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The Panama Papers - Massive leak of secret documents about offshore companies

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J

jellies_two

Member
Audioboxer said:
https://twitter.com/geraldhowarth/status/718099306188828672 (Tory MP)

It's like a comical villain running a country.
Click to expand...

its funny how a Tory MP is actually arguing that setting up an offshore family trust to store all your assets out of reach of dept. Inland revenue is basically morally no worse than a salary man claiming a deduction they are entitled to. And not doing so is foolish.
Because that's their argument, right? And it goes for corporations like google as well: everything that is not forbidden, is allowed, and everything that is not forbidden is equal. No shades of grey, if a court hasn't found something to be illegal, it's all good.

The tax department of your own country should be treated like a thief, and be fought down to the mat. Every loophole should be exploited to the max.
 
A

Acorn

Member
Fucking typical the one time in my life I want the tory pm to stay in power (until the eu referendum is done then back to fuck the cunts) he's gonna end up gone.

We're gonna have a brexit pm if he goes, Tory members and mps aren't voting in anyone pro eu.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
jellies_two said:
its funny how a Tory MP is actually arguing that setting up an offshore family trust to store all your assets out of reach of dept. Inland revenue is basically morally no worse than a salary man claiming a deduction they are entitled to. And not doing so is foolish.
Because that's their argument, right? And it goes for corporations like google as well: everything that is not forbidden, is allowed, and everything that is not forbidden is equal. No shades of grey, if a court hasn't found something to be illegal, it's all good.

The tax department of your own country should be treated like a thief, and be fought down to the mat. Every loophole should be exploited to the max.
Click to expand...

It's okay, GAF found a way to buy Dark Souls 3 from the JP Xbox One store and get the EU/US copy legally without even living in Japan. We all benefit.

Realistically, smh. The everyday man and women gets chariot chased to the end of the earth over anything suspicious tax wise. The top elite need to have their ways to make their money count, morally shoddy or not, right? POWER TO THE KING!
 
H

Harmen

Member
I wonder what would happen if every person capable of doing so would do some of that legal tax avoidance, I think the governments would be in panic mode rather quickly.

(in the Netherlands, small businesses and people not overly rich also used it, showing it is not exclusively accessible to the absolute financial elite)



I seriously hope this will be made much more difficult in the future, illegal even, as it breaks the system we have in place for maintaining stuff like education, healthcare, infrastructure etc.
 
J

jellies_two

Member
Just want to drop this here, Vice did a fantastic article in 2014 that predates the hack - perhaps inspired
The hack itself? and in the comments at the end of the vice article:

vw3alsU.png


Also in the article it is clear Nevada is a huge piece of the USA end of this offshore business.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
jellies_two said:
its funny how a Tory MP is actually arguing that setting up an offshore family trust to store all your assets out of reach of dept. Inland revenue is basically morally no worse than a salary man claiming a deduction they are entitled to. And not doing so is foolish.
Because that's their argument, right? And it goes for corporations like google as well: everything that is not forbidden, is allowed, and everything that is not forbidden is equal. No shades of grey, if a court hasn't found something to be illegal, it's all good.

The tax department of your own country should be treated like a thief, and be fought down to the mat. Every loophole should be exploited to the max.
Click to expand...

Exactly, and those laws were already there! Right in the Magna Carta! It's not like other corrupt individuals and power brokers inserted those tax loopholes into the law via corrupt influence.

Yet again the proles are simply whining about stuff far beyond their comprehension.
 
B

BowieZ

Banned
God, watching Sky News right now. They are going to bat for Cameron right now.

The talking points appear to be:

- nothing illegal
- not done for tax avoidance, done to avoid DOUBLE tax
- "invest"
- his right to do what he wants with his money and do it privately
- "natural" of Cameron to defend his dead father who can't defend himself
 
B

Beefy

Member
BowieZ said:
God, watching Sky News right now. They are going to bat for Cameron right now.

The talking points appear to be:

- nothing illegal
- not done for tax avoidance, done to avoid DOUBLE tax
- "invest"
- his right to do what he wants with his money and do it privately
- "natural" of Cameron to defend his dead father who can't defend himself
Click to expand...

That wasn't Sky news was it? It was a Tory mp defending him. So basically helping his boss out.
 
C

ClosingADoor

Member
BowieZ said:
God, watching Sky News right now. They are going to bat for Cameron right now.

The talking points appear to be:

- nothing illegal
- not done for tax avoidance, done to avoid DOUBLE tax
- "invest"
- his right to do what he wants with his money and do it privately
- "natural" of Cameron to defend his dead father who can't defend himself
Click to expand...
That's the fucking problem, can't these guys understand that. It should be illegal to use these schemes to prevent paying taxes. You earn it, you get taxed for it. No bullshitting around.
 
TwiztidElf

TwiztidElf

Member
So if this exposure is a result of leaked documents from the "world’s fourth biggest provider of offshore services", surely there is sufficient grounds for an investigation into the other three?
 
B

BowieZ

Banned
Beefy said:
That wasn't Sky news was it? It was a Tory mp defending him. So basically helping his boss out.
Click to expand...
You're making me second guess myself now (I hardly ever watch Sky News) but I'm pretty sure it was some young British anchorwoman with extreme make up and thick high eyebrows (interviewing and swiftly criticising the "hypocrisy" of some former MP), followed by analysts and a "financial expert" guest lady who all came to the conclusion that he's done nothing wrong, everything was legitimate and it's really just about how he avoided answering truthfully about it in the last few days.

Not sure if these are the talking points in other channels of the media but I just posted it because it struck me how defensive and dismissive the hosts and guests were being.
 
B

Beefy

Member
BowieZ said:
You're making me second guess myself now (I hardly ever watch Sky News) but I'm pretty sure it was some young British anchorwoman with extreme make up and thick high eyebrows (interviewing and swiftly criticising the "hypocrisy" of Ken Alexander), followed by analysts and a "financial expert" guest lady who all came to the conclusion that he's done nothing wrong, everything was legitimate and it's really just about how he avoided answering truthfully about it in the last few days.

Not sure if these are the talking points in other channels of the media but I just posted it because it struck me how defensive and dismissive the hosts and guests were being.
Click to expand...

I didn't see that. I saw a bald guy who was a Tory mp saying the exact same thing. So thought it was that you were on about.
 
T

ThLunarian

Member
backslashbunny said:
Not when it comes to the language of tax.

Tax avoidance is legal and encouraged, though usually this only happens when you have enough resources to do so.

Tax evasion is excessive tax avoidance. The difference is not demarcated clearly and is usually determined by the tax agency, and then challenged in various courts if there's no agreement. At least, that's how it works in the US.
Click to expand...

To elaborate on this, tax evasion is to defy the law (for example, not reporting income that should have been reported, just so you don't have to pay tax on it).

Tax avoidance is to exercise every possible legal means at your disposal, in order to pay the minimum possible amount of tax within the law (for example, realizing that you can deduct mortgage interest when you may not have been aware that you could do that before, and so you start exercising that legal method of decreasing how much tax you have to pay).

Evasion requires either deception, or ignorance of the law; avoidance means being both completely truthful and knowing the law very, very well.

Like BackslashBunny mentioned, there are occasionally blurry lines between the two; when that happens, either the reigning tax authority or the courts decide.
 
M

MikeyB

Member
Pretty sure that half of the discussion on this topic could be resolved if people were aware of the is=/=ought fallacy. Just cause something is formally "just" does not mean it is just.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Spaghetti said:
I actually can't believe there's a tax evasion defence force in this very thread.
Click to expand...

There's a defence force for everything. People are right to point out it's legal, but it's completely immoral, especially when their mouths say one thing (we're stamping out tax evasion), but their actions another. Plus not admitting it as an MP is sketchy, followed up with the 4~5 different answers given by Cameron in the one week.

It also doesn't help when you're viciously attacking public services, and moaning about costs and the need for more taxes in the UK, then not paying into the system fairly yourself as a rich man with the most power in the UK. It's a clear conflict of interest to say you're going after loopholes whilst using them yourself ~ Chances are you're not going to cut off your own interests...
 
V

Vicetrailia

Banned
I love the Fox News spin on why there aren't many Americans getting called out here. Truly hilarious. Propaganda rich.

If Fox New is your only source of political information, there is absolutely no way that you will understand anything about the world in which you live in.
 
F

Frodo

Member
Audioboxer said:
There's a defence force for everything. People are right to point out it's legal, but it's completely immoral, especially when their mouths say one thing (we're stamping out tax evasion), but their actions another. Plus not admitting it as an MP is sketchy, followed up with the 4~5 different answers given by Cameron in the one week.

It also doesn't help when you're viciously attacking public services, and moaning about costs and the need for more taxes in the UK, then not paying into the system fairly yourself as a rich man with the most power in the UK. It's a clear conflict of interest to say you're going after loopholes whilst using them yourself ~ Chances are you're not going to cut off your own interests...
Click to expand...

Ding ding ding ding ding!!!!
 
C

Cheesecakebobby

Banned
Not living in the UK any more I'm very out of the loop about how it has affected Cameron and other politicians/ public figures. I understand his family profited from offshore accounts and that the Tories tried to weasel out of admitting the truth by releasing carefully-worded statements, bringing to mind a classic Bill Clinton tactic.

That alone gives me more reason to hate Cameron and the Tories, but I do think it matters that what he or rather his father did was legal. What I want to know is, in all his talk about stopping tax avoidance, has Cameron said specifically that he wants to make the behaviour he profited from illegal?
 
S

SamVimes

Member
backslashbunny said:
It's not semantic spin.

I'm not saying that it's morally/ethically right, but in tax, there IS a legal difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance.

Like I always tell my partner, just because **you** personally don't like it or don't think it's correct, doesn't make it not the reality.

I mean, hell, on your list, "hedging" is a synonym for evasion, but hedging and evasion are two different financial concepts (investing and tax, respectively).
Click to expand...

Why even bring it up?If it's legal or not is not really the problem.
 
Theonik

Theonik

Member
ClosingADoor said:
That's the fucking problem, can't these guys understand that. It should be illegal to use these schemes to prevent paying taxes. You earn it, you get taxed for it. No bullshitting around.
Click to expand...
See I'd almost be OK with it if it wasn't for the fact that these people put those loopholes in there in the first place for them and their 'friends' to exploit.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
"Labor is terrible we should vote Tory!"

"You're right but Tories have worked out worse every time we've done that though "

"Shut up you slaaaaag "

Maybe next time.
 
D

Dirtyshubb

Member
I really hope this all causes some serious changes to how the UK public see the tories, things need to change with the clear double standards they show.

I swear the bubble most of their voters live in are disgusting. I work with a guy who is nice overall but sometimes the shit he comes out with leaves me astounded. Him and his boyfriend are quite well off and he relishes in his poshness and out of touchness which can be funny but at tomes is sickening. When we were talking about this whole Cameron tax thing he said "everyone is going on about it but it isn't even that much, only £2.5m." and the rest of us were just laughing at how ridiculous that statement was. He also talked about a friend of his who is a non dom living between UK, legos and miami and pays no income tax at all, all mentioned without any sense of it being wrong.

So many tories just don't know what it's like being someone who hasn't had rich parents or connections to get ahead of everyone. They have never had to decide on whether to top up your electricity or gas meter because you can only afford to put £10 on one of them. They think they understand what struggling is yet they either have no fucking clue or assume every poor person is some scrounger gaming the system when it's normally them that is doing it.
 
Audioboxer

Audioboxer

Member
Dirtyshubb said:
I really hope this all causes some serious changes to how the UK public see the tories, things need to change with the clear double standards they show.

I swear the bubble most of their voters live in are disgusting. I work with a guy who is nice overall but sometimes the shit he comes out with leaves me astounded. Him and his boyfriend are quite well off and he relishes in his poshness and out of touchness which can be funny but at tomes is sickening. When we were talking about this whole Cameron tax thing he said "everyone is going on about it but it isn't even that much, only £2.5m." and the rest of us were just laughing at how ridiculous that statement was. He also talked about a friend of his who is a non dom living between UK, legos and miami and pays no income tax at all, all mentioned without any sense of it being wrong.

So many tories just don't know what it's like being someone who hasn't had rich parents or connections to get ahead of everyone. They have never had to decide on whether to top up your electricity or gas meter because you can only afford to put £10 on one of them. They think they understand what struggling is yet they either have no fucking clue or assume every poor person is some scrounger gaming the system when it's normally them that is doing it.
Click to expand...

Money and wealth screws up the compassionate side of a lot of rich people. Thing is, someones personal stance is one thing, but having a Government run a country riddled with individuals with such a personal stance is another. Being an MP will make you good money, but the Tory party is almost all millionaires at the top. It's not very balanced. MPs need to represent a wide range of citizens, not just the elite.

I guess the difficulty is if we have enough people who think like your friend voting for a party almost made just to prop up the rich superiority complex it does become an issue what individuals think. We just have to hope we can get everyday people invigorated by politics and lower the lack of turnout on polling days. Votes count and it is always depressing seeing turnout figures.

Personally I think things like this will help improve the UK turnout. We seen a referendum up here get Scotland switched on politically, hopefully England is going to head in this direction going forward (larger voting turnouts and people interested in politics).

The Tories are probably wishing they were having their conference offshore. #ResignDavidCameron #ResignCameron #cameronmustgo
Click to expand...

https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond/status/718771552699944960

lol. Kaz Hirai CEO like savageness.
 
D

Dirtyshubb

Member
I honestly think that you have 2 types of Torry voters:

1 - young non poor people who have done well thanks to their parents being middle class and not struggling for money. They see that their life is fine and attribute it to the tories because 'they can't be that bad, my life is good' all while neglecting the benefits that they have had compared to others and also having no actual policies in mind that directly benefited them.

2 - well off people who think they deserve everything they got because of hard work, again ignoring the leg up they had. They also think poor people deserve it but realise they can't say that amongst most people.

I suppose all we can hope is teach the young voters that they are wrong and that the tories only help themselves and big business. For the well off, we need laws changed to prevent tax avoidance and all loopholes that help male the rich richer and the poor poorer but how do we do that when we have the current people in charge?

Only way I see is sustained protests that don't get forgotten a week later but convincing people to do that is hard since most can't be bothered to fight for their rights.
 
J

jimbobsmells

Member
Dirtyshubb said:
I honestly think that you have 2 types of Torry voters:

1 - young non poor people who have done well thanks to their parents being middle class and not struggling for money. They see that their life is fine and attribute it to the tories because 'they can't be that bad, my life is good' all while neglecting the benefits that they have had compared to others and also having no actual policies in mind that directly benefited them.

2 - well off people who think they deserve everything they got because of hard work, again ignoring the leg up they had. They also think poor people deserve it but realise they can't say that amongst most people.

I suppose all we can hope is teach the young voters that they are wrong and that the tories only help themselves and big business. For the well off, we need laws changed to prevent tax avoidance and all loopholes that help male the rich richer and the poor poorer but how do we do that when we have the current people in charge?

Only way I see is sustained protests that don't get forgotten a week later but convincing people to do that is hard since most can't be bothered to fight for their rights.
Click to expand...
You forgot the 'I'm never voting Labour again because they spent all the money last time' voters. I personally know of a few (and they are all on minimum wage) who think like this.
 
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