The Wife of an EA Employee Speaks Out
- Thread starter FortNinety
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Christoff Yurievich
Member
it's the American Way!
Yeah, that happens all of the time in the game industry. There are many a times you can expect to work 100 hour weeks. Shitty development practices have a lot to do with why this happens, but in EA's case (Specifically the Tiburon team) I think it's because they have to push a football game out each year at the same time with no exceptions or schedule slipping.
The Bookerman
Member
Can't say workin for Ubi's walk in the park also.
The Public expects so much....
Like countless sequels year after year.
The Public expects so much....
Like countless sequels year after year.
Mr_Furious
Member
Such is the way of PD in general
john2kx said:
I asked Dave Z once about how many hours a week he put into the first ESPN NFL Football. He said it was 80 or so most weeks, because he was taking it easy that year. On 2K3 he spent up around 120 hours a week working, sleeping at the office most of the time.
Another funny one was when I went to tour Polyphony Digital over in Japan. This was in the fall of 2003, more than a year before GT4 shipped, and it still seemed as if the entire team was pretty much permanently camped out at the office.
Making games is hard. This business pretty much runs on the notion that the people in it should somehow be grateful for the opportunity, and thus deliver above and beyond the call of an ordinary paycheck. The fact that most developers get profit participation in their games helps, but I do wonder whether the current model can sustain itself.
DFS.
The Bookerman
Member
I'm already workin 50-60 hours a week and I find it hard to have a life.
Edit: I'm only in QA by the way
.
Edit: I'm only in QA by the way
.Every EA team is different and the crunch time is far more dependent on the EPs and DDs than the Probst and crew. If there's someone to blame then it's the damn EP who doesn't do their job right and screws over both the dev team AND the higher-ups looking to release the game on time. When I was there I had the fortune of working with a really great group of people and since I was still a newbie I had to work extra hard to pull up the slack. The thing is, when I stayed late (about 2 times in 3 months, so nothing crazy) the next day all the people all my team would be like "What the hell is wrong with you?" and actually make me feel guilty about staying late.
Some teams just get stuck with a crappy manager, and that's the way EVERY job is. I think the average EA crunch-time is similar to the industry average and this person just got stuck with a REALLY bad manager. Now, I'm not saying this justifies EA's position. I think there's a SUPREME lack of competent managers in the industry and a severe lack of people that know how to make a good game, know how to make it on time and below cost, and know how to treat their employees well. It's definitely true that these practises are applicable to software in ALL industries, so God willing as time goes on people will understand how software development works and plan and manage well and be able to hit deadlines without killing their team.
Some teams just get stuck with a crappy manager, and that's the way EVERY job is. I think the average EA crunch-time is similar to the industry average and this person just got stuck with a REALLY bad manager. Now, I'm not saying this justifies EA's position. I think there's a SUPREME lack of competent managers in the industry and a severe lack of people that know how to make a good game, know how to make it on time and below cost, and know how to treat their employees well. It's definitely true that these practises are applicable to software in ALL industries, so God willing as time goes on people will understand how software development works and plan and manage well and be able to hit deadlines without killing their team.
BigGreenMat
Member
The thing is if you are exempt then you should be able to take as much sick leave and such as you are allowed. Really it isn't exactly exploitation, but it isn't right either. What they are trying to do is use that exempt status to gain advantage. Hell I would demand to be paid by the hour.
captmcblack
Member
The Bookerman said:I'm already workin 50-60 hours a week and I find it hard to have a life.
Edit: I'm only in QA by the way
Same here.
If a lowly QA grunt like me could put in 60 hour weeks just bug-hunting, I shudder to think what a devmonkey could put in...
element
Member
crunch is taking its toll on my relationship and health. it isn't easy working 7 days a week, doing 10 hour days. My girlfriend hates it, especially since we don't live together.
During the xbox launch, I was doing 100+ hour weeks. I had two 'days' off during a six week stretch, and in those two days you are mostly doing things you need to get done, such as laundry and buying food.
Making games isn't easy at all.
During the xbox launch, I was doing 100+ hour weeks. I had two 'days' off during a six week stretch, and in those two days you are mostly doing things you need to get done, such as laundry and buying food.
Making games isn't easy at all.
Crazymoogle
Member
captmcblack said:
50-60 can be just as brutal in the long term. Once you burn out, you burn out, and dialing back the hours just doesn't really help. If you're crazy, you can recover from that sort of thing in a short period of time (weeks) but otherwise you basically would be making a career change.
80+ is...well...surreal. I've worked some crazy crunches (especially pre-E3) but pulling an 80 hour week (which usually would involve high frustration level stuff) is basically when you need to get a cot in your workspace and consider having somebody else hold your car keys.
element
Member
i always told my mom that I'd probably be burnt out by the age of 25, yet i keep going back and I turn 26 soon.
scheduling is really important these days. I remember when you could just 'plan' and get by, but it is so much more difficult with so many departments and possible publisher requests/changes, and possible outsourcing.
making games is difficult.
scheduling is really important these days. I remember when you could just 'plan' and get by, but it is so much more difficult with so many departments and possible publisher requests/changes, and possible outsourcing.
making games is difficult.
When I started working at EAC QA in 1995, I had a live-in girlfriend. When I left 3 years later, that relationship had been blown out in large part due to the insane hours our department dealt with on a regular basis. 12-14 hour work days for 2 months at a time was the norm, not the exception, and piss-poor planning meant that APs and producers would be calling for tons of people to QA a build at 3AM, without taking into account the nature of what was being tested - going over season mode takes time, fellas, and no matter how many people you throw at it, the time involved does not change.
Better planning and preproduction makes a HUGE difference in crunch hours towards the end of the development cycle, but there's no real impetus for EA to change because there's always a fresh batch of n00bs who are all too happy to jump in and start coding when the current batch gets fed up and/or burnt out. And the cycle begins anew.
Great training ground for software development...but get in and get out ASAP so you can somewhere and start making real money at decent hours. That's the common refrain you'll hear from ex-EA employees everywhere, and it's the truth.
Better planning and preproduction makes a HUGE difference in crunch hours towards the end of the development cycle, but there's no real impetus for EA to change because there's always a fresh batch of n00bs who are all too happy to jump in and start coding when the current batch gets fed up and/or burnt out. And the cycle begins anew.
Great training ground for software development...but get in and get out ASAP so you can somewhere and start making real money at decent hours. That's the common refrain you'll hear from ex-EA employees everywhere, and it's the truth.
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
I don't know about you guys but working 75-100 hours a week (+travel) is relatively commonplace for me. I know my body won't be able to last a long time on this kind of a schedule, but I also know if I can get away with it for 4-5 years I'll be able to write my own ticket afterwards.
I guess it is a personal choice everyone has to make. There are plenty of jobs out there that give more work/life balance. People should do what works for them.
I guess it is a personal choice everyone has to make. There are plenty of jobs out there that give more work/life balance. People should do what works for them.
i don't understand the guys i know who are itching to get out of undergrad to hit the game dev trenches. pay is bad, hours are terrible, and at most companies the problems you're solving are trivial, just tedious. i'm not saying games aren't the most interesting class of software (i think they are to a large extent), but the industry right now just seems to be a hellhole.
i'm sure there are other GAF members who are in it now and can corroborate.
i'm sure there are other GAF members who are in it now and can corroborate.
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
Well the same question should be directed to anyone who joins Investment Banking or Management Consulting firms. Why put up with that kind of crap? The reason is entirely because you get a fast-tracked experience in those first few years, and the level of stress tolerance you develop will help you land jobs anywhere else.
tehrik-e-insaaf said:
You'll probably make a hell of a lot more money in those fields compared to game development, for starters...
It's also entirely possible to suffer through 5-6 years of badly managed projects and not be able to write your own ticket afterwards. Independent developers are having a rough time of it now - so starting your own company is not a guaranteed thing.
tehrik-e-insaaf
Member
Well I'm not saying that everyone who goes into game development will end up starting their own company. But the same can be said for I-Bankers and Consultants. You are only going to stay as long as the quality of your work is high. Part of this means luck in getting good engagement managers and having a supportive partnership behind you. But if you are successful, you are going to make it big.
I think the reasoning is similar to people who wanna work BIGDEV for the early part of their career. The chance to make it big is there, and that attracts people.
BTW... Most I-Banks and Consulting firms pay about 45k-50k for fresh undergrads. I wouldn't call that "a heck of a lot more money" especially considering the big money doesn't start until after you come back with an MBA and manage to stick it out a few more years amid intense competition.
I think the reasoning is similar to people who wanna work BIGDEV for the early part of their career. The chance to make it big is there, and that attracts people.
BTW... Most I-Banks and Consulting firms pay about 45k-50k for fresh undergrads. I wouldn't call that "a heck of a lot more money" especially considering the big money doesn't start until after you come back with an MBA and manage to stick it out a few more years amid intense competition.
Fortunately enough for me by the time I finish University (2006 God willing) I'll have worked 6 possibly 9 months at EARS and worked on 2 different games. The great thing about this is that A) I'm already away from my GF, B) I get paid overtime and C) I don't have anything else to do when I'm out in California. However, after I graduate since I'll have that experience I hope I won't be one of those fresh-noobs and have to settle for whatever I can get. I really like working with the guys at EARS and if my good experiences there continue I wouldn't mind staying full-time after I graduate. Buuuuuuut I've never gone through crunch so there's that too....
Jonnyboy117
Member
People always ask me if I am interested in game development. Heh. No, I know too many people who are in it. I'll stick to playing the games and writing about them, thanks.
CaptainABAB
Member
Dave Long said:
But, how many times in your life can you say you took part in something that millions have experienced and enjoyed, that you can be proud to be part of, etc.?
Part of life is also utilizing your talents to the maximum while you are alive.
I guess you can have a cushy job creating boring business apps used by the company's internal budget group - but there is always time for that when you're older.
Right, when you're older and regret working all those hours for what amounted to a bunch of fanboys screaming at you for every wrong decision your team made...
Seriously. 80 hours a week is just plain stupid. The world revolves around people, relationships, family, living life... video games are just entertainment. It's a hobby. If you were curing cancer, then yeah, definitely work your heart out and feel content when you die. But video games? Please...
Seriously. 80 hours a week is just plain stupid. The world revolves around people, relationships, family, living life... video games are just entertainment. It's a hobby. If you were curing cancer, then yeah, definitely work your heart out and feel content when you die. But video games? Please...
hahahahahahahahaha. No. Very few companies have the luxury of a policy like that. God I wish they all did.
Considering most of the people I work with I consider my friends and in some part a sort of family then its really not that bad. Sure the pay sucks, the hours suck, and the benefits suck, but I wake up every morning and get to do something I love with a bunch of really cool people that I like hanging around.
It doesn't really matter how many fanboys end up bitching at the end of the project, in the event that the game doesn't suck ass, there's a good sense of pride seeing your work up there on a shelf.
Chittagong
Gold Member
Thank god for this thread. It reminded me why a job in strategy and biz dev is a lot more tolerable in the games industry and made me to put in rest (again) my ambitions of developing my own title. Having wathced close the development of a AAA title and the über-ambitious Producer almost burn out, I know I could do it but know now better not to go that way. Although he managed to do a truly revolutionary game, it still isn't worth the sacrifice.
Seriously,in the games industry it pays off big time to move to marketing, strategy or biz dev. Sure, there is always madness before E3 and during Sept-Oct, or before a big game unveiling, but nothing close to what I've read in this thread.
As for management consulting or investment banking, having worked your ass off as a junior at McKinsey, BCG or GS you are pretty sure to land you on a comfy Powerpoint job in a blue chip company. But working your ass off as a tester at EA, not sure if that'll land you to a similar position at the publishing side there.
Seriously,in the games industry it pays off big time to move to marketing, strategy or biz dev. Sure, there is always madness before E3 and during Sept-Oct, or before a big game unveiling, but nothing close to what I've read in this thread.
As for management consulting or investment banking, having worked your ass off as a junior at McKinsey, BCG or GS you are pretty sure to land you on a comfy Powerpoint job in a blue chip company. But working your ass off as a tester at EA, not sure if that'll land you to a similar position at the publishing side there.
i don't know about non-technical fields, but i just can't see the attraction of spending 80-100 hours a week plugging away at basically solved problems (the majority of your games software).
i realize there are some truly attractive problems in games that are very very interesting, but coming out of undergrad into your standard monolithic software giant (eg, EA), i just can't see it.
i realize there are some truly attractive problems in games that are very very interesting, but coming out of undergrad into your standard monolithic software giant (eg, EA), i just can't see it.
eh, like anything else its just an 'art' thing. It's a process.
what drives people to create 2d animation? drawing the same fucking thing over and over and over again, 12-24 times for every second. Spending *weeks* on just a few seconds of animation.
Same goes for 3d work. Spending a few months on a really kick ass model, another few weeks to animate, and for what? a couple of seconds of video?
I can't specifically speak for all the coders in the industry, but you're never just doing 'one' thing in a game. Games are so interdependant in their code and graphics that while maybe you're just trying to figure out how to stick an arrow into a piece of wood, that could have all sorts of snowballing design and art effects that you didn't even expect. A lot of time you plan stuff out, you think you've covered all the angles, you stick it in and it does something you totally weren't expecting it to do. Sometimes yea, its in a bad way, but sometimes its something great, some weird quirk that's turned into another take on gameplay.
You have to look at the system as a whole, not at individual problems.
what drives people to create 2d animation? drawing the same fucking thing over and over and over again, 12-24 times for every second. Spending *weeks* on just a few seconds of animation.
Same goes for 3d work. Spending a few months on a really kick ass model, another few weeks to animate, and for what? a couple of seconds of video?
I can't specifically speak for all the coders in the industry, but you're never just doing 'one' thing in a game. Games are so interdependant in their code and graphics that while maybe you're just trying to figure out how to stick an arrow into a piece of wood, that could have all sorts of snowballing design and art effects that you didn't even expect. A lot of time you plan stuff out, you think you've covered all the angles, you stick it in and it does something you totally weren't expecting it to do. Sometimes yea, its in a bad way, but sometimes its something great, some weird quirk that's turned into another take on gameplay.
You have to look at the system as a whole, not at individual problems.
i'm happy for you if you're in it for the artisanship, but i think your analogies are flawed.
there's more of a cultural permanence to traditional art. as a software engineer you're just cranking out code that's going to run through some compiler or interpreter and be mashed into some kind of pulp anyways. code has one purpose: to solve problems; given conditions compute some goal. if you're too attached to the code itself, i think, you're missing the point.
there's more of a cultural permanence to traditional art. as a software engineer you're just cranking out code that's going to run through some compiler or interpreter and be mashed into some kind of pulp anyways. code has one purpose: to solve problems; given conditions compute some goal. if you're too attached to the code itself, i think, you're missing the point.
I guess the problems are:
a) it's a creative process (as already mentioned)
and
b) from a technical standpoint, IMO, software engineering isn't that mature as a practice generally, let a lone within the games industry. The games industry is probably behind a lot of other software sectors in terms of adherence to good software engineering standards, be it due to lack of knowledge/expertise, or management/publisher pressure to skip over planning and get down to "real" work. If you skip over planning and don't follow some methodology, any mistakes will REALLY come back to bite you.
Making software on time and on budget tradtionally has been hard. That's why all these software engineering processes have emerged, but none are a silver bullet to begin with, and the games industry furthermore seems to gloss over them more than others. In other industries, delays are probably more possible, but theres less leeway in games, hence longer hours..
a) it's a creative process (as already mentioned)
and
b) from a technical standpoint, IMO, software engineering isn't that mature as a practice generally, let a lone within the games industry. The games industry is probably behind a lot of other software sectors in terms of adherence to good software engineering standards, be it due to lack of knowledge/expertise, or management/publisher pressure to skip over planning and get down to "real" work. If you skip over planning and don't follow some methodology, any mistakes will REALLY come back to bite you.
Making software on time and on budget tradtionally has been hard. That's why all these software engineering processes have emerged, but none are a silver bullet to begin with, and the games industry furthermore seems to gloss over them more than others. In other industries, delays are probably more possible, but theres less leeway in games, hence longer hours..
At most animation studios, the production pipeline doesn't work that way. An animator will draw key frames in a scene, then hand them off to an in-betweener that fills in secondary key frames, who hands them off to a breakdown animator who fills in lesser frames, etc. Rarely is an entire scene drawn from start to finish by one animator except at smaller, low-budget independent studios where people have to wear more than one hat. Even cut-rate TV animation isn't often done that way.Vark said:
Ditto for 3D animation. The modeler who designs a 3D model is not going to be the one who also animates it. People specialize.
My point was that it has nothing to do with 'just the code' it has to do with the context the code gets put into. The game as a whole running off all of its hundreds of thousand little parts. So while a couple of functions you wrote don't seem all that exciting / important, watching them operate in the grand scheme of things is the payoff.
I know, its what I went to school for. But every animator that is part of that pipeline started out doing it all themselves. It's not until you're high up on the animating food chain before you have lackys to do your crap for you. The fact is the tedium is at its fullest when you're just getting into the field and only backs off after many years of working at it. It's a bit of a baptism by fire sort of deal and its why only people that really love doing it can make it happen.
I disagree. I know many people who started working at an animation company in non-artistic, administrative, technical, or supporting roles and transitioned into specialized positions as modelers, lighters, animators, etc. by learning on the job and taking advantage of free training classes at the studio. They never had to do it all themselves. The entry path you took into the animation industry is only one of many.Vark said:
I replied because in your earlier post you seemed to be implying that people in animation do not specialize in one specific area, going on making a comparision with the videogame industry:
I just think that in general, videogame coders such as those described in this testimonial at EA and animators at EA-size animation studios do not share the same "crunch" experience. The testimonial itself even explains one reason why:Vark said:
Even then I'd imagine they had to build up a large enough body of portfolio work to get them hired in the first place. Anyone i've ever known has ended up spending more time on a portfolio piece than they do at a 'real' job simply do to the fact that you're not working on a team.
Anyway it's sort of moot. My comment wasn't meant as a comparison and I haven't been making any sort of specific mention on crunch time. Crunch Time exists for a multitude of factors. It sucks, it comes with the job. My comments were more focused on Fart and Dave Long's posts and were an attempt to give insight as to *why* someone would want to work under such crappy conditions.
My only point was that yes, the conditions are crappy, yes, the work is tedious, but in spite of everything the end product of everything coming together is usually worth it.
I understand what you mean now... I thought you might be saying that EA's alleged practices weren't so outrageous and are also common in other industries like animation. I knew that programming required long hours but the exploitation described in that article sounds pretty severe. One reason it's beyond anything in the (American) entertainment industry is because there seem to be no unions with the clout to protect software programmers from it.
If the unethical and illlegal practices described in the last excerpt I quoted are true, their conditions are far and away some of the crappiest out there!
Working ridiculous hours and not getting paid for it? No comp time either? I can't believe they haven't been sued for unfair labor practices yet.
If the unethical and illlegal practices described in the last excerpt I quoted are true, their conditions are far and away some of the crappiest out there!
Working ridiculous hours and not getting paid for it? No comp time either? I can't believe they haven't been sued for unfair labor practices yet.