
So all these hypothetical scenarios about how the defense today would stifle him etc. are nonsense. Take Kobe's #'s, add just a bit to them and voila, you have Jordan's old numbers. That "extra little bit" would come simply from his physical advantage imo-- nevermind his skills/creativity advantage and other stuff like the big hands. Kobe is the closest thing there's ever been to Jordan. But he's not Jordan, and never will be. But Kobe gives you the best glimpse of how MJ would've performed in today's NBA-- he would've performed just like Kobe....but a little better.
To my mind, these things are indisputable.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
Heh Young Jordan makes Kobe look slow by comparison, ain't even close.
Loki said:Loki: Anal Assassin
(But not in that way
To my mind, these things are indisputable.
I think that sums up perfectly. Seriously, you watching Jordan blow by guys who aren't 1/2 as athletic or big as guys today and then compare it your black hearted visions of Kobe Bryant is anything but scientific. And you only bring up the best moments of Jordan and always use those for your argument, somehow pretending that even the great MJ had bad games, bad moments, and made dumb plays. Like I said, I never really argued with you before because you seemed to have like every Jordan and Kobe move memorized, but then I was watching the ESPN Classics of all the Bull Championship teams and I saw Jordan fuck up more then once, get burned by the guy he was guarding more then a few times, and even see him get his shit blocked by a big ass Gorilla (The jersey said Ewing, but my eyes said otherwise). Whenever Kobe makes a single mistake or has a bad game you and the Jordaphiles all start high fiving and act like that ends the argument because in your Jordoworld Jordan never made a mistake or missed a shot when they were missing a championship. In fact, when I start arguing with the rest of the Jordos", you guys act like Jordan scored every single point for his team and was surrounded by WNBA talent, forget the fact that Jordan averaged something like 33 in the playoffs and the Bulls averaged something like 95+ (I guess the statistician just forgot to give Jordan credit for those other 60 points). In the end I personally still rate Jordan slightly higher then Kobe, but like I said before I see definite potential for Kobe to surpass MJ. Even if he does, I wouldn't consider him the greatest player of all time just for that, just ONE OF the greatest players of all time. We can't forget guys like Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Magic, and Kareem. Now go masturbate to some blurry ass Jordan tape you have recorded and come back with your amazing "scientific" arguments on why I am totally wrong.
bionic77 said:
Weaksauce.
I'm talking about "point A to point B" speed, either when they've already CLEARED the defender or in the open court. And that, my friend, is something that is capable of being seen. Speed in changing directions is also something which can be measured and perceived. And who the hell said he never made a mistake or had a bad game? Everyone does. But to go through an entire playoff run shooting 42% like Kobe has? Nah-- Jordan used to shoot like 48-49% against Pistons and Knicks teams that used to REGULARLY send 2-4 guys at him all game, and where he was the SOLE focal point. And those teams had some of the best individual defenders in history on them, too (Dumars, Rodman, Thomas, Gerald Wilkins, Derek Harper, John Starks).
And you are, in fact, totally wrong. I knew beforehand that the only thing you could possibly say is that I'm mistaken in believing that Jordan is much faster than Kobe. Unfortunately, most of us have eyes. And if you accept that (which you HAVE to do once you see it), then the rest of my points above logically follow. 3-6 points extra per game is not that much. Kobe's numbers are similar to Jordan's except that they're slightly lower across the board. Give Kobe a little speed boost and what do you think would happen to those numbers?
Loki, I don't think MJ could score 35 ppg like he used to in the same way. Could he score 35 ppg now? Yes, but he would be shooting a much lower percentage, much like the entire league is doing now. MJ average almost 55% FG shooting some years....he couldn't do that now. The long and athletic interior defenders would not allow that. Could he score 35 ppg while shooting a Kobe-like 45% (which is actually pretty good)? Yes....but there is a HUGE difference between that and doing what Jordan used to do in terms of efficiency. Also, there is a big, big difference in the NBA today between scoring 20 ppg and scoring 30 ppg. It's the difference between Kobe Bryant and Jerry Stackhouse. Sure, Jordan scored during his comeback....but he was almost never, ever double teamed (except those few nights he was in the zone and went for 40). Plus, in today's NBA if anyone is so good that they can score in the mid 30s so easily, the removal of illeagal defense makes it very possible to contain them.
And no Jordan would not have made that shot....he was a pretty bad three point shooter until late in his career, and he never took them with a guy in his face. The only three point game winner I can think he ever hit was during his sick game in 97, but that was a wide open shot following an offensive rebound. He just wasn't a good three point shooter...I think that's inarguable...
EDIT- Loki, your exaggerations on the defense Jordan faced in the 80s is absolutely ridiculous....to say the Knicks and Pistons sent 2-4 guys at Jordan regularly is a flat out lie. Even when someone flat out says Kobe is not what Jordan was, you still feel the need to exaggerate almost every single aspect of MJs game (and ignore that when he was shooting those high %, the entire league was, too....it was a product of the defense). It's really pointless...
And no Jordan would not have made that shot....he was a pretty bad three point shooter until late in his career, and he never took them with a guy in his face. The only three point game winner I can think he ever hit was during his sick game in 97, but that was a wide open shot following an offensive rebound. He just wasn't a good three point shooter...I think that's inarguable...
EDIT- Loki, your exaggerations on the defense Jordan faced in the 80s is absolutely ridiculous....to say the Knicks and Pistons sent 2-4 guys at Jordan regularly is a flat out lie. Even when someone flat out says Kobe is not what Jordan was, you still feel the need to exaggerate almost every single aspect of MJs game (and ignore that when he was shooting those high %, the entire league was, too....it was a product of the defense). It's really pointless...
Bat said:
Watch the games.
And Jordan wasn't double-teamed during his second run except when he was dropping 40? lol Man...I must be watching imaginary games, then.
And the Pistons and Knicks did indeed regularly send 2-4 (though 4 was rare and occurred moreso with Detroit) guys at MJ. Moreover, there are innumerable sequences where 3 and 4 (sometimes 5) defenders would be collapsed on Jordan (they didn't send those guys to him, but they all swarmed to help on the initial move), usually any time he got below the foul line in the lane.
I don't know what else to say, really-- you accuse me of exaggerating, but I have video that says otherwise. Chuck Daly on The Jordan Rules: "We used to send 2 and 3 guys to trap him every time he got the ball, and collapse on him and knock him down any time he got in the lane". Vinnie Johnson and Joe Dumars have said similar things in interviews, and the tapes bear it out.
If you think that anyone in league history besides Shaq has ever gotten as much defensive attention as Jordan did, well, you're kidding yourself.
And, for the last time, forget all the speculation about the "more athletic defenders" today-- ask yourself what sort of numbers Kobe Bryant would be putting up if he were much faster and could jump higher/longer. You somewhat answered that by saying that yes, MJ could average 35 points today, but he'd be shooting a similar % to Kobe, which on its face seems like a fair assessment, but I disagree. If you say he'd average 35 on perhaps 48% shooting, MAYBE I'd consider that that might be the case.
You forget also that Jordan was just always aggressive. Just the TYPES of moves he made and situations he created on offense were just incredible. Whenever he saw a seam, he took it; he used guys against one another to elude double-teams; he was a master at the change of pace and hesitation moves and had absolutely FLAWLESS footwork. In short, his offensive skills were much more polished than Kobe's, so beyond physical gifts, this would have helped him also.
Look at Kobe's new pet move: when he posts up, he arches his back to get a read on where the defender is and which way they're leaning. Know who the only player in history to have ever done that is? You guessed it: Jordan. He invented that. He also had a plethora of other little moves which easily relieved any defensive pressure that was being applied to him, either on the perimeter or the post. If he caught the ball coming out onto the wing with the defender behind him and his back was to the defender, he'd give the fastest little fake-spin "twitch" that you'll ever see, which would be enough to get the defender to bite a bit and back off, allowing MJ to face-up and utilize his other moves. Jordan's footwork, more than anything else imo, allowed him to excel as an offensive player. He never allowed the defense to dictate what he did offensively-- it was always the other way around.
Kobe does none of this. He's an excellent offensive player, reaction-wise, but he's nowhere near Jordan's skill level. I honestly wish we were all just sitting around watching the tapes, because then I could point out A, B and C-- because I love talking ball and I live for it.
As for the 3-point buzzer-beaters....watch the games. Hell, watch the "Michael Jordan's Playground" video alone and you'll see several of them, nevermind the others.
As for the higher shooting %'s back then being solely the result of the defense, allow me to ask you if you believe that today's players are more skilled and complete offensive players than 15 years ago or so. I don't believe they are simply because so many of them leave college early or never attend, and don't learn these fundamentals of offensive play that I mention. Sure, they may be more athletic-- but I can score on much more athletic guys than myself, and I know that they can't necessarily score on me every time, because they don't know how to play the game and take what's there.
Anyway, this is all speculation, as nobody will ever watch the damn tapes.
But I believe that when you factor in Jordan's physical advantages along with his skill advantages (and they are many, don't kid yourself), plus his aggressive mindset (Kobe only gets in that mode sometimes-- Jordan was always attacking, always prodding and making the defense react), you'll have a guy who could average 35 on at least 49% shooting at the very least.And for all the talk about today's "defenses", which always focus on how "athletic" the players are, you also fail to realize that today's players are nowhere NEAR as fundamentally sound defensively as those of years past, for the same reason they aren't as sound offensively: lack of preparation/practice. And so I feel that in that grand scheme of things, these things would somewhat equal out. Also realize that when you have to defend a COMPLETE offensive player, it is much more difficult than to guard most of the players today, who all have one glaring weakness or another. Hamilton? Can't go left. McGrady? No footwork, so you body him up. Iverson? Inconsistent J, back off him. Add all these things add up, along with the scouting and preparation that goes into each game, and you have defenses that are keyed into your capabilities. I can count the number of supposedly "elite" offensive players who have a legitimate pull-up jumper on ONE HAND. As in face-up, one or two dribbles, and pull up for the shot with the defender there. Kobe's getting there, but he tends to get his jumpers either in the post-up, off a dribble move (in one place), or off of screens. Very rarely will you see Kobe (or anyone else-- I'm not singling Kobe out) take one dribble and just raise up for a J. He'll set you up with the dribble, sure, like he did last night with that 3 against Hamilton, dancing around with the dribble and getting himself in rhythm; but he doesn't have a deadly pull-up yet.
Point being that there are very few players with a complete enough offensive game to make incomplete defensive players pay the price for their deficiencies (and today's defenders are indeed deficient, no matter their "athleticism"). I've been scoring on guys who were supposedly "more athletic" than me for my entire life, and that's because I have a relatively complete offensive game and solid footwork (I'm also devilishly fast, but whatever
). "More athletic" is actually somewhat of a misnomer-- all people usually mean when they say that is that they can jump really high and have long arms and are somewhat quick/coordinated; they were never faster than I was, either in a straight line or in terms of quickness/changing directions-- so who's actually more "athletic"? Well, that depends how you measure it. Anyway, I could talk about this stuff all day, but I have things to do.
Bat said:
IAWTP
Bat +1
Loki - 1000000
Loki, please explain how everyone used to shoot a much higher defense back in the day when Jordan was doing the same? Oh that is right, THEY ARE SO MUCH FUCKING FASTER THEN PLAYERS TODAY!!! I would love to watch some of these tapes with you because you clearly have lost a grip with reality or you are just fucking with up Sactown style.
That is what I suspected all along.Loki said:
Cubsfan23 said:
Where are you getting these stats from? All I know is he shot 37% the first game and 52% yesterday (when he finally decided to quit jacking up jumpshots) with Prince as the primary defender. That's above 44% for both games and 29 ppg. For the number of shots he's taking, that's pretty damn good...
Poor piston fans and laker haters.. I know this series is coming back to LA it is just hard to say who will be up... the lakers cant handle the Pistons's D and the Pistons cant handle their own inexperience... we will see.. also, that shot that Kobe made was Necessary if he expects to wn a NBA Finals MVP maybe another big game will get him a trophy, if not shaq will play his game and win his fourth.... I know Kobe wants it bad...
Cubsfan23 said:
And obviously Kobe didn't either. Again, how are you getting these stats? Were you actually watching each play to see when Tay or someone else was on Kobe or are you pulling this out of your ass? lol
Anyways, Prince is no Kobe stopper if Kobe is taking it to the rack. Bowen and others are better at defending off the dribble. Tayshaun is not quick (or dirty) enough...
Come on, how about let's not pretend the 80's Pistons were a team of scrubs. Dumars and the rest of them were one of the best defenses ever and MJ rose to the occasion over and over against them. His skills are simply not found in any player today. The speed, decision making, defense, intensity, scoring, shooting percentage, etc. He got it done every way possible. Overall the most valuable player in nba history if you're looking to add something to your team. He could do anything you needed him to on the court. If you want to sum up greatness in a shot like Kobe's be my guest but in no way does he even dent MJ's armor overall. He had an ok night yesterday only. He had that shot that will be remembered. Then there's some easy run in a circle and bank it layups. He wasnt by any means amazing last night outside of the last possesion. To say what Wilbon said, that MJ never matched that performance, is ridiculous. 63 on Celtics in the playoffs? 35 in a half against Blazers? And these are only the famed ones. Doesnt even touch on the amazing games he's had that are overshadowed by his own personal bests but still show up Kobe's night last night.
Oh, and Loki's tapes are very real if you guys would take the time to check before laughing at him. I think some people need to go purchase the Ultimate Michael Jordan dvd
Oh, and Loki's tapes are very real if you guys would take the time to check before laughing at him. I think some people need to go purchase the Ultimate Michael Jordan dvd
Typo. Prove you wrong? Well, by your own logic since Prince doesn't guard Kobe all game, the 37% from game one cannot be attributed to him alone. Not that Rip ever guarded Kobe unless it was a switch off a screen. If you wanna credit Tayshaun alone for the 37% from game 1, you gotta give him the blame for the 52% in game 2
And besides the 3, it was Tayshaun getting blown by and torched yesterday not Rip.This is pointless anyways as the help defense has as much to do with an opposing player's fg% as the primary defender (who usually gets rested when the other guy is taking a break as well unless he's in foul trouble). You think a Wallace block doesn't make Prince look good? After game one, Prince was a Kobe-stopper. Now he's only efective one-on-one so if Kobe gets by him and dunks on Sheed (which he did), it's not his fault? LMAO!!!
Prince is the designated "Kobe-stopper" this series and Kobe is averaging 29 points (on 44% shooting) and 5.5 assists. As long as Kobe keeps driving to the hole, this trend will continue
- Status