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The Republican Brain: The Science of Why They Deny Science - and Reality

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Hari Seldon

Member
Social science is very much science. It draws conclusions from data. The data just (in this case) happen to be comprised of statements made by people. If you exclude social science as science, then you'll have to maintain that the study of people is largely out of the realm of science entirely. Even "hard" neuroscience frequently requires reliance on what people say for its data. This isn't to say that social science is as hard of a science as physics, or even neuroscience, but it is definitely science, and I find it to be one of the most enlightening sciences at that.



And when laborers are starved of money, either through income inequality or misguided "fiscal conservatism," demand dries up, investment slows, and economies shrink.


Social science, and a large part of medical science, is a giant pile of mathematical shit. To me it is not a real science until you can postulate and then test a causal relationship. Just using blind statistics, with shitty sampling techniques, does not make for real science. That is what a large part of of these social science and shitty medical studies do. Sure it may (if sampling is done correctly - a big IF), give you a correlation, but correlation is not causation. Finding correlations in data is something a high school student can do, and is not the realm of a true scientist.
 
No blind faith required. You can check their methods, examine their arithmetic and evaluate their results. Additional teams or universities or organizations can reproduce and expand on those findings. Sort of like how climatologists have been doing for decades now.

But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.
 

zomaha

Member
But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.

You would only be blindly following if you still insisted on the validity of a research paper while the majority of the scientific community in that field has rejected it.
 
But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.

Science and religion are not the same thing, not even close, with science one has the opportunity to check the data, in some cases at least, with religion no such thing is possible.

Besides science is self correcting, if someone decides to blindly follow a piece of scientific information that later turns out to be false, that problem rests squarely on the person doing the following and not the scientific community.

Since any scientist worth a damn would agree that following any idea blindly is foolish.
 

Flatline

Banned
But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.

Are you implying that the entire scientific community conspires to lie to the world?
 

xavi42

Member
The four stumbling blocks to truth according to Roger Bacon, founder of the scientific method.

Reliance on faulty authority

Reliance on popular opinion

Reliance on personal bias or vanity

Reliance on rational argument
 

KHarvey16

Member
But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.

Science regulates itself. Peer review and the scientific method weed out those attempting to push through their own dogma, or even a dogma shared by many. Scientists don't get together and vote on what theories they like best. Either something is good science or it isn't, and bad science(and the conclusions derived from bad science) are recognized and dismissed. If you doubt a result, by all means demonstrate where it went wrong.

There are thousands of papers and decades upon decades of research into global warming. To begin to suggest the current understanding of anthropogenic global warming hinges upon some undermining of the scientific method, or some ideological crusade by scientists, is incredible ignorance.
 

nick nacc

Banned
But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.

It's called a works cited. I can't believe we're arguing this. The few times a bad study gets PUBLISHED, not put the Internet is a big deal and everyone pays. The publication, the scientist, even the future of said study. Take stem cell research for example. We can't do that anymore on human subjects because someone fucked up and it turned out cancerous as shit. Now no review board will grant a dime to human subject testing for stem cells. Because of a fuck up. The system isn't perfect buts it's damn good in my opinion.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Laborers provide work - without which, owners would not be afforded the opportunity to invest capital to appropriate wealth.

Yet we see few (any?) instances of laborers forming collective work units and producing goods in this way without first having their prime motivation satisfied without risk - namely being paid for their work regardless of if the product they are producing is something that can sustainably continue to generate that income.
 
Science regulates itself. Peer review and the scientific method weed out those attempting to push through their own dogma, or even a dogma shared by many. Scientists don't get together and vote on what theories they like best. Either something is good science or it isn't, and bad science(and the conclusions derived from bad science) are recognized and dismissed. If you doubt a result, by all means demonstrate where it went wrong.

There are thousands of papers and decades upon decades of research into global warming. To begin to suggest the current understanding of anthropogenic global warming hinges upon some undermining of the scientific method, or some ideological crusade by scientists, is incredible ignorance.

Don't try and put words in my mouth.

It's a loaded question. If you're not proving it, why should you believe it. Faith?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Are you implying that the entire scientific community conspires to lie to the world?

No, but I think he's implying that people who listen to scientific findings sometimes blindly accept them because they come from a source of authority. Which is true. I guess the distinction is how much weight the authority is given. Since the scientific community is diverse and designed to be self correcting, most consensus' that shake out can be said to have reasonably strong authority.
 

Orayn

Member
Don't try and put words in my mouth.

It's a loaded question. If you're not proving it, why should you believe it. Faith?

Not true. Accepting some scientific finding as true leaves room for that finding to be reinforced, changed, out disproved entirely in light of new evidence. Faith doesn't care about the evidence at all.
 

KHarvey16

Member
Don't try and put words in my mouth.

It's a loaded question. If you're not proving it, why should you believe it. Faith?

No. How many people have to explain it to you? The process eliminates the need to have faith in and trust the source of the information. Once it's been published the community sees it. What isn't caught in peer review is found by others(and usually results in editors being fired). That protects the integrity of the science. The conclusions can then be tested by anyone.

Is this a "I'm not so bad because you're just as bad!" argument or what is your point exactly? Is there a particular conclusion you take issue with?
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16

.... this is the party of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell, Herman Cain, Rick Santorum, and Rick Perry. Which one of those persons isn't at least 3 out of 4 of the things listed?
 

Enron

Banned
.... this is the party of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell, Herman Cain, Rick Santorum, and Rick Perry. Which one of those persons isn't at least 3 out of 4 of the things listed?

..and you've just proven my point!
 
No, but I think he's implying that people who listen to scientific findings sometimes blindly accept them because they come from a source of authority. Which is true. I guess the distinction is how much weight the authority is given. Since the scientific community is diverse and designed to be self correcting, most consensus' that shake out can be said to have reasonably strong authority.

Right, there's no doubt that everybody who accepts science is placing their trust in other humans. We haven't directly observed the experiments and observations reported to us in scientific journals. They are just people's words that convey information. We give their words credence, however, because we understand (1) that they follow the scientific method that requires observation by the experimenter; (2) the methodology is reviewed by other scientists before publication; and (3) the experiments are subject to be repeated by others.

Indeed, as more and more different scientists repeat experiments and obtain the same results, we put more and more credence into the conclusions that particular study reveals. The existence of the scientific method, and the putting into place of measures to help ensure compliance with it, warrant trusting the information conveyed to us in scientific journals. Is it perfect? Of course not. Scientists can be frauds, they can make up observations and results. So it may well be the case (and has been the case) that information conveyed in scientific journals should not have been trusted. But the great thing about science is that these frauds cannot be perpetual. As different experimenters try to replicate results, any fraud (or honest mistakes) get exposed over time. So while we couldn't say that everything posted in a scientific journal is true, we don't need to be able to say that to have increased confidence generally in the information conveyed by scientific journals.

Also, social science studies (like the one in this thread) are subject to replication.
 

prwxv3

Member
.... this is the party of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Christine O'Donnell, Herman Cain, Rick Santorum, and Rick Perry. Which one of those persons isn't at least 3 out of 4 of the things listed?

I don't like Glen Beck at all but he is not part of the Republican party.
 
Not true. Accepting some scientific finding as true leaves room for that finding to be reinforced, changed, out disproved entirely in light of new evidence. Faith doesn't care about the evidence at all.

But faith dictates your acceptance of information without any involvement. You're still just relying on others.

Right, there's no doubt that everybody who accepts science is placing their trust in other humans. We haven't directly observed the experiments and observations reported to us in scientific journals. They are just people's words that convey information. We give their words credence, however, because we understand (1) that they follow the scientific method that requires observation by the experimenter; (2) the methodology is reviewed by other scientists before publication; and (3) the experiments are subject to be repeated by others.

Indeed, as more and more different scientists repeat experiments and obtain the same results, we put more and more credence into the conclusions that particular study reveals. The existence of the scientific method, and the putting into place of measures to help ensure compliance with it, warrant trusting the information conveyed to us in scientific journals. Is it perfect? Of course not. Scientists can be frauds, they can make up observations and results. So it may well be the case (and has been the case) that information conveyed in scientific journals should not have been trusted. But the great thing about science is that these frauds cannot be perpetual. As different experimenters try to replicate results, any fraud (or honest mistakes) get exposed over time. So while we couldn't say that everything posted in a scientific journal is true, we don't need to be able to say that to have increased confidence generally in the information conveyed by scientific journals.

Also, social science studies (like the one in this thread) are subject to replication.
This is a good response.

My original post
I wonder when having blind faith in scientific reports you had no involvement in will be just as dangerous as following books about omniscient beings.
is about when. How long till the system falters?
 
From Wikipedia

Mooney was born in Mesa, Arizona, and grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. He has an English Major from Yale University in 1999...

Yep, this explains a lot.


There's no science here. I'm not even sure that a sociological approach to this question makes much sense given there are so many confounding factors. There have been a few neurological studies but there's little evidence to support the claims in this article.

Indeed, an English major parroting political talking points is not what I consider rigorous scientific analysis.


I wonder when having blind faith in scientific reports you had no involvement in will be just as dangerous as following books about omniscient beings.

To me, anyone who uses the term "science proves this!" isn't much of a scientist at all. "Science" is just a name with a plethora sub-categories. Within those sub-categories are actual theories, data, and equations which may or not may not aid in explaining the universe that we all live in. If you don't understand the data and equations of a scientific theory, then you simply don't fully understand the scientific theory and should not be claiming such a theory is "100% factual."
 
My original post
is about when. How long till the system falters?

Until we collectively reject empiricism as a basis for acquiring knowledge. The system itself is just a method for learning based on a philosophical assumption that there is an external world that accords with our perceptions, i.e., a method for learning the knowledge that is available to us from observation, with added checks like falsifiability, repeatability, and peer review.
 

KHarvey16

Member
But faith dictates your acceptance of information without any involvement. You're still just relying on others.


This is a good response.

My original post
is about when. How long till the system falters?

Perhaps you could just share with us the opinion you're trying so hard to justify preemptively.
 

Kosmo

Banned
Until we collectively reject empiricism as a basis for acquiring knowledge. The system itself is just a method for learning based on a philosophical assumption that there is an external world that accords with our perceptions, i.e., a method for learning the knowledge that is available to us from observation, with added checks like falsifiability, repeatability, and peer review.

Please join this thread: http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=463562&page=6

I really must know.
 
It isn't about conservative philosphy, religion, liberal philosophy, or anything of the sort. Its about the political agendas of corporations and more importantly, the clash of politics between different and opposing corporate interests. We're being played for fools by both sides.
 

Kapura

Banned
It isn't about conservative philosphy, religion, liberal philosophy, or anything of the sort. Its about the political agendas of corporations and more importantly, the clash of politics between different and opposing corporate interests. We're being played for fools by both sides.

funniest post in this thread so far. Do you have sources, or will that give away your local anarchist group's talking points?
 
Perhaps you could just share with us the opinion you're trying so hard to justify preemptively.

cK9Na.png
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Also, don't bring Hitler into this. He was religious, much of his appeal was religious, his followers were religious.

Um, Hitler was a far left radical (Nazi = National Socialist Party), who was an atheist and also had established universal healthcare in Germany during his reign.

Nice try, though.
 
Until we collectively reject empiricism as a basis for acquiring knowledge. The system itself is just a method for learning based on a philosophical assumption that there is an external world that accords with our perceptions, i.e., a method for learning the knowledge that is available to us from observation, with added checks like falsifiability, repeatability, and peer review.


Awww, someone beat me to the intellectual modesty argument against science. Yup, science is just as much about faith as is religion. A different kind of faith, but faith none-the-less.
 
We're all in denial of something - political affiliation is immaterial.

That said, Republicans seem eerily susceptible to this. As do Democrats of equal partisan zeal. This goes hand-in-hand with a person's desire to put on blinders and limit themselves to a "my side good, your side bad" mentality.
 

Angry Fork

Member
But do you?

The question isn't about being able to check the scientific procedures, it's about blindly following.

It's not like multiple people have never spread the same word before. There are multiple voices for religion, after all.

The problem is because science is based on such vast evidence, much of it is extremely complex, to the point where only experts in the field would actually be able to check everything to make sure it's true.

I can understand a general theory for the origin of the universe, but I am absolutely clueless when it comes to the actual math and formulas. Am I really supposed to become an astrophysicist or cosmologist JUST so I can find out if the theories aren't some huge conspiracy against me? Am I supposed to do the same for evolutionary biology, chemistry, human anatomy etc.? I can know general information about all of these but it's silly to suggest everyone is going on blind faith so science = religion.

If we could all understand every possible theory and equation many of us would indeed want to check it out to see if it's correct but we don't because not everyone is a polymath. Religion isn't based on evidence at all, instead the complete opposite. People 'blindly' believe what scientists say because we know scientists (most at least, those without another agenda) are strictly looking for the truth and have no reason to try to con people. Religious people claim to look for the truth too but they claim this truth is in scripture and that it's all you need to know (without any attempt to back up these claims).

Besides science articles explain what they did, how they did it etc. when pertaining to a particular breakthrough. If you wanted to you could look up definitions and articles for each concept and check whether they're real or not. It would take a lot of work but you can find sources and evidence. You can't do any of this with religion. I don't even know why I have to explain all of this it just seems obvious.
 
Please elaborate.

To further explain the post I was quoting;

To grant advocates of science at least some leeway; scientists approach the creation of knowledge in a different way than theists. They take their experiences based on indepth methodology and formulate a workable theory which is subject to change over a period of time based on progress in research methodology and tools available to scientists.

In contrast, theists primarily rely on evidence largely personal in nature and not subject to the same kind of rigorous internal checks as scientists. The system isn't open to advancement in methodology.

Where the two are the same is their reliance on a fundamental theory of knowledge which relies on the validity of the external senses, the belief in an external world independent from their own perceptions. In the absence of an objective, extraneous existence science is whittled down to a self-verifying system with no basis to overcome the religious.

A simple thought experiment to elaborate;

A blind, deaf man sits on the side of the road. Two others approach from different directions. As these three men meet an earth shattering event occurs. The blind and deaf man feels intense heat and intense vibrations.

One man, an ardent scientist, proclaims it do be a quake. This man is a seismologist who had seen the rictor scales vibrating. He received word from other stations around the world verifying this as an earth quake. He also observes plumes of smoke and observes the rock cleavage, finding out he is on a fault line. He writes all this out on brail and gives it to the blind, deaf man.

The other man is a pious man. He looks across the horizon and sees rays of dark light shooting up from the ground. A demon appears on the horizon, taunting the pious man. A magical pony trots by telling the pious man, "Run sir, it is Lucifer!" This pious man had seen the pony on numerous prior occasions, always accompanied by foreboding and the appearance of the demon. He writes all this out on brail and gives it to the blind, deaf man.

Now this man must decide, without any personal verifying faculties, who is correct. This man is the tabula rasa. How does he decide? Each man has their own internal verifying system of an inductive and deductive nature. Each has supporting evidence of different kinds and equal normality or consistency.

It is hard, but one must put themselves in the shoes of the blind, deaf man to remove the bias of what they perceive. How are they to distinguish themselves from who they think is the crazed beggard?
 

Kapura

Banned
To further explain the post I was quoting;

To grant advocates of science at least some leeway; scientists approach the creation of knowledge in a different way than theists. They take their experiences based on indepth methodology and formulate a workable theory which is subject to change over a period of time based on progress in research methodology and tools available to scientists.

In contrast, theists primarily rely on evidence largely personal in nature and not subject to the same kind of rigorous internal checks as scientists. The system isn't open to advancement in methodology.

Where the two are the same is their reliance on a fundamental theory of knowledge which relies on the validity of the external senses, the belief in an external world independent from their own perceptions. In the absence of an objective, extraneous existence science is whittled down to a self-verifying system with no basis to overcome the religious.

A simple thought experiment to elaborate;

A blind, deaf man sits on the side of the road. Two others approach from different directions. As these three men meet an earth shattering event occurs. The blind and deaf man feels intense heat and intense vibrations.

One man, an ardent scientists, proclaims it do be a quake. This man is a seismologist who had seen the rictor scales vibrating. He received word from other stations around the world verifying this as an earth quake. He also observes plumes of smoke and observes the rock cleavage, finding out he is on a fault line. He writes all this out on brail and gives it to the blind, deaf man.

The other man is a pious man. He looks across the horizon and sees rays of dark light shooting up from the ground. A demon appears on the horizon, taunting the pious man. A magical pony trots by telling the pious man, "Run sir, it is Lucifer!" This pious man had seen the pony on numerous prior occasions, always accompanied by foreboding and the appearance of the demon. He writes all this out on brail and gives it to the blind, deaf man.

Now this man must decided, without any personal verifying faculties, who is correct. This man is the tabula rasa. How does he decide? Each man has their own internal verifying system of an inductive and deductive nature. Each has supporting evidence of different kinds and equal normality or consistency.

It is hard, but one must put themselves in the shoes of the blind, deaf man to remove the bias of what they perceive. How are they to distinguish themselves from who they think is the crazed beggard?

How is it that the seismologist does not also see the demon? This is a poor thought experiment. Two competent humans experiencing the same event should have information from their senses, regardless of how they are interpreted. Why can the pious man not see the data, and why can the scientist not see the devil?
 

zomaha

Member
To further explain the post I was quoting;

To grant advocates of science at least some leeway; scientists approach the creation of knowledge in a different way than theists. They take their experiences based on indepth methodology and formulate a workable theory which is subject to change over a period of time based on progress in research methodology and tools available to scientists.

In contrast, theists primarily rely on evidence largely personal in nature and not subject to the same kind of rigorous internal checks as scientists. The system isn't open to advancement in methodology.

Where the two are the same is their reliance on a fundamental theory of knowledge which relies on the validity of the external senses, the belief in an external world independent from their own perceptions. In the absence of an objective, extraneous existence science is whittled down to a self-verifying system with no basis to overcome the religious.

A simple thought experiment to elaborate;

A blind, deaf man sits on the side of the road. Two others approach from different directions. As these three men meet an earth shattering event occurs. The blind and deaf man feels intense heat and intense vibrations.

One man, an ardent scientists, proclaims it do be a quake. This man is a seismologist who had seen the rictor scales vibrating. He received word from other stations around the world verifying this as an earth quake. He also observes plumes of smoke and observes the rock cleavage, finding out he is on a fault line. He writes all this out on brail and gives it to the blind, deaf man.

The other man is a pious man. He looks across the horizon and sees rays of dark light shooting up from the ground. A demon appears on the horizon, taunting the pious man. A magical pony trots by telling the pious man, "Run sir, it is Lucifer!" This pious man had seen the pony on numerous prior occasions, always accompanied by foreboding and the appearance of the demon. He writes all this out on brail and gives it to the blind, deaf man.

Now this man must decide, without any personal verifying faculties, who is correct. This man is the tabula rasa. How does he decide? Each man has their own internal verifying system of an inductive and deductive nature. Each has supporting evidence of different kinds and equal normality or consistency.

It is hard, but one must put themselves in the shoes of the blind, deaf man to remove the bias of what they perceive. How are they to distinguish themselves from who they think is the crazed beggard?

I...I don't even...
 

Orayn

Member
To further explain the post I was quoting;

To grant advocates of science at least some leeway; scientists approach the creation of knowledge in a different way than theists. They take their experiences based on indepth methodology and formulate a workable theory which is subject to change over a period of time based on progress in research methodology and tools available to scientists.

That's a pretty fucking huge difference, wouldn't you say?

In contrast, theists primarily rely on evidence largely personal in nature and not subject to the same kind of rigorous internal checks as scientists. The system isn't open to advancement in methodology.

Sounds like we're in agreement so far. What's the catch..?

Where the two are the same is their reliance on a fundamental theory of knowledge which relies on the validity of the external senses, the belief in an external world independent from their own perceptions. In the absence of an objective, extraneous existence science is whittled down to a self-verifying system with no basis to overcome the religious.

Science is verified by the methods you mentioned, and the fact that it's done as repetitively and consistently as humanly possible. Calling science reliant upon faith because it relies on the existence of an external, objective reality isn't really a weakness at all, since it would be impossible to get anything done otherwise.

other stuff

With most fields of scientific study, we are not talking about anything remotely resembling the allegory of the cave.
 
Enron: That's the GOP right now. Goldwater Republicans are what we call blue dog democrats

This is the main problem with the article. "Conservatives" and "liberals" are not represented by the current Republican and Democrat parties. Modern democrats are right of center. Modern Republicans are right wing extremists.
 
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