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[Chaplain]

But, making that assertion does mean one is pretty closed off from other forms of thinking, by default.

I am always open for honest discussion. But the reality is that discussions, with anyone for that matter, are usually driven by ulterior motive. Most people do not ask a person what they want to know. They use other statements to drive a person to the point of view they wanted them to come to from the beginning.

I have been debating on forums for over 8+ years about Jesus and His Word. The majority of the people (not all) that get into these discussions want to steer people away from their faith. There are very few that just want to understand what we believe.

God has used these experiences to make my faith stronger because they (the conversations) are not grounded in truth. People walk away from their faith and want to make others miserable because they are now miserable. Like it has been said long ago, "Misery loves Company".

 

[jaxword]

Really? There have been many debates.

Also on Gaf, we are hardly either equal size, or picking on the poor ickle atheists.

Of course you are not equal size. Islam and Christianity dominate the world. You know as well as I do that you don't respond to every little religious jab or joke, so those people can be ignored as needed, so there really aren't a lot of "real" atheists at all.

I'm talking about REAL hardcore debates. Like, have you personally taken on the Christian fundamentalists on this forum? If so, I'd genuinely like a link to read.

 

[JGS]

One thing you will notice about religious arguing: People who are hardcore into Christianity or Islam have their arguments primed and ready to take on the atheists/nonbelievers.

Yep, I know I have my John is fan fiction counter-argument outline right next to the computer at all times. I'm going to listen to a sermon about why God can create a rick he can't lift too.

A more logical assumption would be the debate topics atheists bring up are so weak they are pretty easy to tackle.

However...these same people, they know who they are, very rarely open fire on each other. I've yet to see the most fundamentalist Christians on this forum openly argue with the Fundamentalist Muslims with the same fire and vigor. Maybe it IS happening in PMs or something, but rarely in these religious threads.

You haven't visited the Christianity thread nor have you vistied places that are solely the domain of religious folk. Unlike the lamebrain idea that all religion is bad, we realize this for the stupid statements that they are so it appears to be a unified front- but that only because the common denominator is so very stupid.

 

[JGS]

So is the Koran all true? Or is it a giant conspiracy?

This has nothing to do with the debate I was having, but since you stuck your nose in it let's change the subject to what you're asking. I don't believe the Koran is true or else I would be a Muslim.

I don't understand how there could have been a "whole" before the bible was constructed.

Clearly you don't understand, but the beliefs came before the book's completion. God's purpose & dealings witth mankind existed well before Biblical writings over several centuries.

If you read the newspaper, it's a good chance that it is reporting on something that's already happened too.

 

[Zaptruder]

I am always open for honest discussion. But the reality is that discussions, with anyone for that matter, are usually driven by ulterior motive. Most people do not ask a person what they want to know. They use other statements to drive a person to the point of view they wanted them to come to from the beginning.

I have been debating on forums for over 8+ years about Jesus and His Word. The majority of the people (not all) that get into these discussions want to steer people away from their faith. There are very few that just want to understand what we believe.

God has used these experiences to make my faith stronger because they (the conversations) are not grounded in truth. People walk away from their faith and want to make others miserable because they are now miserable. Like it has been said long ago, "Misery loves Company".

Yes. This is about right for someone with the kind of faith that believes god is the only redeeming light in an otherwise wretched world.

 

[Chaplain]

Yes. This is about right for someone with the kind of faith that believes god is the only redeeming light in an otherwise wretched world.

Jesus said it, "that he is the true Light", so I believe Him. Jesus said:

"I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life. Put your trust in the light while there is still time; then you will become children of the light. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."

Jesus said this is the reason people don't believe in Him (the true light):

"God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

 

[Kinitari]

Jesus said it, "that he is the true Light", so I believe Him. Jesus said:

"I am the light of the world. If you follow me, you won’t have to walk in darkness, because you will have the light that leads to life. Put your trust in the light while there is still time; then you will become children of the light. I have come as a light to shine in this dark world, so that all who put their trust in me will no longer remain in the dark."

Jesus said this is the reason people don't believe in Him (the true light):

"God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

If these are your arguments, how can you say you debate? These aren't debate arguments. I think the problem is, people go into conversations with you thinking they are debates, but in reality, they are simply discussions. Which is fine - but when you say "people go in with ulterior motives" - that's what a debate is. You go in with your position, and you try to show it's validity.

 

[Chaplain]

If these are your arguments, how can you say you debate? These aren't debate arguments. I think the problem is, people go into conversations with you thinking they are debates, but in reality, they are simply discussions. Which is fine - but when you say "people go in with ulterior motives" - that's what a debate is. You go in with your position, and you try to show it's validity.

In the last post, I was responding to Zaptruder's statement about Jesus being the only redeeming light and why I believe that to be so.

My statement about people having ulterior motives still stands. The majority of the people who bash on Jesus or God's Word do so because they do not want what the Bible says to be true. It eases their mind to prove to others that it is not true because deep down they know it is true. There are other reasons but this is the underlying cause of arguing with people about something they 'claim' doesn't exist.

This is my point of view and for me there is nothing to argue about. Just because I believe something is not true, does not mean it isn't true. Regardless of how much I yell and screen that it isn't.

 

[Dude Abides]

In the last post, I was responding to Zaptruder's statement about Jesus being the only redeeming light and why I believe that to be so.

My statement about people having ulterior motives still stands. The majority of the people who bash on Jesus or God's Word do so because they do not want what the Bible says to be true. It eases their mind to prove to others that it is not true because deep down they know it is true. There are other reasons but this is the underlying cause of arguing with people about something they 'claim' doesn't exist.

This is my point of view and for me there is nothing to argue about. Just because I believe something is not true, does not mean it isn't true. Regardless of how much I yell and screen that it isn't.

I'm pretty sure that the Bible teaches that the clairvoyance you would have to be engaging in to know the bolded is witchcraft, punishable by death. Repent!

 

[Ashes]

What is marriage for?
I mean I know what marriage is, as does everyone else but I'd like to know the views of people who aren't religious.

 

[JGS]

What is marriage for?
I mean I know what marriage is, as does everyone else but I'd like to know the views of people who aren't religious.

Since no one non-religious answered, I'll try giving a non-religious answer.

It would seem to me that marriage from a secular view is one of three things (Or all of them):

1. Economic benefit
2. Romance
3. A fairly sturdy platform for raising a family.

So it's pretty similar to the religious view although the religious view emphasizes number 3 as it should.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

Thought this may be of interest.

New Craig vs Harris Debate

Goes for 2 hours, watching now.

 

[Atramental]

I guess I'll watch the debate because "The Contest" has started and I have nothing else to do on a late summer's night.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

It was debated in the other thread by GTP_Daverytimes and Game Analyst, but we never really got to see the full arguments from either side.

GTP_Daverytimes says Jesus is the 'son' of God but not God himself (doesn't believe in the trinity).

Game Analyst on the other hand says that Jesus and God (and Holy Spirit) are part of the one true God.

Would actually like to see a discussion on this and why you take your position (Biblical quotes are obviously relevant).

 

[Chaplain]

Would actually like to see a discussion on this and why you take your position (Biblical quotes are obviously relevant).

The Bible does say that Jesus is the Son of God. No way a person can deny this unless they ignore countless scriptures.

At the same time, the Bible also says that in the Jesus is the one true God.

Here is a Biblical chart showing scripture for both views:

Now, I think it is important to go back to the Old Testament.

"For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His government and its peace
will never end." Isaiah 9:6

This prophecy of Jesus shows that Jesus would be almighty God (God the Father) in human skin.

Below God is talking about Jesus:

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else."

God calls Jesus God. I do not believe any more needs to be said.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

The Bible does say that Jesus is the Son of God. No way a person can deny this unless they ignore countless scriptures.

At the same time, the Bible also says that in the Jesus is the one true God.

Here is a Biblical chart showing scripture for both views:

Now, I think it is important to go back to the Old Testament.

"For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us.
The government will rest on his shoulders.
And he will be called:
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
His government and its peace
will never end." Isaiah 9:6

This prophecy of Jesus shows that Jesus would be almighty God (God the Father) in human skin.

Below God is talking about Jesus:

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else."

God calls Jesus God. I do not believe any more needs to be said.

You have to realize that those verses that were lumping Jesus as God and Holy spirit were speaking symbolically. Again you don't walk straight into a doctors office without meeting the receptionist or nurse. Jesus is the closest one to God, he is his first creation so he is created in his image. Jesus is the mediator between us and Jehovah.

 

[Chaplain]

You have to realize that those verses that were lumping Jesus as God and Holy spirit were speaking symbolically.

This is not Biblically true.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Jesus said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

"While we look forward with hope to that wonderful day when the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, will be revealed."

Jesus is the closest one to God, he is his first creation

Jesus wasn't created. This is Mormon and Jehovah witness doctrine based off the twisting one verse.

Are you a Jehovah witness?

 

[JGS]

Jesus wasn't created. This is Mormon and Jehovah witness doctrine based off the twisting one verse.

Are you a Jehovah witness?

You don't need to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses to not believe the Trinity.

I've never believed the Trinity from the first time I read the Bible. Nothing Scripturally ever really jibed with it. I'm not really wanting to debate it since it tends to get unpleasant, but I will. Just saying that not believing in a trinity is not entirely unusual.

 

[Chaplain]

You don't need to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses to not believe the Trinity.

The Bible says that a person can only believe Jesus is God by the Holy Spirit. To say the Bible says Jesus is not God in the flesh says that either the person has never read the scriptures, they are not saved or they have been indoctrinated with lies (2 Peter 3).

I've never believed the Trinity from the first time I read the Bible. Nothing Scripturally ever really jibed with it. I'm not really wanting to debate it since it tends to get unpleasant, but I will. Just saying that not believing in a trinity is not entirely unusual.

The Bible says the following about the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God:

All three are called God.
All three are called Creator.
All three resurrect the dead.
All three indwell the believer.
All three are everywhere.
All three sanctify the believer.
All three gave and give life.
All three are eternal.
All three love.
All three search the hearts of mankind.

God's Word is the final authority on truth. Nothing else can be added or said.

 

[BocoDragon]

Today I was having a healthy religion debate with my friend at subway. He was giving me pascal's wager, and I was basically stating "not necessarily". Some hot chicks in earshot got angry, said I should "watch out with that", and stormed off, making snide comments about me.

I hardly said anything, and I was the opposite of pushy. This wasn't religious people getting pissed off at a "strident atheist"... this was religious people angry at the existence of atheists (and I'm not even a card carrying atheist, but rather an agnostic questioner).

My jaw drops that this is a reasonable response in 2011. You can call me spiritually bankrupt or stupid if you want... but to get offended at the very existence of my god-questioning queries?

I hate this topic of religion and the way that everyone takes it so damned seriously. This is an "I want off this planet" moment. At least my friend, the theist, was a respectful debater.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Today I was having a healthy religion debate with my friend at subway. He was giving me pascal's wager, and I was basically stating "not necessarily". Some hot chicks in earshot got angry, said I should "watch out with that", and stormed off, making snide comments about me.

I hardly said anything, and I was the opposite of pushy. This wasn't religious people getting pissed off at a "strident atheist"... this was religious people angry at the existence of atheists (and I'm not even a card carrying atheist, but rather an agnostic questioner).

My jaw drops that this is a reasonable response in 2011. You can call me spiritually bankrupt or stupid if you want... but to get offended at the very existence of my god-questioning queries?

I hate this topic of religion and the way that everyone takes it so damned seriously. This is an "I want off this planet" moment. At least my friend, the theist, was a respectful debater.

Should've pretended to be a Jew or something.

Someone found out I was Muslim today, and with a straight face asked me if I was 'going to go crazy and blow us all up'. I wasn't even upset by it, he seemed to think it was a genuinely appropriate question to ask me.

 

[Atramental]

words.

Yeah, that's why I refer to myself as a Free-Thinker instead of an atheist whenever anyone asks about my beliefs or lack of belief in supernatural things. People have so many misconceptions about atheists and atheism it's scary.

 

[TL4E]

Today I was having a healthy religion debate with my friend at subway. He was giving me pascal's wager, and I was basically stating "not necessarily". Some hot chicks in earshot got angry, said I should "watch out with that", and stormed off, making snide comments about me.

I hardly said anything, and I was the opposite of pushy. This wasn't religious people getting pissed off at a "strident atheist"... this was religious people angry at the existence of atheists (and I'm not even a card carrying atheist, but rather an agnostic questioner).

My jaw drops that this is a reasonable response in 2011. You can call me spiritually bankrupt or stupid if you want... but to get offended at the very existence of my god-questioning queries?

I hate this topic of religion and the way that everyone takes it so damned seriously. This is an "I want off this planet" moment. At least my friend, the theist, was a respectful debater.

What, did you expect hot AND rational? There are trade offs in this world I'm afraid.

Seriously though, I interpret this as fear among the theist types. They're terrified that people outside their fantasy land have vastly different opinions about the nature of reality. It's a threat to their identity. An agnostic atheist, on the other hand, isn't offended or threatened by conflicting opinions because he/she admits they simply can't know what the truth is.

 

[OttomanScribe]

Yeah, that's why I refer to myself as a Free-Thinker instead of an atheist whenever anyone asks about my beliefs or lack of belief in supernatural things. People have so many misconceptions about atheists and atheism it's scary.

Or a secular humanist, or a skeptic, or a bright... man, people will keep re-labelling themselves. If someone has a problem with what you believe, changing what you call yourself is only going to be a temporary fix.

 

[TL4E]

Or a secular humanist, or a skeptic, or a bright... man, people will keep re-labelling themselves. If someone has a problem with what you believe, changing what you call yourself is only going to be a temporary fix.

No, the problem here is that people have completely incorrect assumptions about what atheist means. Some think it literally means you worship satan. It isn't that they have a problem with what an atheist believes in as much as complete ignorance of what an atheist is.

Changing your "label" to rationalist or secular humanist might help with keeping true to who you are around others who have difficulty comprehending what atheism means.

 

[Air]

What, did you expect hot AND rational? There are trade offs in this world I'm afraid.

Seriously though, I interpret this as fear among the theist types. They're terrified that people outside their fantasy land have vastly different opinions about the nature of reality. It's a threat to their identity. An agnostic atheist, on the other hand, isn't offended or threatened by conflicting opinions because he/she admits they simply can't know what the truth is.

While it may be a form of fear coming from those girls, it isn't wise to paint "all theist" types with that brush. Even Boco claims his religious friend was respectful, which you seemed to have bypassed. As far as agnostic atheists not being offended by conflicting opinions, that too is a really general thing to say that may not happen in all cases. In truth maybe there ARE more theists who get bent out of shape over a conflicting opinion in comparison to agnostic atheists. But in my experience there ARE a lot of touchy atheists who are so far away from being objective that even when they lose an argument, they AREN'T willing to admit they don't know what the truth is and they go off about fairy tales, pixies etc.

Again there are theists as well who do the same. There are also theists and atheists who are incredibly respectful and humble.

Also anything that threatens someones identity will risk having said person lash out or protect their point of view in a rather unhealthy way. You tell an apple, Nintendo or Sony fan their product sucks, and than you're in for some system/OS wars. In my opinion its simply a lack of a person being introspective enough to realize that they aren't the only one with an opinion. I find that anybody who realizes they can be wrong will be a lot more respectful and humble.

I'm an agnostic theist btw (I don't know if there is a God or not, But I strongly believe that there is, which is generally what a lot of level headed people labeled as Theist would say)

 

[OttomanScribe]

No, the problem here is that people have completely incorrect assumptions about what atheist means. Some think it literally means you worship satan. It isn't that they have a problem with what an atheist believes in as much as complete ignorance of what an atheist is.

Changing your "label" to rationalist or secular humanist might help with keeping true to who you are around others who have difficulty comprehending what atheism means.

Alternatively asking them to explain what they mean by atheist could work too?

Either way you will end up doing some explaining right? I mean it is hardly a new concept.

On an advice level, I'd suggest explaining to them ideas like those expressed in 'the History of Doubt', where Christianity is really on some levels a new thing, as it emerged from a world that was founded upon doubt, and asserted faith as a reasonable way of doing things. Talk about doubt, and what it means to doubt God. They will get that surely?

 

[JGS]

The Bible says that a person can only believe Jesus is God by the Holy Spirit. To say the Bible says Jesus is not God in the flesh says that either the person has never read the scriptures, they are not saved or they have been indoctrinated with lies (2 Peter 3).



The Bible says the following about the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God:

All three are called God.
All three are called Creator.
All three resurrect the dead.
All three indwell the believer.
All three are everywhere.
All three sanctify the believer.
All three gave and give life.
All three are eternal.
All three love.
All three search the hearts of mankind.

God's Word is the final authority on truth. Nothing else can be added or said.

I agree totally with the bold which is why I don't believe in the trinity. Once I actually read the Bible I wasn't feeling 2 things:

1. Eternal Torment which is flat out wicked no matter how it's sliced in my book.
2. Trinity

So I left.

To the trinity, there's just not enough info about it to justify it as a major doctrinal teaching- especially in relation to what contradicts it.

For example, although God & Jesus are called gods (As is a lot of things), only one of them is called Almighty. Although both are called creators, only God is called the Grand Creator. Although we are made in their image, there is no such thing as a human duality or trinity. On top of that, to think that Jesus would know that he was God but pretend he wasn't seems dishonest. To think that he wouldn't know would make him weak to his purpose. It's simply not logical to me. Too many plotholes.

I'm just going off what it appears like to me & I mean no disrespect and try to avoid it until there is an absiolute statement on it. At that time, I feel it's important to state that the trinity does not appear to be a Christian teaching going off the overwhelming amount of verses that contradict it. I do realize that most reliegions teach it though.

 

[Chaplain]

For example, although God & Jesus are called gods (As is a lot of things), only one of them is called Almighty.

Jesus said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Although both are called creators, only God is called the Grand Creator

God talking to Jesus:

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever." Psalm 102:25-27 & Hebrews 1:10-12

Although we are made in their image, there is no such thing as a human duality or trinity.

"Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again." 1 Thessalonians 5:23

On top of that, to think that Jesus would know that he was God but pretend he wasn't seems dishonest.

He wasn't being dishonest. Paul said:

"Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being." Philippians 2:6-7

To think that he wouldn't know would make him weak to his purpose. It's simply not logical to me.

The Gospel of Luke says Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature while growing up just like the rest of us. Why? Because he was 100% Man but at the same time 100% God.

I'm just going off what it appears like to me & I mean no disrespect and try to avoid it until there is an absiolute statement on it. At that time, I feel it's important to state that the trinity does not appear to be a Christian teaching going off the overwhelming amount of verses that contradict it. I do realize that most reliegions teach it though.

It only seems to contradict because people tend to focus on one part of scripture and ignore the rest. Here is an example:

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Hebrews 9:14

There are countless scriptures that show God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all mentioned in the same verse. Does the Bible says there is one God? Yes! Does the Bible say the Holy Spirit is God? Yes! Does the Bible says God was in Jesus while on Earth? Yes. Does the Bible says Jesus created everything? Yes!

Are we suppose to understand how any of this is possible? Not while on Earth. All God wants is for us to believe what He says. He never says we will understand everything. This is what Faith is all about.

But to say the Bible does not teach that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all God, yet all are one, would be ignorant on our parts as believers.

 

[Chaplain]

Jesus felt this sermon so significant that He repeated it almost verbatim. Here is the greatest sermon ever preached in the history of humanity.

The Beatitudes

Then Jesus turned to his disciples and said,
“God blesses you who are poor,
for the Kingdom of God is yours.
God blesses you who are hungry now,
for you will be satisfied.
God blesses you who weep now,
for in due time you will laugh.

What blessings await you when people hate you and exclude you and mock you and curse you as evil because you follow the Son of Man. When that happens, be happy! Yes, leap for joy! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, their ancestors treated the ancient prophets that same way.

Sorrows Foretold

“What sorrow awaits you who are rich,
for you have your only happiness now.
What sorrow awaits you who are fat and prosperous now,
for a time of awful hunger awaits you.
What sorrow awaits you who laugh now,
for your laughing will turn to mourning and sorrow.
What sorrow awaits you who are praised by the crowds,
for their ancestors also praised false prophets."

Love for Enemies

“But to you who are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies! Do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer the other cheek also. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give to anyone who asks; and when things are taken away from you, don’t try to get them back. Do to others as you would like them to do to you.

“If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, why should you get credit? Even sinners do that much! And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, why should you get credit? Even sinners will lend to other sinners for a full return.

“Love your enemies! Do good to them. Lend to them without expecting to be repaid. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to those who are unthankful and wicked. You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate.

Do Not Judge Others

“Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven. Give, and you will receive. Your gift will return to you in full—pressed down, shaken together to make room for more, running over, and poured into your lap. The amount you give will determine the amount you get back.”

Then Jesus gave the following illustration: “Can one blind person lead another? Won’t they both fall into a ditch? Students are not greater than their teacher. But the student who is fully trained will become like the teacher.

“And why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, ‘Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,’ when you can’t see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.

The Tree and Its Fruit

“A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. A tree is identified by its fruit. Figs are never gathered from thornbushes, and grapes are not picked from bramble bushes. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart."

Building on a Solid Foundation

“So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.”

 

[JGS]

Jesus said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Neither Revelation 1 or 22 refer to Lord as Jesus. Also, several translation mention God specifically making the context clear, something that King James is not necessarily the best at.

God talking to Jesus:

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and made the heavens with your hands.
They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever." Psalm 102:25-27 & Hebrews 1:10-12

I'll be honest, I don't see how eother of these are connected with the trinity especially Hebrews which makes it pretty clear there is a line of authority that discounts the trinity teaching rather than strengthen it. Psalm 102 is a prayer to God not a discussion between God and Jesus.

"Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again." 1 Thessalonians 5:23

This tells us that we should also be a part of the trinity doesn't it- going off what you bolded.

He wasn't being dishonest. Paul said:

"Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being." Philippians 2:6-7

This is a good one. Let's take the entire chapter in context. I'm using the frst thing that pops up here http://www.biblegateway.com , but I actually don't have much problem with .

Philippians 2
Imitating Christ’s Humility
1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Do Everything Without Grumbling
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[c] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

Timothy and Epaphroditus
19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you. 20 I have no one else like him, who will show genuine concern for your welfare. 21 For everyone looks out for their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. 23 I hope, therefore, to send him as soon as I see how things go with me. 24 And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon.
25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow. 28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him, so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29 So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30 because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.

The rest of the verse is inconsequential, but I don't like breaking verses up in a chapter.

To me, it's pretty clear that Paul is stating that Jesus was of same form and function as God, just like angels and Satan for that matter. Unlike Satan, who does attempt to usurp God's rule, Jesus never thought to do that. On top of that, he became even lesser by becoming a man. That's humility at work, not a proof of equality.

The Gospel of Luke says Jesus grew in wisdom and in stature while growing up just like the rest of us. Why? Because he was 100% Man but at the same time 100% God.

That is not the reason. The reason he grew in wisdom and stature was because:
a. He was a perfect man. Even imperfect men, like Paul & Solomon, can do this so it did not take some god-like ability.
b. He loved his father and dedicated his life (even prior to baptism) to knowing him and his ways. After baptism, however, he gained full knowledge of his life prior to being a human.

It only seems to contradict because people tend to focus on one part of scripture and ignore the rest. Here is an example:

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" - Hebrews 9:14

There are countless scriptures that show God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all mentioned in the same verse. Does the Bible says there is one God? Yes! Does the Bible say the Holy Spirit is God? Yes! Does the Bible says God was in Jesus while on Earth? Yes. Does the Bible says Jesus created everything? Yes!

It does not matter if they are mentioned in the same verse. Of coure they would. Both are integral parts of out salvation as is the Holy Spirit. This does not equate to them being equal/coexistent/the same.

Are we suppose to understand how any of this is possible? Not while on Earth. All God wants is for us to believe what He says. He never says we will understand everything. This is what Faith is all about.

This is incorrect imo. I believe what he says and at the same time don't find the trinity to be an original Christian Doctrine. You basically just said that Scripture clearly teaches us this and yet also is a mystery. This is way too important to be a mystery.

It literally is telling us that we need to have the blind faith that atheists incorrectly state all faith is and that's not good enough for me. Pretty much every verse in the NT that attempts to prove the trinity can be disproven 10 times over by things both Jesus and the Bible writers state. The trinity weakens doctrine rather than strengthens it. It makes wiorthess the sacrifice made rather than appreciation for it. It also makes the sacrifice overkill.

Even it it was correct, it's a pretty sloppy way to teach Truth- something that is not reflected otherwise in the Scriptures.

 

[Chaplain]

I'll be honest, I don't see how eother of these are connected with the trinity especially Hebrews which makes it pretty clear there is a line of authority that discounts the trinity teaching rather than strengthen it. Psalm 102 is a prayer to God not a discussion between God and Jesus.

1. In Hebrews it says God is talking about Jesus:

"But to the Son he says."

2. In Hebrews, God calls Jesus God:

"Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever."

3. In Hebrews, God calls Jesus the Creator:

He also says to the Son, “In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth and made the heavens with your hands."

You basically just said that Scripture clearly teaches us this and yet also is a mystery. This is way too important to be a mystery.

Paul said God becoming a man is a mystery:

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory." - 1 Timothy 3:16

I will leave you with this study. God Bless

JESUS IS GOD
A Topical Study of
John 1:1

When John wrote his Gospel, heresy was already present within the church. Maintaining that the body is evil and only the spirit is good, Gnostics insisted that if Jesus was God, He couldn’t have had a body. According to the Gnostics, when Jesus walked, He left no footprints; when He ate, He didn’t really swallow His food. He appeared as a Person, but He actually had no physical body.

What does John say to this? “We have heard Him with our ears; we have seen Him with our eyes; we have touched Him with our hands.”

“Jesus had a body,” said John. “He is God. He became Man” (see 1 John 1:1).

“If Jesus did indeed have a body,” argued the Gnostics, “He is not God but rather an emanation from God, an extension of God.”

“Wait a minute,” countered John in the first verse of his Gospel. “There are three proofs that Jesus Himself is God.…”

Jesus is eternally God.
In the beginning was the Word…

Whenever the beginning was, wherever it was, whatever it might have been, Jesus—the Word—was already there. He had no beginning and He has no end. He is eternally God.

Jesus is equally God.
…and the Word was with God…

Jesus, the Word, was with God—equal to the Father and the Spirit.
“I thought there was only one God,” you say.

There is. “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord,” Deuteronomy 6:4 declares. But the word “one” is echad, which refers to a compound unity, like one people, or one cluster of grapes. Thus, God is a compound unity, a “tri-unity.” One plus one plus one does not equal one. But one times one times one equals one. And that is the mystery of the Trinity.

Jesus is essentially God.
…and the Word was God.

In His very essence, Jesus is God. The gnostics denied this, and their heresy is still alive and well today. Every cult stems from Gnosticism for every cult denies that Jesus Christ is God. The Mormons deny it. They say the Son of God is not equal with God. Rather, they maintain He is merely the offspring of God. The Jehovah’s Witnesses declare Jesus is a God. And the Way International has decided that, although Jesus is the Son of God, He is not equal to God.

What do you say to these present-day gnostics? Turn them to Revelation 21:6: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.” Ask a Mormon or a Jehovah’s Witness, “Who is the One who gives of the water of the fountain of life? Who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end?” He will say, “It’s God.”

Then, have him turn the page to Revelation 22:12–13: “And, behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” Ask him, “Who is going to return?” He will say Jesus. But he will now have a problem, because if he says Jesus is not God, he has two Alphas and two Omegas—two firsts and two lasts. Truly, the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is God. The doctrine of the deity of Jesus Christ is essential and nonnegotiable. Yet there are two verses attacked constantly by those seeking to undermine it.…

The Humanist and Genesis 1:1

The humanist—the unbeliever—refuses to believe God created the heavens and the earth. Why? Romans 1 says it’s because if he acknowledges that he is created by God, he will then be responsible and accountable to God. Therefore, because man wants to act and live independently from God, he rids himself of his Creator and says, “Because I came from the ooze, I can live in the slime and do whatever I want.”

In the 1940s, the seven leading problems in public schools were talking, chewing gum, making noise, running in the hallways, getting out of place in line, wearing improper clothing, and not putting paper in wastebaskets. Fifty years later, the seven leading problems became drug abuse, alcohol abuse, pregnancy, suicide, rape, assault/burglary, and arson/bombing. We’ve gone from talking and gum chewing to rape and school bombing. Something’s going on. But what do we expect when we teach our kids they came from animals? Told they’re animals, they act like animals. To counter this, we then spend millions of tax dollars on self-esteem courses to teach high-school kids that they’re important.

The problem, however, is that before they ever get to sixth period self-esteem psychology class, they have to go to fourth period biology and hear they came from slime. It just doesn’t make sense. We’ve got to get back to the foundational presupposition that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth—that He made us, has a plan for us, and wants to work in us. Without that, the entire fabric of culture begins to unravel in our homes, our schools, and our lives.

The Cultist and John 1:1

The second most commonly attacked Scripture is John 1:1. It also deals with the beginning, and is attacked not by the humanist, but by the cultist. The cultist says, “I’ve got a new truth to share. Jesus is not God. He’s the Son of God, the emanation of God; He’s a Prophet who speaks on behalf of God, but Jesus is not God.” And on this single premise, heresy is born and cults are founded.

You can recognize a cult by three characteristics.…

Exclusivity

“Of all of the people living presently and throughout history who have named the name of Christ, only our little group of fifty, or five hundred, or fifty thousand is right,” declares the cultist. Listen, gang—if it’s new, it’s not true. And if it’s true, it’s not new. This is an absolute fact.

Authority

“Submit to me,” says the cult leader. “I will tell you what to read, where to go, and who to marry.” Whenever someone tries to put this trip on you—run! Paul said, “We do not seek to have authority over you, but are helpers of your joy” (see 2 Corinthians 1:24). Cult leaders are out to dominate, whereas true ministers of the gospel desire only to serve.

Deity

Every single cult denies the deity of Christ. Why is this so important? Because if you begin to say Jesus is simply a created extension of God, you open the door to every other heresy. But even more important than opening the door to other aberrations, if you deny Jesus is God, you minimize the work God did on your behalf when He became a Man.

Suppose you accidentally get caught in a meat grinder, and I come to your rescue, put my arms around you, and allow my flesh to become hamburger in the process. You leave in shock, but unharmed. And then someone tells you Jon Courson destroyed his own arms to save you. Suppose, hearing this, you said, “No, he didn’t. That was someone who looks like Jon. That was an emanation from Jon. That was the son of Jon, Peter-John. But it wasn’t Jon.” If you didn’t acknowledge what I had done on your behalf, it would be an arrogant, ignorant insult.

Yet that is exactly what gnostics propound when they insist God Himself didn’t really become a Man. The message given to Abraham in Genesis 22 was that God will provide Himself a lamb—not for Himself a lamb, but that He Himself would be the Lamb. God became a Lamb. To diminish this is blasphemy. It is the one nonnegotiable heresy. In order for a person to be saved, he must confess that Jesus is Lord (Romans 10:9). What does it mean to confess Jesus is Lord? It does not mean that He is Lord of every area of your life, for who here or down the tunnel of history can truly say that Jesus Christ is Lord of every single area of his life? I suggest none. Consequently, none would be saved.

No, to confess Jesus as Lord means to realize that Jesus is God—that He is your Creator, Redeemer, and King; your Lover, your Friend, your everything. To confess Jesus as Lord means to recognize He is God in the flesh—eternally God, equally God, essentially God. If you deny that, you are a heretic. The Way International is heretical. Jehovah’s Witnesses are heretics. Mormons are heretics. What are we to do with heretics? According to Titus 3:10, after a first or second warning, we are to have nothing to do with them.

“For one who constantly preaches grace and love, that sounds kind of tough,” you protest. If a brother doesn’t understand a doctrine, has erred in sin, or is stumbling in his walk, embrace him. Stand with him. Hang in there beside him. But you must differentiate between a stumbling saint and a devouring wolf, because sheep don’t hang around wolves, hoping to convert them. When a wolf is around, sheep split.

A wolf in sheep’s clothing might look like a sheep, talk like a sheep, smell like a sheep, even walk like a sheep. How, then, can you tell if he is a sheep? You don’t have to be an expert in theology. You don’t have to know Greek perfectly. Just watch what he eats. If he eats sheep, he’s a wolf. Jehovah’s Witnesses, followers of the Way International, Mormons, and other cultists approach people who name the Name of Jesus and begin to cause confusion and doubt. They get people off the mark of simply loving the Lord and loving one another. We under-shepherds hate wolves because we see what they do to the flock as they shift people’s focus from the Shepherd to side issues and insignificant matters in order to devour believers for their own purposes and egos.

Keep centered, gang. How? By keeping focused on the Word and on Jesus Christ. Truly, Jesus is God. Love Him. Learn about Him. Talk to Him. Walk with Him. And you’ll do well.

Courson, J. (2003). Application Commentary (443). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Nolimit_SS]

I was talking to a friend who believes in ID and that stuff and came upon this
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427

I weep for mankind, and these people are serious

 

[thezerofire]

I was talking to a friend who believes in ID and that stuff and came upon this
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427

I weep for mankind, and these people are serious

wait really? how...? what...?

 

[Nolimit_SS]

Either they are biggest trolls in the world(who gets 13k posts for that..) or they are, let's not go into what they are

I remembered this is same place where some guy asked what to do about daughter not wanting to marry rapist

 

[DeathIsTheEnd]

Don't worry, that's a Poe site.

 

[Glasswork]

I was talking to a friend who believes in ID and that stuff and came upon this
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427

I weep for mankind, and these people are serious

Holy shit, the badges they have on below their avatar are hilarious.
"Ready for the Rapture"

 

[Maddness]

Holy shit, the badges they have on below their avatar are hilarious.
"Ready for the Rapture"

why does he have a round Earth in his signature banner?

 

[OttomanScribe]

I was talking to a friend who believes in ID and that stuff and came upon this
http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=45427

I weep for mankind, and these people are serious

They aren't, it is a parody site.

 

[Chaplain]

The Narrow Way - A Brief Look at the Synoptic Gospels

“Broad is the way that leads to destruction,” Jesus declared. “Narrow is the way that leads to life” (Matthew 7:13-14). In fact, so narrow is the way that it is only as wide as one Person—the Person of Jesus Christ. Because Jesus is the only One who has done the things He taught us to do, the Christian walk is not about trying to be Jesus. It’s about being impressed with Jesus. It’s about falling in love with Him, being amazed by Him, and drawing near to Him.

With this in mind, reconsider with me some of the passages we have seen in Luke’s Gospel…

The Roman Centurion

Directly following the account of Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount in Luke 6, we come to the story of the Roman centurion who sent word to Jesus that his servant was sick. When Jesus neared his house, the centurion again sent word, this time that he was not worthy that Jesus should come to his house, but that simply a word from Him would heal the servant (Luke 7:7).

Here, Jesus had just finished giving a sermon in which He had said in effect, “If you think you can get to heaven simply by not killing your brother or committing adultery, I have news for you. You can’t even be angry with your brother or look lustfully at another woman. You have to be more righteous than those among you who follow the most detailed letter of the law. In short, you must be perfect.”

On the heels of this sermon, Jesus hears from a centurion who doesn’t say, “I’m okay,” or, “I’ll try harder,” or, “I’ll do better,” but simply says, “I’m not worthy.”

Bingo. No wonder Jesus commended him (Luke 7:9).

There are two ways to heaven: either by keeping the law perfectly or by realizing we need a Savior desperately. And because it is impossible for us to do the former, our only hope is the latter. Therefore, the purpose of the law from before eternity began was to be a schoolmaster, a tutor to show us that it’s impossible to think we can enter the presence of God through the law, through our own works, or through our own energy (Galatians 3:24).

A lifeguard’s abilities are never seen until someone is drowning. So, too, we never see the magnitude of Jesus’ work on our behalf until, like the centurion, we realize we are sinking in our own sin and selfishness. To showcase the glory of His Son, God sent Him to a drowning world to rescue all of humanity, leaving mankind no other option but to say, “Thou art worthy, O Lord.” His greatness and beauty, His kindness and glory would never be known apart from our collective sinking into the sea of our own iniquity.

You see, it’s not as though God said, “Here’s Plan A: The law. That didn’t work? Okay, let’s go with Plan B: the Cross.” No, the law was given from the outset to bring people into an awareness of their sinking condition in order that the Son’s glory, greatness, and mercy could be seen very clearly by all of humanity.

The Good Samaritan

“What must I do to inherit eternal life?” the lawyer asked Jesus.
“How do you read the law?” Jesus asked in response.
“You shall love the Lord and love your neighbor,” the lawyer answered.
“This do and you shall live,” Jesus said.
“But just who is my neighbor,” the lawyer asked, looking for a loophole.

In answering with the parable of the Good Samaritan, Jesus essentially said, “Your neighbor is anyone at any time in any situation who is in need for any reason.”

Who of us is able to say, “I help every person I ever see in need”—be it the person whose car is broken down by the side of the road or the homeless man begging for money in front of the grocery store? Only Jesus has, does, or ever will do this.

The Prodigal Son

When the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, “This man receives sinners and eats with them,” Jesus gave three parables about lost things. The last parable concerned a lost son and his seemingly righteous older brother. In this parable, when the lost son returned, the older brother was trying to prove his worth by working in the field, even though all that the father had was already his (Luke 15:31).

We often think that the Lord is looking for some good men who will hold the course, steady their hand on the plow, and labor in the field of ministry.

But maybe He’s not. Maybe there are times He wants us to come to the party with those who were lost—yet we can’t because we’re busy trying to prove how spiritual we are. And, like the older brother, we miss out. Even as he was claiming he never disobeyed his father, the older brother was indeed in a place of disobedience because he was working instead of rejoicing.

The Rich Young Ruler

“Good master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” asked the rich, young ruler.

“Sell all you have, give the money to the poor, and follow Me,” Jesus answered (Luke 18:22-23). But of the rich young ruler, this was, evidently, too much to ask.

The story following that of the rich young ruler is that of Zacchaeus, whom Jesus declared to be saved after he simply said he would give away half of all he owned (Luke 19:8-9). Why did Zacchaeus get saved after giving only half of all he owned, when the rich, young ruler was told to give all he owned? Because Zacchaeus admitted he had cheated people. The rich young ruler claimed to be righteous. Zacchaeus, on the other hand, recognized his need for Jesus.

All of Jesus’ stories and parables are for the purpose of bringing people into an awareness that, without Him, we fail completely. We’re either prodigals in the pigpen living in sin, or we’re older brothers in the field trying to be righteous. Either way, we’re guilty. Either way, we’re lost.

Jesus took everything the law said and made it tougher. Everything He does in Matthew, Mark, and Luke—until the time of the Cross—says, “You are in a heap of trouble. You’re in hot water, and it’s going to get hotter.”

It’s shocking for those who think they are religious to realize that they’re not okay. It took three Gospels—Matthew, Mark, and Luke—to say this. Thus, these Synoptic Gospels are, to a certain degree, more closely related to the Old Testament than to the New Covenant.

I suggest this is the reason that, in the thirteen letters he penned, Paul quotes Jesus only once (1 Corinthians 11:23–25). One would think that Paul would quote Jesus constantly. After all, we do. But Paul didn’t. He talked about the work of Jesus continually, but not the words of Jesus directly because, I believe, the message of Jesus was intended for the Jew, for the religious person who thinks he’s righteous. But Paul was called to the Gentiles.

“Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might” (Deuteronomy 6:4-5). How often is this—the great Shema, the most foundational, fundamental tenet of Judaism quoted in the epistles? Not once. We preach sermons on it, but the apostle Paul never mentions it. Neither does James. Neither does Peter. Why? Because it is impossible. Who of us could say, “I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, and strength”? There is only One who always did the things which pleased His Father (John 8:29). It’s all about Jesus.

Jesus would take three years to explain to the people of Israel, to the Jew, to the religious mind-set, the hopelessness of their condition. This is the purpose of the synoptic Gospels. The law had to be established by no less than three witnesses (Deuteronomy 19:15), so Matthew, Mark, and Luke were the three witnesses the Holy Spirit chose to record not only the beauty of the Savior but the helplessness of the sinner.

Therefore, as you journey through the synoptic Gospels, so named because they present similar views of the life and teachings of Jesus, I encourage you to look at them not as a presentation of rules for us to live by, but as the portrait of a Redeemer who came to rescue.
The Gospel of John and the Book of Revelation were the last of the canon to be written. Eusebius tells us that the apostle John had the synoptic Gospels—Matthew, Mark, and Luke—before him and was able to draw from them as he defined, commented upon, and explained them in his Gospel.

John, therefore, wrote not only to the Jew, but also to the Roman centurion, to the prodigal son, to Zacchaeus. He wrote to any and all who believe in the One who made room for us on the narrow way that leads to life by stretching out His arms as wide as they would reach and allowing them to be nailed to a Cross (John 20:31).

Courson, J. (2003). Application Commentary (426). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Joel Was Right]

I'd like to ask people here what their experiences when it comes particular trends of attacking Christianity, other faiths, or religion in general have been like. An example would be like the priest sex scandals that led to many to demonise the Catholic faith and theology in general.

 

[Ashes]

I'd like to ask people here what their experiences when it comes particular trends of attacking Christianity, other faiths, or religion in general have been like. An example would be like the priest sex scandals that led to many to demonise the Catholic faith and theology in general.

I don't like that it breeds a two tier intellectual system, where one is implied to be inferior than the other based purely on the belief.

edit: This reactions in this thread are interesting...
Atheist doctors 'more likely to hasten death'

 

[JGS]

I'd like to ask people here what their experiences when it comes particular trends of attacking Christianity, other faiths, or religion in general have been like. An example would be like the priest sex scandals that led to many to demonise the Catholic faith and theology in general.

I find that they are much bigger on the internet than in reality.

Since most would not identify their religion and themselves individually as pro-sex scandal, for example, it tends to not affect them too much. Further, a normal person that doesn't belong to a religion would not identify another religion as pure negative anything. It's why we all tend to gewt along.

It is much more interesting to see schisms in a religion, such as with gay marriage and some religions, because then you do see some profound impacts both within the religion and outside of it. When it's not worked out, it can be pretty detrimental/ beneficial depending on your POV.

 

[phisheep]

I'd like to ask people here what their experiences when it comes particular trends of attacking Christianity, other faiths, or religion in general have been like. An example would be like the priest sex scandals that led to many to demonise the Catholic faith and theology in general.

I think JGS has it about right. On the up-close and personal level it really doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference - and when it does make a difference it is often a localised thing. For example, Catholics in nonconformist South Wales in the 60s and 70s were kind of ostracised, not that it made a whole lot of difference to the rest of the world. That seemed to me largely to be down to firebrand preaching around essentially trivial doctrinal differences.

Elsewhere, it gets very muddled up with culture and historical rivalries rather than being purely religious, like the whole Northern Ireland thing.

The only times I find something like the Catholic paedophilia stuff being brought up in real life is as the subject of bad-taste jokes rather than of argument or even personal dislike. And that's not a new thing and nor is it specifically Catholic - jokes about vicars and choirboys have been rampant for a century at least. Doesn't make it any the less in bad taste (though some of them are funny).

Generally people are pretty polite when it comes to this sort of thing. Which is all to the good.

 

[Joel Was Right]

For Christians who do not subscribe to it, how are Christians who do defined? Are they frowned upon? Is there doubt as to whether they've truly accepted Christ and thus whether they are really a Christian? And vice versa (i.e. I'd like to hear both GameAnalyst's and JGS' opinions). What's the relationship between these two very different grasps of the faith? Is it even fair to say they're 'very' different?

 

[phisheep]

For Christians who do not subscribe to it [the doctrine of the Holy Trinity], how are Christians who do defined? Are they frowned upon? Is there doubt as to whether they've truly accepted Christ and thus whether they are really a Christian? And vice versa (i.e. I'd like to hear both GameAnalyst's and JGS' opinions). What's the relationship between these two very different grasps of the faith? Is it even fair to say they're 'very' different?

I'm not at all sure that they are very different. It's a big old question to be sure, but any answer we give is a poor attempt to wrap our humble human minds around the nature of God.

It has always seemed to me rather perverse for a church or group to divisively proselytise one angle of an essentially minor doctrinal difference when there's such a vast swathe of essential common ground. That's more to do with the basic economics of churchgoing than it is about one's faith in daily life.

The doctrine of the Trinity makes about as much sense to me as does wave/particle duality and I don't see that it matters a smack whether I believe it or not. Same goes for anyone else, it isn't something I lose any sleep over.

 

[JGS]

For Christians who do not subscribe to it, how are Christians who do defined? Are they frowned upon? Is there doubt as to whether they've truly accepted Christ and thus whether they are really a Christian? And vice versa (i.e. I'd like to hear both GameAnalyst's and JGS' opinions). What's the relationship between these two very different grasps of the faith? Is it even fair to say they're 'very' different?

I don't think too much about it. I read the Bible and go with what makes sense to me in it's entirety and God & Jesus being separate makes more sense to me.

Usually the argument is brought to me which makes sense since I'm in the minority- so much so that most think only one or two religions is associated with it.

I think it's very important to to get the most accurate information on it and although I do personally think it can be risky equating anything to God, that's largely my issue. In short, I think it would be sinful for me to view God and Jesus as equals I avoid judging others opinions on it. Considering the number of verses indicating God being superior I don't ascribe to my belief as even remotely blasphemous or the rantings of a sect.

At the end of the day you have to believe that your beliefs are right or there's no point in believing. If a belief challenges you enough you should definitely change. Arguments that defend the trinity don't raise doubts for me.

The big picture view is that it is unquestionable that the NT wants everyone on the same page rather than divided into hundreds of denominations. I don't know what will happen if someone is teaching something completely contradictory to the intended teaching. I am primarily concerned with making sure I'm comfortable with my belief.

EDIT: I didn't want to bump the thread, but needless to say, it is incorrect (& pert near blasphemous itself) to ascribe words to the apostles that were never said. The trinity is not mentioned nor described in full so it's therefore absolutely impossible for me to be condemned as non-Christian for a lack of belief in it.

 

[Chaplain]

For Christians who do not subscribe to it, how are Christians who do defined?

The Apostles called these men heretics. They have denied the God who saved them by saying Jesus was not God in human flesh.

Are they frowned upon?

See above.

Is there doubt as to whether they've truly accepted Christ and thus whether they are really a Christian?

Paul says a person cannot say Jesus is God without the Holy Spirit living in them and through them (born again).

And vice versa (i.e. I'd like to hear both GameAnalyst's and JGS' opinions). What's the relationship between these two very different grasps of the faith? Is it even fair to say they're 'very' different?

One belief denies what Jesus and the Apostle's taught and the other doesn't. One should not call themselves a Christian if they do not believe Jesus is God in human flesh. The Mormon's do this but they fail to tell the public their definition of Jesus being God (one of many gods). Their definition is not the Biblical definition.

All cults attack the deity of Jesus. That is why they are called cults.

That is what the Bible teaches. Hope that helped.

 

[Shanadeus]

In an attempt to steer things away from the same old religions:

Anyone here that follow a relatively unique religion that isn't that big in either your country or globally?

 

[JGS]

In an attempt to steer things away from the same old religions:

Anyone here that follow a relatively unique religion that isn't that big in either your country or globally?

Technically, you could have a pretty good time of various Christian beliefs. Too much debate is based on Catholicism &/or Evangelical.

That's actually the same as most of the major religions- all of them have these interesting offshoots.