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[Brashnir]

What reason could MS have for failing to inform FarSight their product which they paid to be reviewed failed to properly function when a memory card was removed while being accessed the first time it was submitted?

What need to they have to continue testing once they reject something? I imagine they rejected it previous times for something earlier on their checklist. QA is the developer's job, not the platform holder.

This product is a fucking mess. Has any version of it consistently functioned correctly to this point?

 

[Minsc]

What need to they have to continue testing once they reject something? I imagine they rejected it previous times for something earlier on their checklist. QA is the developer's job, not the platform holder.

This product is a fucking mess. Has any version of it consistently functioned correctly to this point?

You're definitely over-reacting, and if you're talking about incompetence (which to be fair FarSight certainly is), MS is also to blame. If you're paying someone to review something for problems, and they fail to tell you all the problems it has, what is the point?

Say there are 100 different minor issues like this memory one (which is completely ridiculous). Do you think it's efficient to troubleshoot these 100 issues over a 10 year period or a 1-month period? FarSight has a little insight to the matter:

Just to clarify it's not free, it's actually quite expensive to submit to Microsoft.

And while the TCRs may seem straight forward, sometimes they are up for interpretation, and we end up failing a submission because they intepret it differently.

Between the functional, compliance and tcr documents there are over 370 pages of issues. It's quiet easy to miss one.

So again, talking about competence, should the person reviewing the product who you are paying a lot of money spend 10 years pointing out flaws or 1 month?

The game has minor issues for some people and does work very well for the vast majority. Most people have played dozens of hours with minimal issues, and if one table has a problem, it gets fixed and there are still plenty of others in the meantime. A bug like what it was rejected for does not actually effect the game's ability to play correctly either.

 

[Brashnir]

You're definitely over-reacting, and if you're talking about incompetence (which to be fair FarSight certainly is), MS is also to blame. If you're paying someone to review something for problems, and they fail to tell you all the problems it has, what is the point?

Say there are 100 different minor issues like this memory one (which is completely ridiculous). Do you think it's efficient to troubleshoot these 100 issues over a 10 year period or a 1-month period? FarSight has a little insight to the matter:



So again, talking about competence, should the person reviewing the product who you are paying a lot of money spend 10 years pointing out flaws or 1 month?

The game has minor issues for some people and does work very well for the vast majority. Most people have played dozens of hours with minimal issues, and if one table has a problem, it gets fixed and there are still plenty of others in the meantime. A bug like what it was rejected for does not actually effect the game's ability to play correctly either.

Why isn't Farsight finding these issues? The guidelines are known to developers prior to submission. How are so many products released, updated, and approved on the service already and yet this one developer spends month after month failing? Developers that consist of one human are able to get their games ready for submission before shipping them off.

Every single release for this game is rushed out the door before it's ready. Farsight is to blame. Nobody else.

 

[Minsc]

Why isn't Farsight finding these issues?

Isn't this what they are paying MS to do? Which they clearly failed to do the first few times? The guidelines apparently consist of 370 pages of fine print, so it's not hard to imagine slipping up on a few things for someone new to this process like FarSight. Zen faired worse from what I read, and their publisher is MS.

 

[Brashnir]

Isn't this what they are paying MS to do? Which they clearly failed to do the first few times?

When you submit a game, you're submitting it to be approved and put on sale, not for MS to do your QA for you.

Why aren't they finding these issues before submission?

The guidelines apparently consist of 370 pages of fine print, so it's not hard to imagine slipping up on a few things for someone new to this process like FarSight.

So print them larger and have someone on your QA team run through them before submitting, like any decent software company.

Zen faired worse from what I read, and their publisher is MS.

Pinball FX2 had a 4-table DLC pack released 5 weeks after the game's initial release.

 

[jgkspsx]

When you submit a game, you're submitting it to be approved and put on sale, not for MS to do your QA for you.

Why aren't they finding these issues before submission?

This latest issue is a practical non-issue. What a crock. I almost wonder if somebody at Microsoft actually hates them...

 

[added_time]

Did you guys see the Fez thread? I think Microsoft is screwing everyone with their submission crap for patches.
I've always liked XBLA but if it is easier for developers to do things on wii-U (hopefully), PSN or PC then I will just put my money there. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[Brashnir]

Did you guys see the Fez thread? I think Microsoft is screwing everyone with their submission crap for patches.
I've always liked XBLA but if it is easier for developers to do things on wii-U (hopefully), PSN or PC then I will just put my money there. It's getting ridiculous.

The fees MS charges are a bit absurd, but Farsight's inability to deliver a working product, given that they have the exact same checklist in their possession that is being used by MS, is equally absurd.

QA your product before submitting, Farsight.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Eh? You're blaming Farsight for Microsoft's stupidity and crazy submission processes?

They've consistently failed to deliver a functioning product over a number of platforms, the crazy memory card bug is just the last straw, not the issue, here.

You're really going to hold them to ill will over not testing what happens if you remove a memory card while loading the game from it (and why pay all that money when MS didn't complain about that error before, it existed before and they submitted previously without being told about it...)?

Nope! Everything else tho, yeah...

Heh. Well, you're welcome to move on to the other pinball sims that companies are producing I say! If only there were any!

tell me about it :/

Really though, from reading this is just how things work with MS. Zen Studios had even more trouble than FarSight is having now, and they had prior experience with it, which FarSight lacked (lol). I think realistic expectations going forth are 2-3 DLC releases a year of 4-6 table packs on consoles, and monthly packs elsewhere.

I'd be ok with that. They've also handled terribily PR and any annoucements, especially those about PC and 3DS.
Either way, not going to back up other kickstarter till they fix their stuff together.
Don't read it the wrong way tho, I love those guys, I want PA to succed and I'll triple (or even quadruple if the 3DS port ever happens) dip at the end of the day (iOS, X360, PC).

 

[BolognaSoup]

Farsight's website looks like is hasn't been updated since 1994. It's no wonder the UI in their game is so hideous. http://www.farsightstudios.com/

 

[plagiarize]

mark me down as the most recent defector to the PS3 version. i don't know if i'd flat out say the lighting is 'better' but i love the feeling of being in a dimly lit bar or bowling alley it brings with it. that's where i played most of my physical pinball.

i didn't get bride of pinobot and medieval madness yet (MM seems fun, but yeah, BOP is just one shot over and over) but i probably will. i'm loving Funhouse and Circus Voltaire and they really fit the new moody lighting with their themes and colour schemes.

really looking forwards to Creature from the Black Lagoon it's such a good combination of drive in and monster movie. it's a shame the game doesn't support 3D to really help sell that hologram

 

[Kai Dracon]

Heh, my only practical problem with PA right now is that I'm fixated on mastering Black Hole before moving on to any other table.

Whether this is accurate or not, I get the impression it's basically a minimalist technique table. Your initial barrier of entry into being pretty good at pinball.

 

[MarshMellow96]

Farsight's Facebook page has DLC packs 1 and 2 as 'mid-August' for EU. Goddammit I'm giving up.

 

[Jucksalbe]

Farsight's Facebook page has DLC packs 1 and 2 as 'mid-August' for EU. Goddammit I'm giving up.

They always said they will come about 4-6 weeks after the game releases.

 

[Gillian Seed]

So we know we will not the 360 DLC until sometime in August. But the PS3 Update Trophy Patch should be out by now right?

 

[Jucksalbe]

So we know we will not the 360 DLC until sometime in August.

Well....actually, the 360 got a patch today. This has to be a good sign, right?

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Well....actually, the 360 got a patch today. This has to be a good sign, right?

Update's 21MB. As soon as you start the main game, you are prompted to download a new update, but no such update exists...yet. Must be a separate package that contains lighting and table changes or something because it isn't clearly evident to me what exactly happened but anything behind the scenes, presumably to enable the aforementioned changes but also subtly altering the current experience. Feels like I've seen new glitches, like hopping up onto a high rail from the floor when no such ability exists previous. Also, seems like Ripley's is slower, overall, and an increase in stuck flippers and slightly laggier feel are now noticeable on some tables during multiball in TotAN or ToM, I can't remember which. As well, there seems to be strange and noticeable visual issues, like a more apparent variable ball reflection or some sort of cap on it and the blur leading to some ugly stepping or what appears to be a frameskipping effect as the ball moves upward at its highest attainable speeds on the table. Guess we'll have to wait for the in-game update to be made available or something. Hope this means the other tables are nearer to release thanks to this main update.

 

[Gillian Seed]

Interesting. I am gonna go download it now.

 

[added_time]

So the 360 patch makes it play a bit worse right now? I guess I'll hold off for a while.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

So the 360 patch makes it play a bit worse right now? I guess I'll hold off for a while.

Well, not altogether worse, but configured differently and that introduced new quirks. The DMD is more saturated and its pixel structure made more apparent, so as to be almost too sharp and bright, but closer to the real thing. Also, the physics may be more tweaked and improved upon, in general, but it may just be me looking for things now that existed before.

 

[Gillian Seed]

The Lighting Patch made the tables much dimmer on the PS3 so that the LED Lights would be easier to see. I did not like it at first, but i finally realized it makes the experience more realistic.

 

[Shaneus]

How long has it been since the last content update for iOS? I understand there's the approval delay or whatever, but that would've happened with the last update... which I'm sure was over a month ago.

 

[Shearie]

Update is out for iOS. YAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

 

[Shaneus]

Yes!!! I wonder if they've fixed/updated anything with any other tables?

BTW, my brother messaged me this today, from my local arcade

I think I know what I'm doing tomorrow. Loading up a card with $50 or so and spending the whole fucking day on that machine. Maybe I'll break for lunch.

Edit: Game CENTER SUPPORT! CGAMEO# CENTHER!!~! FSAIFQQTPAS

Only mentions the one table on the icon though?

 

[BobTheFork]

Yes!!! I wonder if they've fixed/updated anything with any other tables?

BTW, my brother messaged me this today, from my local arcade

Not bad but that's only the regular/pro version. The LE has a 'hell' lower playfield that;s really cool. Also the bell swings and it has more cool parts and graphics. All of the songs with hell in the title give you a chance to use the lower playfield. Honestly, after playing the LE so much in town I can't play the regular. I'm not sure how those songs even work with out the hell field. Still a great game. Great to see Stern move away from movie themes.

The XMEN pin cam out 2 weeks ago from Stern. I think the software isn't quite done but it's a great game. Comic themed and not movie themes is the way to go.

Edit: I bought my third pin yesterday. I bought a beat up Galaxy (Stern, 1980) for really cheap. The cabinet is rough and the field was about as dirty as it gets. The speaker in it is dead and one of the scores is out. He sold it super cheap because some of the solenoid weren't firing and he could not figure out how to fix it. I spent all night working it over. I got it taken apart, I cleaned the crap out of it and worked on the solenoid issue. It cleaned up really well. It's wasn't really a coil or board issue either. One of the wire going from the Solenoid board to the mpu wasn't touching. I just had to strip and re-crimp it and it starting working perfectly. I order some new rubber for the field and I'll get a new score display when I have more cash. It could really use some LED's as well. I honestly don't know shit about how to really fix a pin but damned if I don't love opening them up and cleaning them.
Pics

Here are my other two

Long live pin!

 

[Shaneus]

God damn man, don't remind me about the LE! I didn't realise that about the bell though, I thought that was on all of them (knew about the playfield)

Still, looking forward to playing it. Do you know who designed Xmen? I've been too busy jizzing over a Steve Ritchie-designed AC/DC game to notice/care


Edit: Nice work on those machines! I only live in a single bedroom unit so there's literally no room (unless I use my garage) but I have a friend who has around 30-40 or so who's always said I can have any one (or two or three) I want as they're all in storage. I think I'd probably pick T2 or Whitewater

If I was to buy one myself (that he didn't own) it'd hands-down be Taxi. I've not used one in person, but I *love* it on Williams Pinball Classics. Such a great theme, with good flow and a not-too-busy playfield with no real cheap novelties. Plus, I'm a sucker for alphanumeric titles!

How do you find maintenance on your existing ones? Is it generally fuck-all once you have them up to scratch, like a tweak here or there every few months or so?

 

[BobTheFork]

God damn man, don't remind me about the LE! I didn't realise that about the bell though, I thought that was on all of them (knew about the playfield)

Still, looking forward to playing it. Do you know who designed Xmen? I've been too busy jizzing over a Steve Ritchie-designed AC/DC game to notice/care

I should but I don't. It's interesting: it might be more linear than I have ever seen in a pin. At least right now you have to get MAgneto multiball first before starting any character or villian modes. I think you have to keep getting magneto over and over to start new villian modes and you can only get lit multiball shots from hero modes. So it's this weird progression where what you need to shoot at to get the big points is kind of set in stone (for now at least). as I said I'm pretty sure they are going to update the software very soon and they put it out for production schedule deadlines.

Whitewater is great. More than anything right now I want a BlackKnight. I'm kind of pissed because over the weekend a cheap one that needed work was up but I didn't see it in time so I moved on Galaxy. I think 70-80's pins are my sweet spot. I really want my next one to have multiball though as these older ones don't have it. Yeah I don't have much room, I live in a single bedroom place and it's getting crammed. I want to keep living here another year but than I could get or rent a house for what I have to pay in rent here and then I can have a good place for them. There's a Super Pacman cabinet not pictured.

 

[Shaneus]

My mate managed to score a (quite literally) never-played Black Knight machine in the best condition you've ever seen. What did it cost him? A Street Fighter 2 upright

(the existing owner was completely fucking clueless ahaha)

BTW It doesn't look like *any* existing tables have been updated. When trying to open each one, it just opened straight away, didn't download a new table. Traditionally it has when there's been a significant fix (lighting, bugs etc). So I guess the gap in the flippers on MM is still there

 

[Shaneus]

It's a fair indication of the state of the game when it gets GC support (though that is laughable... honestly) and two new tables, yet this thread isn't any busier than it was pre-update. Black Knight has a fault where it's almost impossible to view the left flipper in the upper playfield and several missing sounds, but the rest of it is quite good. CFTBL is a fair amount of fun!

But no fixes for existing tables though in this update... shame, because that flipper gap in MM still shits me to tears.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

mark me down as the most recent defector to the PS3 version. i don't know if i'd flat out say the lighting is 'better' but i love the feeling of being in a dimly lit bar or bowling alley it brings with it. that's where i played most of my physical pinball

Is the ps3 the best version out there currently? I've been holding off hoping that either the pc version comes out or the 360 version gets fixed/updated. I tried the iOS version buy I can't get into playing pinball on my phone. If the ps3 is the best version and that is likely to continue, I guess I should at least try it.

 

[Shaneus]

I think it's the best in that's the most up-to-date (compared to iOS/Android), but that's it.

 

[Tomasooie]

Farsight's website looks like is hasn't been updated since 1994. It's no wonder the UI in their game is so hideous. http://www.farsightstudios.com/

Lol, I can't believe they're the ones who made Action 52.
That game is legendarily terrible.

Edit: Though looking into it: they're responsible for the Genesis one, which isn't as infamous.

 

[FoxSpirit]

On my SGS-II the update really improved overall performance. Finally Bride of Pinbot runs fluid again. Also an update Monster Bash, hope it's stable now.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Lol, I can't believe they're the ones who made Action 52.
That game is legendarily terrible.

Edit: Though looking into it: they're responsible for the Genesis one, which isn't as infamous.

Angry Video Game Nerd takes on the Genesis Action 52 here (and Cheetahmen/2 from the NES version)

 

[Elvin Atombender]

Is the ps3 the best version out there currently?

I'm having serious trouble with input delay on the PS3-version. If a ball comes down quickly it sometimes bounces on the flipper before the flipper "reacts" to my input. It can also be hard to aim towards the sides because the ball sometimes rolls over the edge of the flipper before the flipper moves.

I guess you can get used to it and adjust a bit but it has made me play this very little so far.

 

[LamerDeluxe]

I'm having serious trouble with input delay on the PS3-version. If a ball comes down quickly it sometimes bounces on the flipper before the flipper "reacts" to my input. It can also be hard to aim towards the sides because the ball sometimes rolls over the edge of the flipper before the flipper moves.

I guess you can get used to it and adjust a bit but it has made me play this very little so far.

Same here, it makes the PS3 version completely unplayable for me, compared to the Vita version. Tested all PS3 and monitor settings, but nothing helped.

 

[TheGuardian]

I'm having serious trouble with input delay on the PS3-version. If a ball comes down quickly it sometimes bounces on the flipper before the flipper "reacts" to my input. It can also be hard to aim towards the sides because the ball sometimes rolls over the edge of the flipper before the flipper moves.

I guess you can get used to it and adjust a bit but it has made me play this very little so far.

I have the same problem. Tried the PS3 demo and ended up giving up on the game. Later tried the iPad version and that one works perfectly. Is the Vita version the same?

 

[LamerDeluxe]

I have the same problem. Tried the PS3 demo and ended up giving up on the game. Later tried the iPad version and that one works perfectly. Is the Vita version the same?

The Vita version looks similar to the one I have on Android. I has zero input lag and the fast OLED display really helps. Playing vertically is also possible.

 

[Minsc]

I'm having serious trouble with input delay on the PS3-version. If a ball comes down quickly it sometimes bounces on the flipper before the flipper "reacts" to my input. It can also be hard to aim towards the sides because the ball sometimes rolls over the edge of the flipper before the flipper moves.

I guess you can get used to it and adjust a bit but it has made me play this very little so far.

This was posted on pinballarcadefans:

comment on Facebook
Currently, there is a slight lag on the PS3 version that does not exist on the 360 version. On the next PS3 update, there will no longer be this lag (deferred rendering delay) when the game is played at 720p. At 1080p, there will still be a 1/60 of a second delay required for us to render the additional lighting effects. This all said, you do need to have your display/input settings correct or there will be a lag depending on the type of TV you're displaying on. We're not in control of this.

So maybe that will help.

 

[jvm]

I had another friend come over and try Pinball Arcade and he missed the first ball completely. As it went down the drain he looked at me and asked if the delay in reaction was intentional. So the lag is really there, because I'd never discussed the game with him before and he noticed it on his own.

Why it doesn't bother me, I still don't know. I can play all day and enjoy the game immensely.

Regardless, given that I've now seen two independent visitors try the game and find it unplayable because of lag, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy it until Farsight addresses the issue. It would be great just to know they've acknowledged it...

Edit: And while I'm typing, Minsc addresses my last point...

Edit 2: lolwut. I have to set my TV to 720p to get the lag out of their rendering, separate from any delay introduced by the TV itself? What?

 

[lobdale]

I had another friend come over and try Pinball Arcade and he missed the first ball completely. As it went down the drain he looked at me and asked if the delay in reaction was intentional. So the lag is really there, because I'd never discussed the game with him before and he noticed it on his own.

Why it doesn't bother me, I still don't know. I can play all day and enjoy the game immensely.

Regardless, given that I've now seen two independent visitors try the game and find it unplayable because of lag, I wouldn't recommend anyone buy it until Farsight addresses the issue. It would be great just to know they've acknowledged it...

Edit: And while I'm typing, Minsc addresses my last point...

Edit 2: lolwut. I have to set my TV to 720p to get the lag out of their rendering, separate from any delay introduced by the TV itself? What?

I set mine at 720p specifically for this game cause it was suggested it would reduce the lag--no change whatsoever. So maybe they really are "fixing" it now.

 

[Minsc]

Edit 2: lolwut. I have to set my TV to 720p to get the lag out of their rendering, separate from any delay introduced by the TV itself? What?

It just says you need to run the game in 720p to eliminate the lag after the next patch... does that mean you have to go to the PS3 system options every time you want to play, or is there a way to get it to stick per game? Would be nice if there was a setting in the game itself to pick resolution. Guess with the fancy lighting there's not enough power/memory to pull it off at 1080p.

Hopefully when the lighting update comes out for the 360, it doesn't add the PS3's lag to it.

 

[jvm]

It just says you need to run the game in 720p to eliminate the lag after the next patch... does that mean you have to go to the PS3 system options every time you want to play, or is there a way to get it to stick per game? Would be nice if there was a setting in the game itself to pick resolution. Guess with the fancy lighting there's not enough power/memory to pull it off at 1080p.

Hopefully when the lighting update comes out for the 360, it doesn't add the PS3's lag to it.

It's been a while, so hopefully someone can correct if I'm wrong...

I think if you want to force 720p in a game that supports 720p and 1080p, you have to set the system globally to 720p. I can't recall if that's a TV thing (i.e. force TV to 720p and then the PS3 will only do 720p) or a PS3 thing (set system itself to 720p max), but regardless, I don't think there's a way to have a single game play at 720p without affecting everything else.

 

[GitarooMan]

Can't believe after all that waiting how they half-assed the Game Center support, not even score leaderboards for individual tables....seriously?

 

[Shaneus]

And you still need to use Facebook to login. And any scores earned offline aren't uploaded later. It's shit. Not even using some kind of offline mode to upload scores to FB when you have a connection is pretty woeful.

 

[Mrhorseshoe]

They need to fix the Vita version so I can play vertically with the buttons instead of the touch screen.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

So what GAF is telling me is all versions are broken.

 

[added_time]

So what GAF is telling me is all versions are broken.

The 360 version barely exists and all other versions are broken!
It's all been great news out of the Farsight camp!

 

[Shiv47]

I stupidly bought both the 360 and PS3 versions once released, but the problems with the game have kept me from buying any of the downloadable tables. With so many other games to play, why bother until they get it right (if ever)? I'm not going to reward their overreaching by continuing to give them my money. I wish they would have picked two platforms max to start, made them perfect, and then added others. I'd have been happy to wait for a product that played as well as PHoF.

 

[plagiarize]

So what GAF is telling me is all versions are broken.

pretty much. the 360 version plays the best, but looks worse than the PS3 version and doesn't have any DLC tables yet.

this talk of switching to 720p to get rid of the lag in the PS3 version is promising and yet saddening at the same time.

i really hope they don't bungle the PC version.