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[Morphie]

I don't make rape jokes, and when I hear them my reaction is usually disgust. And I suspect this is the case for most people. Rape is a terrible thing, but it is not magically off limits from being made light of, just like other terrible subjects like racism, the holocaust, or any other "bad" thing.


My contention is to the degree to which this narrative exists. By saying we are awash in a rape culture implies that the vast majority of the populace is totally cool with rape and sexual assault, that it is so common as to be regarded as a natural and normal occurrence. And if rape culture doesn't imply complicity of rape, then the term is being erroneously and dishonestly used to stir emotions rather than to accurately describe. It's tarring and feathering everyone for the actions of a small minority, for no good reason.

You know who is really the victim here? The people who are perpetuating a society that culminates in the continued occurance of rape. It is their feelings we should be protecting, first and foremost. As for the rape-victims, well, we WOULD say that society should do a better job of treating sexism with disgust, as the resulting empowerment would counteract the normalization (and reduce the number of instances) of rape, but doing so might offend people who believe themselves to be avidly anti-rape (regardless of what behaviors they engage in which actually promote its recurrence), and really, it's the feelings of the non-rape-victims which are most important here.

 

[Morphie]

Am I suppose to feel sad or something? Don't you realize how pointless it is to appeal to my feelings when I am thinking logically. I am looking at the bigger picture here. Imagine if sexist jokes were made illegal. What would happen to all my favorite comedians who say such things(and mean it, to degree)? Of course, not to mention how totalitarian this would be on every individual.

Logical? Bigger picture? Nothing you've said has provided any insight whatsoever.

 

[Satyamdas]

You know who is really the victim here? The people who are perpetuating a society that culminates in the continued occurance of rape. It is their feelings we should be protecting, first and foremost. As for the rape-victims, well, we WOULD say that society should do a better job of treating sexism with disgust, as the resulting empowerment would counteract the normalization (and reduce the number of instances) of rape, but doing so might offend people who believe themselves to be avidly anti-rape (regardless of what behaviors they engage in which actually promote its recurrence), and really, it's the feelings of the non-rape-victims which are most important here.

Very nice false dichotomy. Unfortunately it fails to recognize that a person can accept off color jokes about women while at the same time condemn the actions of rapists or those who would apologize for them. This binary scenario you describe where on one side we have all the insensitive jokers and enablers, and on the other we have the oppressed and sexually violated, is not present now, nor has it ever been. I hear about a sexual assault or rape and I want to see painful justice done, and if I hear a good joke at the expense of women, I laugh. According to you the latter precludes the former, and by laughing at a joke I am somehow complicit in the act of assault or rape. No amount of hand wringing or finger pointing will ever bear that out, unfortunately.

 

[Morphie]

Nice try. Females are generally less physically powerful than males. You're not going to debate that, are you?

I suppose that for as long as physical strength is a relevant factor in human interaction, sexism will just Be There and we all have to suck it up?

I hope I live long enough to get a robot body.

Don't tell me what to do!

You're never going to get it if you don't even try. Here's a point though; if rape isn't caused by a pervasive attitude in society that culminates in so many men believing it's okay to rape (a much higher number of women than those who report it have experienced it, btw), what *are* the foundations which support its continued incidence?

 

[Night_Trekker]

What are these "circumstances"? I can think of nothing other than immediate self defense where I would physically be able to kill another person. I hardly think I am alone. Out of ~7 Billion people on the planet, how many do you think commit murder each year? Under 1 million, surely? So, given that the rest of us can seem to get by just fine without murdering, and that even in the face of our "animal instincts" we can remain relatively civil, I stand by my assertion that a sizable portion of humanity would not be able to bring themselves to murder. I think you are underestimating man's ability to hold his urges in check, far more than I am overestimating them.

Go read Night, by Elie Wiesel. He talks of watching sons and fathers being so hungry they fight each other to the death over scraps of bread thrown to them by the Nazis. It's a harrowing book, one of the most harrowing I've ever read. It's also true.

You'll note that I didn't say "reasonable," "likely," or even "realistic" circumstances. I am certain there is some combination of events and circumstances that could push any human being to lash out with deadly violence. (These would of course differ for each person.) I am certain those specific circumstances to not occur for very many people during their lifetimes. That would be extraordinarily unlikely, and I thank goodness for that.

I don't think the absence of murder or attempted murder by a majority of people is a valid rebuttal, nor is it proof of anything except that, as you say, people generally do a pretty good job of keeping their instincts in check.

I suppose that for as long as physical strength is a relevant factor in human interaction, sexism will just Be There and we all have to suck it up?

I hope I live long enough to get a robot body.

Suck it up? I don't know about that. Get as angry as you like. I don't much like it either.

But physical strength is a relevant factor in much human social interaction, yes. In a perfect world it wouldn't be, but this isn't a perfect world and we aren't a perfect species.

 

[Slavik81]

It's a complex issue. When framed under its most reprehensible fashion, by and large the public is not forgiving of rape. And by that, when its framed as the helpless victim brutally assaulted by the overpowering male figure who inflicts not only mental but also great physical harm on the victim, most will recoil with disgust.

That said, there is a great deal of skepticism about the validity of rape charges any time you throw in a few details that paint the victim as having questionable judgment. Questions like "What was she thinking being there?" or "That's why you don't leave your drink unattended" stated after the fact show a certain callous disregard for the act as something that just happens, and is easily preventable by the victim. While often innocuous and not directly intending any harm, the unfortunate consequence is that it implies blame towards the victim. Few will go so far as to outright blame the victim entirely, but there is a connotation that the act is somewhat deserved, otherwise she wouldn't have been in the predicament to begin with.

The entire justice system is based around skepticism of the charges laid against the defendant. The point of a trial is to judge the validity of the accusations, and to determine a suitable course of action once validity has been established.

Perhaps people are overly skeptical, but skepticism itself is absolutely necessary. Rape is a very serious crime, and carries a very serious punishment. To haphazardly punish the guilty and innocent alike would do more harm than good (both socially and in the formal legal system).

That said, things like 'That's why you don't leave your drink unattended' don't strike me much as skepticism. That seems like an entirely different thing.

 

[Riposte]

Logical? Bigger picture? Nothing you've said has provided any insight whatsoever.

Here is an insight: Being told what to say and think against your will sucks. It should be avoided at all costs.

All this rape culture garbage is a tool to do exactly that. It is completely illogical and sensational. The end result, like all the obvious solutions, is totalitarian.

I suppose that for as long as physical strength is a relevant factor in human interaction, sexism will just Be There and we all have to suck it up?

I hope I live long enough to get a robot body.

Or maybe a man's body. When it comes down to it I believe feminism is less of a hatred for men than it is a self-hatred for women.

 

[Count Dookkake]

I suppose that for as long as physical strength is a relevant factor in human interaction, sexism will just Be There and we all have to suck it up?

I hope I live long enough to get a robot body.

Some hateful nerd will figure out a way to rape robots.

 

[Satyamdas]

Go read Night, by Elie Wiesel. He talks of watching sons and fathers being so hungry they fight each other to the death over scraps of bread thrown to them by the Nazis. It's a harrowing book, one of the most harrowing I've ever read. It's also true.

You'll note that I didn't say "reasonable," "likely," or even "realistic" circumstances. I am certain there is some combination of events and circumstances that could push any human being to lash out with deadly violence. (These would of course differ for each person.) I am certain those specific circumstances to not occur for very many people during their lifetimes. That would be extraordinarily unlikely, and I thank goodness for that.

I don't think the absence of murder or attempted murder by a majority of people is a valid rebuttal, nor is it proof of anything except that, as you say, people generally do a pretty good job of keeping their instincts in check.

Well the original subject we were talking about was "normal" human behavior. I assert that rape and murder fall well outside of what could be considered "normal" behavior for humans.

Just as there is no set of circumstances which could cause me to rape or sexually assault someone, there are none which would cause me to kill in cold blood. My only claim with respect to humanity at large is that there is a "sizable chunk" who feel the same as me, who would not be able to carry out such acts unless forced. And I have no doubt that many would rather die than be forced to rape or kill. So while the capacity to kill clearly exists in everyone due to our physical ability to carry it out, I don't think the willingness to do so is as readily apparent as you claim, regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Morphie]

Here is an insight: Being told what to say and think against your will sucks. It should be avoided at all costs.

All this rape culture garbage is a tool to do exactly that. It is completely illogical and sensational. The end result, like all the obvious solutions, is totalitarian.



Or maybe a man's body. When it comes down to it I believe feminism is less of a hatred for men than it is a self-hatred for women.

You continue to get less relevant, more illogical, and now you're bordering on offensive. The idea that women want to be equal because they wish they were men is... absurd and disgusting. You should be ashamed of having said that.

Some hateful nerd will figure out a way to rape robots.

robot > human. Besides, they're already doing it in Japan. When robots get smart enough to remove their own genitals and replace them with razors, they *will* have the respect of their masters.

 

[Chuckie]

Or maybe a man's body. When it comes down to it I believe feminism is less of a hatred for men than it is a self-hatred for women.

...the fuck?

 

[Devolution]

...the fuck?

He really said that? Glad I got that guy on ignore. Such a great batch of juniors.

 

[Sotha Sil]

When it comes down to it I believe feminism is less of a hatred for men than it is a self-hatred for women.

Tag fishing? So soon?

 

[Riposte]

You continue to get less relevant, more illogical, and now you're bordering on offensive. The idea that women want to be equal because they wish they were men is... absurd and disgusting. You should be ashamed of having said that.

What exactly is the difference between a woman trading her body for a robotic one v.s. a flesh male one? They are both desperately attempts to become un-women, and entirely based on your post, because of the disdain of one's physical qualities. I find them both grotesque scenarios.

The thing is you haven't even told me once why I am illogical or irrelevant.

As for women becoming equal, I haven't even brought that up. Equal to whom? You can never really be equal to someone else. A woman, like a man, can reach her full potential at something and that may or may not better than average at it. Feminism, as it exists, is more like a vehicle to put people down. (EDIT: And those people are of all walks of life you happen not to agree with the intensity of various solutions. Like for example making any kind of joke taboo.)

 

[Songbird]

What exactly is the difference between a woman trading her body for a robotic one v.s. a flesh male one? They are both desperately attempts to become un-women, and entirely based on your post, because of the disdain of one's physical qualities. I find them both grotesque scenarios.

The thing is you haven't even told me once why I am illogical or irrelevant.

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

 

[Night_Trekker]

Just as there is no set of circumstances which could cause me to rape or sexually assault someone, there are none which would cause me to kill in cold blood. My only claim with respect to humanity at large is that there is a "sizable chunk" who feel the same as me, who would not be able to carry out such acts unless forced. And I have no doubt that many would rather die than be forced to rape or kill. So while the capacity to kill clearly exists in everyone due to our physical ability to carry it out, I don't think the willingness to do so is as readily apparent as you claim, regardless of the circumstances.

This need not have anything to do with "willingness," unless you believe there has never been an instance in which a human's base instincts have overpowered their higher mental functions. It's comforting to assume that we are the complete and total masters of our own bodies and physical actions/reactions in all situations, that our morals will stymie atavistic impulses, but I believe that's wishful thinking. And that's a horrifying thought.

And let's not even get into a discussion over "normal" human behavior. Murder and general mayhem is our history, and with the fall of civilization it would doubtless be once again. Civilization... er, keeps us civil, and thank goodness for it.

None of this is to say that I think most people are warlike or violent. I think most people don't want violent conflict. They want to live in peace and get along (more or less) with other people. That's not at all the same thing as saying "I think most people don't have the capacity to murder under any circumstances".

I think we aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this, and that's fine. I enjoy the discussion in any case.

 

[Riposte]

What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Go back a few quotes. The point is men are physically stronger and physical strength is still important. However, Morphie fantasizes about obtaining a robot body to overcome this difference which exist in males and females. Robots are not human, thus not female.

EDIT: Which is to say, shows a clear disgust for womanhood. Meanwhile, more healthy approach is to do things as a female, even if it is harder.

 

[OneMoreQuestion]

As I grow older, I no longer look at the world with anger, but with disappointment.

Yeah, sure makes you glad that you're a duck right?

Oh wait...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=369054

 

[Songbird]

Go back a few quotes. The point is men are physically stronger and physical strength is still important. However, Morphie fantasizes about obtaining a robot body to overcome this difference which exist in males and females. Robots are not human, thus not female.

But you go into this whole "a woman trading her body" thing that really has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Morphie]

What exactly is the difference between a woman trading her body for a robotic one v.s. a flesh male one? They are both desperately attempts to become un-women, and entirely based on your post, because of the disdain of one's physical qualities. I find them both grotesque scenarios.

The thing is you haven't even told me once why I am illogical or irrelevant.

As for women becoming equal, I haven't even brought that up. Equal to whom? You can never really be equal to someone else. A woman, like a man, can reach her full potential at something and that may or may not better than average at it. Feminism, as it exists, is more like a vehicle to put people down.

The robot body comment was my expression of a desire not to have my physical self considered "available" to men who are physically stronger than me, since so very few are willing to stop acting like sexist assholes. They can't seem to get it through their heads that the end result is other men feeling like - since SO many others treat me like less of a person with words - maybe I really am less of a person and so it's okay to treat me as such physically as well.

And some background on why I find you annoying and illogical; as a feminist and someone who has personally experienced the result of rape culture in the past, I find your assertions that feminism=self hate completely ridiculous and indicative of society's failure to educate you, and your own failure to educate yourself. Want to sound less like you're intellectually undernourished? Consider taking a women's studies course. It's not a room full of man eaters, whatever the other men tell you, and who-the-hell-knows, you might learn something.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

He really said that? Glad I got that guy on ignore. Such a great batch of juniors.

the vocal ones are certainly killing my spirits. so loud and so wrong so often. lol

 

[Riposte]

But you go into this whole "a woman trading her body" thing that really has nothing to do with anything.

I don't understand where the connection falls through. I was replying quite clearly to an idea someone else put forth. I don't know, consider my edit for a clearer explanation?

And Morphie: Will a woman's studies class teach me to hate on people with different values, especially when it comes to sense of humor? That is the issue here. You are creating this imaginary dilemma where jokes, kind of, sort of, make people do bad things to women. And what is the solution to that? How do you fix this? Is it not by making people stop telling such jokes? Education against their will?

EDIT: As for the self-hatred thing, it is not really about trying to become men or anything, but more like disparately enforcing people not to speak poorly of generalizations about your group. If you are a more mature person with high self-esteem than jokes shouldn't bother you so much to justify these extremes. It comes to the point where some of the more extreme feminist ideas attack everything which remotely puts women in an "unfavorable"(non-equal) situation, like they might think all sex is vile. Completely insecure in one's physical make-up(a disdain of one's own qualities). Of course, there is the idea that "rape culture" propaganda exists to prevent rape, but from my position that is completely bunk.

 

[SneakyStephan]

That is pretty grim.

Peer pressure can be an ugly thing (hear me out before you tear me apart)
How did all the people in the car make it 50 km (or however far they had to go) without realising what they were doing to that girl?
How did none of the people present at the house step up and stop it?

Then again how did all of these people even manage to get it up anyhow, you have to be pretty broken to be able to do something like that, premeditated, in a group, be it to an adult or a child.

I hope court deals with them appropriately and locks them away where they can't hurt innocent people anymore.

 

[Satyamdas]

This need not have anything to do with "willingness," unless you believe there has never been an instance in which a human's base instincts have overpowered their higher mental functions. It's comforting to assume that we are the complete and total masters of our own bodies and physical actions/reactions in all situations, that our morals will stymie atavistic impulses, but I believe that's wishful thinking. And that's a horrifying thought.

And let's not even get into a discussion over "normal" human behavior. Murder and general mayhem is our history, and with the fall of civilization it would doubtless be once again. Civilization... er, keeps us civil, and thank goodness for it.

None of this is to say that I think most people are warlike or violent. I think most people don't want violent conflict. They want to live in peace and get along (more or less) with other people. That's not at all the same thing as saying "I think most people don't have the capacity to murder under any circumstances".

I think we aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this, and that's fine. I enjoy the discussion in any case.

Murder and mayhem is a part of our history and will be with us for as long as we are here, but one can easily see that the overwhelming majority of people will never engage in such activities throughout their lifetimes, and as such I see nothing wrong with classifying those acts as abnormal (even if they are not as rare as I would prefer). And while every act of mayhem or murder is abominable, and while they are given a great deal of attention, I also have no qualms about asserting that murder and rape do not occur at a frequency which would be considered within the realm of "normal" human behavior. I suppose the necessary quotes around the word normal serves to illustrate how nebulous a concept it is, and I concede that my usage is subjective and anything but concrete. But when used as a euphemism for "common" or "typical", I think the usage is appropriate.

It's comforting to assume that we are the complete and total masters of our own bodies and physical actions/reactions in all situations, that our morals will stymie atavistic impulses, but I believe that's wishful thinking. And that's a horrifying thought.

My belief in the ability of man to control his baser urges is not rooted in comfort, nor is it wishful thinking. I hold that belief due to my experience. Now I would never claim that man is in total control of his body and mind, I believe there are simply degrees to which he maintains that restraint. The problem with this description is it implies that man is naturally in a state of aggression and full of a desire to conquer or do harm, and is only held back by his morality or fears or what have you. I think our default position is much closer to a peaceful one, and that society engenders feelings of anger and aggressive tendencies more than nature itself.

I suppose our point of contention is merely to what degree that control is present. On one hand we have unhinged lunatics with no control, and on the other we have examples of nonviolent resistance with near total control. I think most of us fall squarely in the middle and that the impetus to murder or rape is indeed predicated upon a willingness to engage in such activities, as I don't believe such actions are our default setting, nor are there extraneous circumstances which could compel one to commit what he otherwise considers detestable and atrocious acts. I just don't think we all have the intent to be murderers and rapists bubbling just underneath the surface, and that the only thing stopping us is a moral code.

I am fine with disagreement on this point, and I appreciate your insights. Apologies again for the earlier "kudos" comment.

 

[NotWii]

Give them all the electric chair, they don't deserve to live

 

[Shanadeus]

Give them all the electric chair, they don't deserve to live

I expected better from you.
What about their harmonic vibrations?

 

[SHAZOOM]

On Topic:

That's messed up.

On Morphie and Riposte:

You. You guys...... *SMH*

 

[Shanadeus]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/falkenberg/7465233.html

It doesn't matter if she wore makeup.

Or if she hung out with older boys at the playground, as some have claimed. Or if she bragged about sex on her Facebook page.

All that matters is that she is 11.

She couldn't have consented, not even if she wanted to.

If the horrific descriptions in court documents are true, and this sixth-grade girl from Cleveland endured hours of lurid, brutal sex with a gang of at least 17 men and boys in a single-wide trailer and a nearby house, there is only one word for it: rape.

Yet, the gossip tongues of Liberty County continue to suggest otherwise. And so has an attorney for several of the defendants charged in the case.

The attorney, James D. Evans III, has claimed to Houston Chronicle reporter Cindy Horswell that the victim was "seeking attention" and "she wants to be a porn star."

"This is not a case of a child who was enslaved or taken advantage of," Evans was quoted saying in a story Sunday.

It is not uncommon for those accused of rape to try and insinuate their victims somehow led them on to commit an act of sexual violence. Her skirt was too short. She was flirtatious. She said no, but she meant yes.

It's a revolting strategy, and it sometimes works. But to insinuate such a thing in the alleged gang rape of a child is beyond the pale.

Even some of Evans' fellow veteran defense attorneys, who make a living defending people accused of heinous crimes, were shocked at his comments.

"Jesus," said Patrick McCann, former president of the Harris County Criminal Defense Lawyers Association. "That ain't the way to approach this."

Under Texas law, anyone who has sex with an underage person can be charged with a crime, even if they claim not to have known the person's age, McCann said. And that's technically true even if the underage person lies about his or her age or produces a fake ID.

No one has suggested that the victim misled anyone about her age. Just that she looked and acted more mature than her years and somehow encouraged or even enjoyed what happened to her a few days after Thanksgiving last year.

Such a claim is hard to fathom, and not just because of her age.

Police say the girl was persuaded by a 19-year-old with prior drug convictions to leave her house and go "riding around" in his car with two other men. She soon found herself in a house where she says she was threatened with violence if she didn't take off her clothes.

Before long, she was having sex with several men, who then called others to join in. After a relative of one of the suspects arrived home, the assault continued at an abandoned trailer as the alleged rapists took video and photographs on their cell phones. The images went viral in the community, and among the alleged rapists, there appeared to be two star Cleveland High School basketball players and a school board member's son.

 

[Shanadeus]

TL;DR: The lawyer is saying that the girl wanted to do a gangbang and wanted to become a porn star in the future.

 

[Snuggles]

I hope that they are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the criminal law.

 

[Satyamdas]

"This is not a case of a child who was enslaved or taken advantage of," Evans was quoted saying in a story Sunday.

She soon found herself in a house where she says she was threatened with violence if she didn't take off her clothes.

The mind boggles at the ability of lawyers like this to spout this kind of bullshit with a straight face. Scum.

 

[Shanadeus]

He's just stupid, why he even brings up what she wanted or not is completely beyond me as it's statuary rape even if you thought she was older.

 

[ArachosiA 78]

Death penalty for all of them.

In my opinion, rape is even worse than murder, because it fucks up the victim's life forever. And to get raped at age 11, when you don't even really know what sex is...there's no way this girl will ever have a normal life. They totally destroyed her life. I don't believe in Hell, but in cases like this, I wish I did, so I would at least believe that justice would be served.

 

[Gvaz]

The mind boggles at the ability of lawyers like this to spout this kind of bullshit with a straight face. Scum.

I realize that, but they (in USA) are allowed a lawyer and you have to have someone defending them in a court case.

Don't be mad at the lawyers but rather the people.

 

[Satyamdas]

I realize that, but they (in USA) are allowed a lawyer and you have to have someone defending them in a court case.

Don't be mad at the lawyers but rather the people.

I understand due process just fine, and I am plenty angry at the people who raped the girl. Doesn't mean I can't be disgusted by a person who has the gall to say "She wears makeup and wants to do porn, and was not enslaved or taken advantage of" about an 11 year old girl who was gangraped by 18 men. I don't care if it's his "job" to say that shit, he's fucking scum.

 

[besada]

Some hateful nerd will figure out a way to rape robots.

You wouldn't download a vagina, would you?

 

[Shanadeus]

Texas: New Black Panther Leader Justifies Gang Rape of 11-Year-Old Hispanic Girl

CLEVELAND, Texas (Fox) — Racial divisions have surfaced in the town of Cleveland, 40 miles north of Houston, ever since last Thanksgiving’s alleged gang rape of an 11-year old Hispanic girl.

Most of the 17 suspects accused of sexually assaulting the preteen girl are black. And on Thursday night, community activist Quanell X hosted a rally there.

With some of the defendants’ parents standing next to him on stage, the activist took up a collection for their legal expenses from the largely African-American crowd.

While a few of those accused have admitted their guilt, he says others are probably innocent.

“She lives in another community,” Quanell X told the gathering. “You mean to tell me the only men that had sex with that girl were black men, locked up in that jail?”

The activist cast blame on the parents of the alleged victim, whom some describe as a willing participant in the sexual activity, at least initially.

He also took to task the elders in Cleveland’s black community for failing to guide the younger generation

Some people really need to learn to shut up.

 

[Funky Papa]

Texas: New Black Panther Leader Justifies Gang Rape of 11-Year-Old Hispanic Girl



Some people really need to learn to shut up.

What he needs is a straight up beating.

Edit: DON'T READ THE COMMENTS ON THAT SITE. They'll give you brain cancer.

 

[News Bot]

He also took to task the elders in Cleveland’s black community for failing to guide the younger generation

He's right about this though. Shit parenting generally results in shit people.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

What he needs is a straight up beating.

indeed. one or two good asskickings.

He's right about this though. Shit parenting generally results in shit people.

buh buh...the problem MUST be the terrible teachers!

 

[-viper-]

we should throw them in a fire.

 

[Dabanton]

What he needs is a straight up beating.

Edit: DON'T READ THE COMMENTS ON THAT SITE. They'll give you brain cancer.

Too late

I was just reading them,some absolutely disgusting racist comments.