GamerMax73
Member
It's pretty popular down south - oh, er, I see what you did there.
The UK votes to leave the European Union |OUT2| Mayday, Mayday, I've lost an ARM
- Thread starter Hasney
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I know that Cameron refused to pull the trigger under his watch to fuck over whoever takes over his spot. Which, at this point, seems most likely to either be that Boris Johnson fellow or maybe Theresa May. How would such a small percentage of the population be allowed to vote by October?
As for the inevitability of the Brexit, damn. I am terribly sorry for all of my UK friends, and their futures being turned into ash before their eyes. I was hoping that maybe the EU would allow the UK to have some self-saving measure to stay in, but I guess the long-standing animosity didn't make them too encouraged to lend a life line. Even with a trade deal, the UK would have to still accept "freedom of movement," which would make the whole election and campaign worthless. Unbelievable that the UK of all nations could act in such an irrational fashion. It is usually us Americans always being mocked.
I can't blame the incoming PM. Who would want to be in charge over the dissolution of the United Kingdom? One final move from the incompetent Cameron that likely ended up being one of the few clever moves he has done. He can make sure none of his opponents or successors are able to taste victory, but simply have defeat.
No matter what choice, it is political suicide. Those who voted in favor of the referendum will forever be tarnished.
Because the Tory party thinks only their party should be allowed to elect the Prime Minister if it is their Prime Minister leaving. They see it as purely internal business.
Lol. You're acting as if immigrants (whatever generation) can't be dumb and/or racist and thus vote against their own interests just to spite some other group of people or with the ignorant thought of making their lives better when dem muzzlamz/Polish/niggahz stop coming to UK.Stallion Dan said:
And there are not "Plenty of good reasons to vote leave", at least not ones that come anywhere near of trumping all the positives of staying. All of it is just stupidity (350m more for healthcare, shutting off UK from immigration, Brussels makes up ALL the laws and UK can't do anything about it but NAO UK IZ BACK IN CONTROLZZZZZ) & idiotic fear-mongering (terrorists *coughmuslimscough* will destroy UK, UK will be dragged into United States of Europe against their will at any given moment). Maybe you'll be able to make better trade deals with Australia and pick & choose to have a few more talented Indians come to UK instead of dem evil social welfare abusing terrorists, but that's a single fucking country and a single fucking deal & a relatively small group of people vs. all the HUGE, costly & damaging economic effects all across Europe (that will spread elsewhere) & all the lives destroyed/made more difficult by this decision.
No, there are not "plenty of good reasons" to vote leave, not when compared to all that it will cost not only to UK, but to other countries as well.
It is. They're under no obligation to call a general election, they still have another 4 years in power.
Like a tangy metal-y flavour. It sounds horrible but it's pretty good. I still prefer coke despite irn bru being our national drink.
Wait, they can do that? Wouldn't that technically then be a party election and not a general election? Unless I misunderstand British politics even more than I do now. If it is a regular election, then...
True but do you not recall a guy named David Cameron (and pretty much the entire party) shouting at brown to call an election because it was undemocratic?
GamerMax73
Member
Actually one of the better top-level arguments, good post. I still disagree mind.
Just wanted to pick up on this point. I too believe in small government, which is why I voted remain. In my view handing more powers to a central Westminster is the very definition of big government. I'll say again, devolve power to the level where decision have the best impact for the people - that includes up to EU level as well as down to regional/county/district levels.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
I think after the talks a joint statement from the EU and UK
Will be issued along the lines of :
sad we are leaving respect it is a tough choice allies, partners although We have had some differences . Our core values are the same.
Assurance :
Article 50 is not ready to be triggered until we can get a plan mapped out and avdeal on the table that benefits all involved. But rest assured a deal is coming
In conclusion .business as usual Trade links and EU rights still in place .
In the interim the EU will be working closely with the UK to give all the help it can you cameron and the next priminister
The EU will want to calm fears and get the markets up an running stop the implosion.
We will then be Getting ready to trigger article 50 while still being in the EU. Works on the exit plan can then take a while buying everyone some time to recover.
A Norway deal can he strongly hinted at throughout
Both sides save face .
UK Gov spin it as "we are going to leave the EU but on our terms. From the strongest possible position. Art 50 will not be triggered Until we calm market fears , build bridges , get our house in order, map out a sufficient exit strategy and negotiate the best possible deal for the UK, reiterate democracy talk. Calm tensions in all areas. Stanp down on the racist acts. But for now we are open for business as usual"
Tories all rally round this answer .
This buys all time. Brexit can be stalled until we are fully ready but by golly it's coming .
Behind Scenes EU offer Norway deal.they will then Create Paris /Frankfurt as chief banking and finance areas. London and Edinburgh report to them. Allowing remain camp access to free market and movement
UK makes positive agreement.
throughout brexit process Norway deal spun as a great deal and victory for UK with access to free market . Immigration part downplayed . Will take time to set up exit and transition, in essence we delay for as long as possible but we are leaving . Victory Britain sovereignty. Democracy blah blaH.
Will be issued along the lines of :
sad we are leaving respect it is a tough choice allies, partners although We have had some differences . Our core values are the same.
Assurance :
Article 50 is not ready to be triggered until we can get a plan mapped out and avdeal on the table that benefits all involved. But rest assured a deal is coming
In conclusion .business as usual Trade links and EU rights still in place .
In the interim the EU will be working closely with the UK to give all the help it can you cameron and the next priminister
The EU will want to calm fears and get the markets up an running stop the implosion.
We will then be Getting ready to trigger article 50 while still being in the EU. Works on the exit plan can then take a while buying everyone some time to recover.
A Norway deal can he strongly hinted at throughout
Both sides save face .
UK Gov spin it as "we are going to leave the EU but on our terms. From the strongest possible position. Art 50 will not be triggered Until we calm market fears , build bridges , get our house in order, map out a sufficient exit strategy and negotiate the best possible deal for the UK, reiterate democracy talk. Calm tensions in all areas. Stanp down on the racist acts. But for now we are open for business as usual"
Tories all rally round this answer .
This buys all time. Brexit can be stalled until we are fully ready but by golly it's coming .
Behind Scenes EU offer Norway deal.they will then Create Paris /Frankfurt as chief banking and finance areas. London and Edinburgh report to them. Allowing remain camp access to free market and movement
UK makes positive agreement.
throughout brexit process Norway deal spun as a great deal and victory for UK with access to free market . Immigration part downplayed . Will take time to set up exit and transition, in essence we delay for as long as possible but we are leaving . Victory Britain sovereignty. Democracy blah blaH.
We vote for local MPs not for the prime minister. Think of it like your senate.Wait, they can do that? Wouldn't that technically then be a party election and not a general election? Unless I misunderstand British politics even more than I do now. If it is a regular election, then...
They clearly can. The question is if they should considering their remarks on the unelected European Union and on their predecessor.
It is a party election that will shape the future of the country. If the government falls by losing its head, a snap general election should be the only option.
Oh, I understand that. Its the basic idea of a parliamentary system. You elect MPs of a party, and they elect the person that becomes the Prime Minister. That's fine. I'm confused that in the midst of this crisis, they can simply just have a party election. If that is what I am getting.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
Where are we on the Fuckometer this morning?
SporeCrawler
Member
Only that everybody already made it clear that EU will not negotiate before Art. 50 is troggered
Same place as yesterday.
Correct.
Yeah it's weird technically the leader of the tories whoever it ends up being doesn't need to end up being PM. But because they have a majority it will be.
GamerMax73
Member
I'd say they'd be savaged at the ballot box in 2020. But actually, once Scotland's gone, post Brexit Britain will be a one party state - maybe that's been their plan all along? 1984.
Formally negotiate. I think it's safe to say none of us will want to pay the phone bill from the next few months. There is nothing the EU can do to stop independent countries talking to each other it just can't be done in council and if they do try to stop informal talks then all it would do is prove to many that leaving such an organisation is for the best.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Behind the scenes I bet they have talked a deal for the future and made it clear they know uk is not ready and unable to leave as it stands. Our saving grace and it is horrible , if we go down it could create so much turmoil.
Plus 48% wanting to stay the EU won't forget that or let us perish.
If only 2% wanted to stay in sure the brexit would be well under way as we would have had a plan and deal in place plus thevmeans to execute it properly .
UK has backed itself into a corner they clearly don't want to leave quickly Neither does EU want us to yet.
GamerMax73
Member
Same as yesterday - the ship's sinking and the life jackets were replaced with Jaffa Cakes.
Small government is an impossibility these days, every last square inch of the (civilized) world is too connected nowadays for small governments to be anything but a delusional dream. There need to be different levels & types of governance and as you pointed out that includes EU (& beyond) level decision making.
And labour didn't therefore there are both rules and precedent.
And it's not like labour could demand a GE at the moment, they have pulled off the astonishing trick of being more leaderless then the Tory's despite still actually having a leader.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
A man cannot live on Jaffa Cakes alone -- I've tried.
I will say one thing, all this 'Leave should have had a plan,' stuff is rubbish.
The more I think about it, the more the responsibility rested with the Government. Doesn't mean pro-Remain politicians needed to get deeply involved in it, but a small team of civil servants should have been working on it from the referendum announcement. There's absolutely no consitutional mechanism for 'Leave' taking over the Government just because they won the referendum, so responsibility for that side of this shit show rests with Cameron too.
The more I think about it, the more the responsibility rested with the Government. Doesn't mean pro-Remain politicians needed to get deeply involved in it, but a small team of civil servants should have been working on it from the referendum announcement. There's absolutely no consitutional mechanism for 'Leave' taking over the Government just because they won the referendum, so responsibility for that side of this shit show rests with Cameron too.
There is nothing those independent countries can do, as the negotiations are headed through the European Union itself and not the countries. It is also clear that the major countries the United Kingdom wants to deal with have denied informal negotiations.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Agreed.
Who ever is in charge of the government are the ones in charge not the leave campaign. This should be made clear otherwise the racists will feel they can do what they like. Crack down on them now HAM
Hope after all the dust settles the UK Gov goes after Ukip and the papers.
Wouldn't having a party election later just be a waste of time? Especially if there is a major call for snap election, before the next mandated election in 2020? It just seems more sensible to elect a Tory leader now, and then have a snap election sometime closer to September or whenever Cameron mandated elections to occur.
Couldn't the EU formally suspend the United Kingdom from the organization if it tries to drag its feet? Something about a "nuclear option." I don't think it would prove to anyone outside the far-right that it reinforces their notion that leaving was best. Then again, these people are hell bent on leaving the organization, regardless of the consequences.
I thought our country having an Electoral College was ridiculous. Jesus...
Absolutely, and MJ denied fiddling children, OJ denied killing someone and Trump denied he was a horrific racist.
There will be much talking, lot's of 'hypothetically how would your government feel about this type of proposal?'.
anonymous_abc
Member
I agree it's strange for the civil service to not have worked on this in some capacity. It is only once side. Leave is at least as much to blame for promising pies in the sky without even the slightest idea of how that might be realistically achievable.
There were rules and precedent before labour. Loooooong before 07 (Major and tons before him).
It's the principle, plus I just love pointing out tory cunts hypocrisy.
They have negotiated deals with Cameron before. There is no point in it anymore now.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Letting the UK leave at this stage and state it is in would cause more fallout. Markers would tank further . Civil unrest the UK divided. On verge of implosion no longer united.
The EU gain so much by fixing this.
The UK has fucked itself by listening to the wrong voices. Choose to leave out of ignorance.
EU salvsging it all. Will greatly boost their standing in the world
The EU gain so much by fixing this.
The UK has fucked itself by listening to the wrong voices. Choose to leave out of ignorance.
EU salvsging it all. Will greatly boost their standing in the world
Aaronology
Member
Hm?
Merkel rejects informal Brexit talks before official UK application to leave
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-germany-idUKKCN0ZD12O
'No notification no negotiation' EU boss Juncker BANS officials from talking to Britain
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/684044/Brexit-EU-boss-Jean-Claude-Juncker-Britain-Article-50-Nigel-Farage-EU-referendum-Ukip
European leaders rule out informal Brexit talks before article 50 is triggered
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/europe-leaders-crunch-talks-brexit-fallout
anonymous_abc
Member
Oh yes that will go down well with 52% of voters.
"The EU is ignoring our will and shackling us to the continent..."
The character JUST said this lmao.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
There is.
If most leavers arguments are you push people around you set the rules etc. In a messed up way just ignoring us and letting us tank and taking others down on the way would show it.
Other far right parties would be up in arms and wanting out. Discourse will spread and over the next 20 years more will leave and work with the leavers.
The EU will crumble.
.from a business standpoint the EU want to sort this out the best possible way to show we don't lead by fear or lush people around.
To quell unrest within the EU I am sure they will implement systems to allow nations better deals
The UK will be associated with the EU but it will no longer have a say.
pacificrex
Banned
As a non-European, I'm curious about something. Why are so many people in the EU in love with this idea of one big superstate? How does that embrace diversity or sovereignty? Seems logical to me that forming a big superstate and the consequences of that in such a culturally diverse part of the globe would be the eventual elimination of diversity. Why do some countries want to part with their identity? It all seems so twisted. Why wouldn't you all be better off being your own nations, with your own currency, and your own laws? Is the goal to just become the most powerful kid on the block? You'd probably all have formal alliances anyway in military situations.
A large and mostly impossible question but still.
A large and mostly impossible question but still.
Aaronology
Member
Is there a reason you're insisting this given everything that happened today? It doesn't seem to be based on anything at all.
read: recent history. notably 1914
In context of Farage trolling the very people we need to make deals with yesterday?
UK to EU
jufonuk
not tag worthy
No it will be done to appease both sides. Of the voters.
I bet a lot of that 52% are wishing not to leave like this or at all as shit is hitting the fan.
The actual hardcore leavers would be less than the 52%, dont forget it would split the UK up causing more headaches abs trouble
Maybe the deal worked out before banked on this we stay in the EU fully but retain more autonomy .
Merkel is smart I am guessing it will be a deal to not tank us further or divide the UK.
We do makeup nearly 20% of trade and hold a lot of power in the banking sector.
I still see a Paris/frankfurt banking sector as the twin power houses and London and Edinburgh as the aligned traders in the UK.
Immediately they need to calm the markets stop anymore slides into the Uk tearing itself apart and force the UK to confront it's issues. They will grant more time to formulate a brexit. Negotiate trade deals abs movement
What would happen if it was 50/50 vote ?
Alx
Member
There's no way EU can force a solution though, not when the whole issue with Euroskeptics is sovereignty, and the country voted as it did.
EU is mostly counting on UK coming back pleading on its knees for a free market deal similar to the statu quo (but with loss of many privileges, and certainly nothing that the Leave camp wanted), so that EU can look benevolent but also can say to other sceptics "see ? they thought they wanted to leave but reality caught up".
Not that many people are "in love with this idea of superstate" actually. It's a very divisive idea, even among pro-EU politicians.
There is a will of unity and growing importance of Europe, maybe even more to be relevant politically and economically against the rest of the world, than for peace and stability within Europe (although the latter is certainly a major benefit, but most people will forget our tendency to get at each other's throat after so many decades of peace).
The main reason some people are favorable to a federal model is more practical than ideological : it becomes less and less realistic to have 27/28 countries discussing and bickering every time a new crisis arises or a major decision has to be taken.
One of EU's aims is to protect that diversity & all those different cultures, even the minority ones like the Northern Saami people. We are just in this shit together. All kinds of phenomena, problems & opportunities cross over borders & are better tackled together instead of everyone just doing whatever the hell they want. As such, a big union like EU is better equipped to handle a lot of those things than Europe as completely separate countries. Plenty of things can still be left at a more local level.
anonymous_abc
Member
Actually it's very misguided and uninformed.
No institution in Europe has done more for diversity and identity protection than the EU.
It funds to no small part all manner of local minorities so help them keep their traditions and customs alive. Also there is strict regional protection for regional produce, e.g. Bordeaux Wine is only allowed to be labelled as such if it actually comes from Bordeaux.
Apart from that the fact that regional dialects and identities are dying out is just the natural course of history without the EU the process would just be significantly sped up!
If the regional minorities in the UK hope for more funding and better protection from Westminster my best guess is they will be disappointed.
TatteredHat
Member
Well, the short answer is that the world will move towards globalization with or without us, the comparatively small individual countries of Europe would get crushed by economic blocs like the US, China and Russia. We´d have no trading leverage on our own at all.
Having said that, the EU is not forcing any country to integrate against their will, and it has done a lot to protect regional produce.
I think sceptics will just see the impossible situation the UK is in. The question to the electorate was 'Leave' but the way the system is, it is impossible to Leave without effectively pressing a reset button on the country that would destroy it.
I dislike the EU but voted Remain for this reason. Even if our UK leads were godtier it would still be a mammoth task. As is, its out of the question. The charade needs to be called off.
First of all, it's not a one big superstate, it was supposed to become, in a probably distant future, if it's even possible anymore, something like the United States of Europe.
And why would the Unity kill the diversity? Nobody is destroying their identity with this. We work together, no matter what kinda of language we speak, German, English (not so much anymore), French etc. for a better future. It's so nice going where you want without have to show your passport everywhere, wait on the boarders for hrs and hrs. To live where you want, work where you want, it's just better for everyone.
pacificrex
Banned
Really? This passive aggressiveness means nothing to me. Implying that I'm not educated on huge world events won't exactly spark a meaningful discussion.
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