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The one thing you can't be in the Marvel Cinematic Universe -- Gay

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But you said yourself, it's a fictional film. You can't say that to dismiss my point and then ignore it for yours.

He isn't. He wants representation because he likes seeing characters with traits he has in a fictional setting. A fictional setting doesn't need to match real world demographics. Lord of the Rings has elves and orcs despite those things not existing anywhere in the real world. It would still be nice to see a black actor playing a major role in Lord of the Rings. Wanting your race or sex or whatever other trait to be in the work is not a call for the work to mimic real world demographics.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
So in most cases, they can't just reveal that so and so is gay, and would have to invent new gay characters, I guess?

Some characters it would raise more eyebrows than others, I guess. Depends on execution, and again, on the character. I mean it would feel super disingenuous of Batman was revealed to be gay, or Daredevil, or Tony Stark. They have switched some characters before though. Alan Scott had a gay son, and was rewritten as gay himself acouple years ago. Can't speak as to how well that was handled though.

That said though, there could certainly be a case of a character developing feelings for someone of the same gender that wasn't outright part of their history. Again, if it was well written.
 
He isn't. He wants representation because he likes seeing characters with traits he has in a fictional setting. A fictional setting doesn't need to match real world demographics. Lord of the Rings has elves and orcs despite those things not existing anywhere in the real world. It would still be nice to see a black actor playing a major role in Lord of the Rings. Wanting your race or sex or whatever other trait to be in the work is not a call for the work to mimic real world demographics.

Okay but having orcs and elves is what sets Lord of the Rings apart from most media. Having superheroes sets MCU apart from most media. Having extra gay people shouldn't be your thing that sets you apart unless you're making Milk or Brokeback Mountain.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Aren't we talking about the characters? I thought the character of black falcon was gay in that Cap America movie.

Firstly, no. If anything, the actor played it like he had a thing for Widow. And secondly, LOL at calling him Black Falcon. It's just Falcon.
 
Okay but having orcs and elves is what sets Lord of the Rings apart from most media. Having superheroes sets MCU apart from most media. Having extra gay people shouldn't be your thing that sets you apart unless you're making Milk or Brokeback Mountain.

He isn't saying he wants gay characters to set MCU apart. He wants to be represented in media more frequently.
 
You were saying a fictional world doesn't need to match real world demographics. By definition, not matching the real world is what sets fiction apart.

Perhaps you need to read the conversation I was responding to.

Fictional worlds don't match real world demographics.

It is still nice, psychologically speaking, to see people like you represented in those works.

Can you follow me thus far?
 

CorvoSol

Member
Off the top of my head.

Freedom Ring
Freed_Ring_HD.jpg


Hulkling and Wiccan

There was some subtext with She hulk and Jazinda

Yeah but who doesn't She Hulk have subtext with? She even had chem with Spidey
 
Perhaps you need to read the conversation I was responding to.

Fictional worlds don't match real world demographics.

It is still nice, psychologically speaking, to see people like you represented in those works.

Can you follow me thus far?

Please don't imply that just because someone reads a conversation differently from you that they didn't read it at all. That's disingenuous.

Fictional worlds don't match real world demographics. Yes. That's what makes them fictional. The further away from the real world they are, the more that's what the fiction is about.
 

ZdkDzk

Member
Please don't imply that just because someone reads a conversation differently from you that they didn't read it at all. That's disingenuous.

Fictional worlds don't match real world demographics. Yes. That's what makes them fictional. The further away from the real world they are, the more that's what the fiction is about.

That's a really weird way of looking at it. Fiction is used as a title, not a goal.

The reason most fictional worlds don't match real world demographics is generally because thery're written to reflect the world of the writter, which is obviously biased. But having them skewed in the direction of LGBT or a certain ethnic group/race doesn't make it any less biased.

If (not you specifically) you are arguing for more LGBT inclusion in media, that's fine, great, I'm totally on board. But if the argument becomes a call for a lot more LGBT inclusion in all/the majority of media, you have to accept the fact that at some point you're pandering as well. There's no real definition for a lot and I don't really consider pandering a bad thing, but that's what it is.
 
Please don't imply that just because someone reads a conversation differently from you that they didn't read it at all. That's disingenuous.

Fictional worlds don't match real world demographics. Yes. That's what makes them fictional. The further away from the real world they are, the more that's what the fiction is about.

At this point I have no fucking clue what you are trying to argue. So congrats on that. I can't tell if you are bothered or not by gays supposedly being over represented in media.
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
(Of course, having the only LGBT characters of the MCU being villains would carry its own set of potential problems...)

Only if they don't bring a gay hero to the equation. Having a gay villain for a movie with no gay hero wouldn't be a bad thing, provided they don't keep putting it off.

The only gay characters in Marvel that I know of are in the X-men properties which aren't in Marvel's film wheelhouse. Whoops?
 
so does having a gay superhero in your fiction make it more or less fictional?

I think you think I'm saying fictional is a bad thing, and it's not inherently nor normally so. The fiction is what it's about. So having real world demographics means it's about otherwise average people who are superheros. Having more gay people than RW demo means it's about an especially gay group of people who are superheros. This isn't rocket science.


At this point I have no fucking clue what you are trying to argue. So congrats on that. I can't tell if you are bothered or not by gays supposedly being over represented in media.

Over representing gays in media means you're pandering to gays, writing a story that's more about them than the average person. There's nothing wrong with being gay or writing stories about gay people. Just don't do it in the name of equality.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
Let me just check.... Do I see people in this thread pretending that THOR, CAP, IRON MAN & HULK's straightness hasn't really come up? cuz... those people all had love interests. It's a major character motivation in all of their solo films.

I don't understand how it's anymore pandering to make a film with a gay love story than a straight. I mean, you really think that shit with Natalie Portman or Liv Tyler or whoever is in the script for any other reason than stone-cold formula? Why not spread the pandering around? It's a dumb popcorn movie. Suddenly Marvel movies are above pandering????? That's fucking crazy, because last time I checked Stan Lee is a shitty actor who gets a cameo in every film just to make fans give a cheap thrill.
 
Over representing gays in media means you're pandering to gays, writing a story that's more about them than the average person. There's nothing wrong with being gay or writing stories about gay people. Just don't do it in the name of equality.

Where exactly are gay people over represented in the media again? Also, you seem unable to comprehend the idea that a writer could think that a gay character would be interesting to write because of the under representation. Also, as long as the character is interesting, why exactly do you care if the writer is "pandering to gay people"? I don't remember anyone asking everyone in the MCU to suddenly come out of the closet in some shoehorned attempt to appeal to another demographic.
 
Let me just check.... Do I see people in this thread pretending that THOR, CAP, IRON MAN & HULK's straightness hasn't really come up? cuz... those people all had love interests. It's a major character motivation in all of their solo films.

I don't understand how it's anymore pandering to make a film with a gay love story than a straight. I mean, you really think that shit with Natalie Portman or Liv Tyler or whoever is in the script for any other reason than stone-cold formula? Why not spread the pandering around? It's a dumb popcorn movie. Suddenly Marvel movies are above pandering????? That's fucking crazy, because last time I checked Stan Lee is a shitty actor who gets a cameo in every film just to make fans give a cheap thrill.

Jane Foster is cute >:O

Thorki is OTP though~
 

neorej

ERMYGERD!
I for one, would kill for a black widow/ wasp love scene.

Also, I thought Coulson was a little gay for captain America.
 

RM8

Member
This "over-representation" thing is so absurdly silly. Despite actual demographics, beautiful people are very strongly over-represented in media, but of course that's not a problem. Gay characters seem to be a problem, even when they're severely under-represented, lol. Just wanting a handful of non-straight characters somehow equals over-representation and we should totally not do it because of that.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Only if they don't bring a gay hero to the equation. Having a gay villain for a movie with no gay hero wouldn't be a bad thing, provided they don't keep putting it off.

The only gay characters in Marvel that I know of are in the X-men properties which aren't in Marvel's film wheelhouse. Whoops?

The "outrage" around Far Cry 4 pretty much destroyed the concept of a well-done gay villain in geek entertainment for some time. That GAF thread here was...something alright. (Best part, villain wasn't even gay, was just assumed to be gay off of the box art, which then sparked the whole controversy for months on end)
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Where exactly are gay people over represented in the media again? Also, you seem unable to comprehend the idea that a writer could think that a gay character would be interesting to write because of the under representation. Also, as long as the character is interesting, why exactly do you care if the writer is "pandering to gay people"? I don't remember anyone asking everyone in the MCU to suddenly come out of the closet in some shoehorned attempt to appeal to another demographic.

A modern equivalent of the Spider-man story would probably be much more relevant in modern times if Parker was gay (if you kept him white & nerdy) and kept in the closet. Spidey & X-Men (especially x-men) were insanely progressive at the time of their creation.

Part of my disillusionment with these arguments is that I'm a pretty big believer in the Animal Farm theory behind many equality movements.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
I'm amused by the 'this character can't be gay, he likes women' nature of this thread.

Just like television, bisexuality apparently can't exist in films. It's either straight or gay. How progressive are we when people use LGBT, and then forget there's three other letters in that grouping other than G.
 
I'm amused by the 'this character can't be gay, he likes women' nature of this thread.

Just like television, bisexuality apparently can't exist in films. It's either straight or gay. How progressive are we when people use LGBT, and then forget there's three other letters in that grouping other than G.

I think L and B is well represented
if the characters are women
. Even counting the DC universe on TV, there are lesbian scenes in Arrow and Gotham. kissykissyfaces.

meh.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Not every movie needs a romantic angle. I really liked that Winter Soldier had no forced romance.

I actually really loved that Widow was giving Steve shit the entire movie about his love life. That little bit opened up the character so much (especially even at the end where she's like "CALL THE NURSE FFS"); and it gave them a genuine camaraderie and banter that developed them both.
 

ReiGun

Member
I'm amused by the 'this character can't be gay, he likes women' nature of this thread.

Just like television, bisexuality apparently can't exist in films. It's either straight or gay. How progressive are we when people use LGBT, and then forget there's three other letters in that grouping other than G.

If you want to take it a step further, people also overlook the expansion of the label to LGBTQIA, adding "questioning," "intersex," and "asexual" to the original four groups.

The G takes up much of the attention in these kinds of discussions, I agree. I would say that, speaking anecdotally, that the L and the B (if it's a woman claiming the label) are generally accepted, but only because the male gaze is cool with women kissing. Especially if it's done in an exploitative way.
 

P44

Member
I think the correct way to write it is not: "Save my husband". The jarring aspect comes from you're expecting one thing from "Save my" and something else follows, its just because of audiences being trained to hear "Save my wife/kid".

I think the correct way is rather, the same characters husband or whatever gets totalled. He stumbles onto the scene in a panic, all, "Where is he?!", and then a touching scene which establishes the relationship between the deceased and the man without uttering a word. I guess in my eyes it works better because "Save my X" is such a nothing phrase, so the husband aspect expands such that it looks like the only reason that line was said, that character exists, is for a LGBT dimension.

In my example, there is more going on, you've got the empathy for the guy who's lost his SO, you've got the death toll from the villain or whatever which reinforces the villains status and as well you've got this explicit yet relatively more subtly done establishment of the relationship between the two.
 
Firstly, I don't really see how other sexualities are currently represented accurately to self-reported statistics to begin with, if there are currently none in the MCU.

However, even if they were I don't particularly see why one would take issue with fictional worlds providing positive representation beyond real world demographics in order to provide relatable role models for minorities.

EDIT: This was a general comment regarding this line of reasoning in the thread in general, it wasn't directed specifically at any one post.
 

P44

Member
Firstly, I don't really see how other sexualities are currently represented accurately to self-reported statistics to begin with, if there are currently none in the MCU.

However, even if they were I don't particularly see why one would take issue with fictional worlds providing positive representation beyond real world demographics in order to provide relatable role models for minorities.

I agree that the size of the demographic is really not really relevant here and I suppose my questions were more flippant or whatever.

I would rather, though, we did not write to fit some agenda or purpose. But naturally happen upon aspects of the character like this - I wrote a trans character recently (likely I butchered it a little) just because well, it felt right for the character somehow. I don't have experience or whatever, in fact dangerously little to write on trans issues. I've barely read much on it. it just...felt right for the character.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Dumbledore is an example of that. I'm sure Rowling had good intentions, but I don't recall a single bit of the entire Harry Potter books that made me go 'oh maybe he's gay'. She's telling, not showing, and that's total bullshit, and I'd never count that.

I don't think she had 'good' intentions in the sense that she decided to make Dumbledore gay to increase the social diversity present in her books in order to help combat harmful societal norms. I think Dumbledore as she imagined him simply happened to be gay, her intention was simply to write the character she imagined. There was never a part in the Harry Potter books that would make you think that (except possibly some of the brief references to Grindelwald), because Dumbledore's sexuality is never directly relevant to any of the material in the book. Why would it be mentioned? To go out of her way to mention or to bend the source material in order to fit it in is definitionally what tokenism is: saying 'hey, look, I have a gay character, and I am emphasizing the fact he is gay just to show I have a gay character'.

LGB people aren't defined solely by their sexuality. Except in spheres where you would expect their sexuality to be relevant, there's no narrative need to mention it. Dumbledore is a well-written gay character precisely because of this - he is well-written, and he also happens to be gay. It's just not his sole defining feature because he has depth. There are well-written gay characters who are explicitly gay, yes. This is a film example, but Omar from the Wire is obviously gay. But that never feels like tokenism because it directly affects his relationship and plot arc. Other characters treat him differently because of it, as you'd expect in impoverished areas of Baltimore. If Omar wasn't gay, you couldn't tell the same story. In contrast, if Dumbledore wasn't gay, the story would be (almost) exactly the same, with perhaps minor changes to the parts involving Grindelwald. That's why it's not mentioned.

This is why HUELEN is perfectly right to point out the heteronormative assumption. It's really harmful to just assume that any character who isn't explicitly defined as gay or doesn't have their sexuality revealed is therefore straight. It implies that being gay is the sole defining characteristic of gay people. As viewers and readers, we very rarely see the entirety of the lives of characters. Some books are written in first-person, some third-person narratives still describe the thoughts of some of the main characters. In these works, we'll probably be able to know whether the protagonist or these main characters are gay or not. Everyone else, whose thought processes aren't described? There's no reason to suppose they're straight. So why do it?

This is mostly a defense of Dumbledore and a criticism of tokenism. I agree that there's a need for well-written, explicitly gay characters whose plot arcs to at least some extent revolve around the extra burdens that being gay can place upon people, the discrimination it can bring. However, that doesn't mean that gay characters whose plot arcs don't revolve around this are bad, or that you can't be gay without this plot arc.
 

VegiHam

Member
I'm amused by the 'this character can't be gay, he likes women' nature of this thread.

Just like television, bisexuality apparently can't exist in films. It's either straight or gay. How progressive are we when people use LGBT, and then forget there's three other letters in that grouping other than G.

It's not that there aren't characters who could be LGBT. We've discussed earlier a couple of Agents of Shield characters who have a ton of tension. But there are no characters explicitly confirmed to swing any way other than straight so it'd be nice to not have to use our imagination. It's the trend that's the issue not the individual characters.

Similarly, when I read the seventh Harry Potter I totally got a gay vibe off Dumbledore's friendship with Grindlewald; but it wasn't really mentioned in the text itself and took exterior confirmation from Rowling ao it's more 'use your imagination' than actual representation.
 
There's a heteronormative assumption for the vast swathe of characters in these works, because they're adapted works.

If Northstar, Wiccan and Hulkling, Moondragon, were adapted the assumption would be they were the same sexuality as the source material.

There are heteronormative based assumptions on original characters though too, I suppose. Although these are more likely to be questioned #FitzMack.

On further thought there is one character I can think of, if it hasn't already been mentioned, Victoria Hand was actually in Agents of SHIELD.
 
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Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
However, even if they were I don't particularly see why one would take issue with fictional worlds providing positive representation beyond real world demographics in order to provide relatable role models for minorities.

I think this is the critical argument in this debate. To be honest, fuck representativeness. I don't really care if Marvel heroes do or do not represent the general population. I don't see why it is important that approximately one in every twenty Marvel heroes are gay or that four in every five in American settings are white. There doesn't seem to be any benefit to doing that. The reason we should care about having gay superheroes is because of what superheroes are. They're inspiring, amazing, super. They gave us escapism, but the best ones tackle our fears and problems through that, through the guise of fantasy or fiction. Think of all the small children that want to be superheroes.

One of the deepest fears and problems you can face in modern society comes from being gay. It's the fear that your friends will turn away from you if they found out, or that you'll be discriminated against at work, or that you'll never be able to find a partner because it's too risky to admit you're gay in your small-town environment. Having something that can help you through these fears and problems is important. Superheroes can at least contribute to that - especially so for the MCU. Knowing that 200 million people will go to watch a film and cheer on a gay man has an effect.

So, to be honest, fuck wanting things to be representative. Things probably are representative in the MCU as it stands, and even if they weren't, it's difficult to see why it is something we should innately want. I wouldn't want gay characters so the numbers add up. I'd want gay characters to help all of the people who could emotionally invest in those characters.
 

Paxem

Banned
I mean would you hold the same argument in regards to something like this?

exodus-cast.png


Because I'm sure it's what the director wants but it doesn't mean it's not gross and shitty.

Right of freedom stops when you insult someone or encourage violance. This is very obvious that I don't even have to mention. But gay involvement in MCU is not any of these.
 

etrain911

Member
What is pan/poly? I looked it up and it makes no sense.

Poly= polyamory, meaning being in a consensual relationship with more than one person with every person in both relationships knowing of the existence of the other relationships.

Pan=pansexuality, an attraction to all genders on the gender spectrum.
 
Poly= polyamory, meaning being in a consensual relationship with more than one person with every person in both relationships knowing of the existence of the other relationships.

Pan=pansexuality, an attraction to all genders on the gender spectrum.

See I've never understood the difference between bi and pan. Is there one?
 
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