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[Lionheart1337]

No I'm not. You seriously need data when its common sense that prevailing attitudes towards women, especially in rap, are misogynistic?

Misogyny can be found in places other than music, other than rap. To say that rape is influenced by rap is to say that it is influenced by other mediums and places where misogyny is readily observable, and again, there is no data to support it. Just that you think it's unnecessary says a lot to me.

 

[akira28]

Have you heard the expression "running a train on a trick."

Now I don't know the particular lyric or the context, but running a train is merely when a woman engages multiple partners in succession. Rape isn't implied. And a trick is a lot of things, but in particular it's a woman of a particular moral character, again, victimization is also not implied, though disrespect is.

I don't hear a lot of rap lyrics promoting rape. I hear a lot of hypersexualized images and ideas, but not outright celebration or positive references to sexual assault. I'm sure there are a few songs out there with lyrics like that, but there are like what, tens of thousands if not more, rap songs?

 

[Death Dealer]

In America, in particular, when you say ghetto, you're discussing the American black ghettos. Yes, some white (hispanic, asian, etc.) people live in the American black ghettos, but they are predominantly black (which is why they're ghettos) and making sweeping generalizations about the habits of people who live in American ghettos is going to lead you into making sweeping generalizations about black people, their primary residents.

Your logic is faulty. Even if most people in ghettos are black, which is debatable, in some cities the residents of ghettos are primarily people with Mexican ancestry, to make a generalization about those ghetto people, is not the same as making a generalization about all blacks or whatever group. The only way that would make sense is if all or most of the black people in this country live in ghettos, which is not true.

 

[PflargBlarg]

Now I don't know the particular lyric or the context, but running a train is merely when a woman engages multiple partners in succession. Rape isn't implied. And a trick is a lot of things, but in particular it's a woman of a particular moral character, again, victimization is also not implied, though disrespect is.

I don't hear a lot of rap lyrics promoting rape. I hear a lot of hypersexualized images and ideas, but not outright celebration or positive references to sexual assault. I'm sure there are a few songs out there with lyrics like that, but there are like what, tens of thousands if not more, rap songs?

Well it need not be explicitly about rape. I believe Devolution is pointing at the general description of women as sex objects in these songs. Then again, I also don't like her reliance on 'common sense' overriding any need for scientific study on the effects of such songs. I have a feeling that there are probably studies that have looked at the effects of the general objectification of women in society though.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Well it need not be explicitly about rape. I believe Devolution is pointing at the general description of women as sex objects in these songs. Then again, I also don't like her reliance on 'common sense' overriding any need for scientific study on the effects of such songs. I have a feeling that there are probably studies that have looked at the effects of the general objectification of women in society though.

we need studies? women have been objectified for several thousand years. if you need a study, I suggest you crack open a history book.

you're looking in the wrong place for an answer to the reason this happened.

suggesting people are more prone to go out and rape someone secondary to listening to a from music is embryonic at best.

 

[tiff]

We need studies more than we need things like "Rap music plays a significant role in the acceptance of rape in America. Proof: common sense."

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Now I don't know the particular lyric or the context, but running a train is merely when a woman engages multiple partners in succession. Rape isn't implied. And a trick is a lot of things, but in particular it's a woman of a particular moral character, again, victimization is also not implied, though disrespect is.

I don't hear a lot of rap lyrics promoting rape. I hear a lot of hypersexualized images and ideas, but not outright celebration or positive references to sexual assault. I'm sure there are a few songs out there with lyrics like that, but there are like what, tens of thousands if not more, rap songs?

Can't you see how "running a train" could easily become sexual assault if the first few guys insisted that she stick around for their friends? I can't imagine there are very many women who enjoy being fucked by 15 guys in the same night. To those guys who showed up at the house (in the case in the OP) after the initial threat was made to beat up the victim, for all they knew they were just "running a train", albeit on an under aged girl. It's an aberrant sexual act of male empowerment and female degradation, and it runs a slippery slope into rape the more people are present and the more drugs/alcohol are involved.

 

[Devolution]

suggesting people are more prone to go out and rape someone secondary to listening to a from music is embryonic at best.

I'm not suggesting they're more prone but that culture they embrace, through rap music, isn't exactly enlightened when it comes to respecting women and their bodily consent/autonomy.

 

[Devolution]

We need studies more than we need things like "Rap music plays a significant role in the acceptance of rape in America. Proof: common sense."

It is common sense that a prevailing attitude of disrespect towards women, treating them like second class citizens, and generally perpetuating the attitude that they are sex objects is a big problem. If you act like a woman is only a means to getting your dick wet, and not a person endowed with their own desires and bodily freedom, then you get an attitude that sees nothing wrong with rape.

 

[PflargBlarg]

we need studies? women have been objectified for several thousand years. if you need a study, I suggest you crack open a history book.

you're looking in the wrong place for an answer to the reason this happened.

suggesting people are more prone to go out and rape someone secondary to listening to a from music is embryonic at best.

What's wrong with scientific studies that look at the rates of rape, sexual assault, female upper management, female business ownership, etc. and compare it with societal objectification of women, then propose methods of improving views of women? Or perhaps studies comparing men who have lived in a social setting with extreme objectification to men who have not?

Spoiler

Well there probably is something wrong with those suggestions, I'm not a study designer.

I'm not sure where you're going with your first 2 paragraphs there, this isn't about music.

 

[YoungHav]

LOL I don't see why people had to interject race and rap music to this discussion. Society at large does not respect women and considers them sex objects. They are running trains and raping at the college frat house as well as in poor neighborhoods.

Rap music doesn't help but any "hurt" it causes is nominal and won't push an idiot over the edge into committing a driveby or a rape. The sociopathic jackass would have done these harms anyway. Did Calvin Butt's steamrolling gangster rap CDs in protest cure crime in the ghetto?

Can't you see how "running a train" could easily become sexual assault if the first few guys insisted that she stick around for their friends? I can't imagine there are very many women who enjoy being fucked by 15 guys in the same night. To those guys who showed up at the house (in the case in the OP) after the initial threat was made to beat up the victim, for all they knew they were just "running a train", albeit on an under aged girl. It's an aberrant sexual act of male empowerment and female degradation, and it runs a slippery slope into rape the more people are present and the more drugs/alcohol are involved.

I agree with this but anyone that grew up where running trains were common didn't learn it from rap music.

Good. One thing that always disturbed me was that while I 100% support withholding the names of potential victims in rape cases it always bothered me that when someone is accused or arrested for a sex crime that thier personal information is blasted all over the news. The mere accusation of a sex crime can ruin peoples lives and careers. At the very least I think that supposed criminals identies in these cases should remain hidden until there is enough evidence to bring them a trial. What do you guys think?

I agree. Like that "Gangrape case" at Hofstra, girl consented but said she was raped because she had a BF. The guys videotaped it and prosecutors found she was a willing participant. Those guys face and names were all over the news and all it takes is a google search by their future employers to screw them.

As a rap fan, plenty. Does that mean it causes rape? absolutely not and it is foolish to think so. That's like saying action movies where people get killed inspire murder irl.

What rap songs a talk about raping people? Off-hand the only blatant rape promotion song I can think of is Stay Wide Awake by Eminem.

 

[Lionheart1337]

Hav, look in to Odd Future. To raps credit, rape isn't really common subject matter, but there are definitely a share of rape songs. I wonder what those 13 guys listened to....

Oh god I need to stop watching Oz now, I might become a rapist.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Eminem throws out a rape reference, joking or not, like every other verse on his first two albums.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Oh god I need to stop watching Oz now, I might become a rapist.

No, you need to stop watching Oz now because the last two seasons suck ;p

 

[daw840]

As I am sure everyone has said....this is sickening. How the fuck does this shit happen? Seriously?!? That many humans in one place whom are OK with gang sex with an 11 year old?!? I swear to god, and this will come off as internet tough guy BS, but I would fucking stab someone in the throat if I saw them raping an 11 year old...

 

[Shanadeus]

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that the number of unreported or unprosecuted rapes far, far outweighs the number of false accusations. Being indicted (not merely arrested) for a crime should always remain a part of public record.

Devolution is correct: a large portion of hip hop music in general is disrespectful to women and objectifies them as sex objects. It also promotes a definition of masculinity defined by sexual prowess/promiscuity, and opulent spending. But I truly believe that the music is reflective of the rape culture pervasive in America, not responsible for it. I'd really love to have someone sit down and interview these guys after the trial (make no mistake, they're all going to jail for a very long time) and ask them why they did it and how they felt about it. I think you'd find a widely varying mix of remorse, peer pressure, sexual excitement, and utter contempt for the victim amongst the group.

From the South African study on gang rapes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31835572/ns/world_news-africa/

"Rape is an expression of male sexual entitlement," said Rachel Jewkes, chief researcher for the survey conducted by the government-funded Medical Research Foundation. "South Africa is an immensely patriarchal society. The history of the country has shaped the dominant forms of South Africa's racially defined masculinities."

For Rebombo, rape was a means to prove his manhood.
As a teen, he said he was cruelly taunted because he was not circumcised. Circumcision is considered a rite of passage in some tribes — but his father had almost died as a result of the unsanitary and brutal procedure, and swore his son would not be abused that way.
So Rebombo was subjected to daily, constant jeering.
"I was viewed as not man enough," said the large, soft-spoken man.
Peer pressure involving girls
Other boys pressured Rebombo to "teach a lesson" to one teenage girl who did not want to go out with them. He resisted at first, fearful of his religious parents and their good standing in the community. Then he relented.
On that Saturday, Rebombo was plied with beer and marijuana to overcome his nerves. "I had difficulty breathing," he said. "I had never had sex before. I was terrified."
The girl was brought to a field and Rebombo and another boy were left with her, he said.
The other boy "started raping her. She fought him. I was just there, dizzy with all the stuff. He just stood up and said: 'Your turn.' I was there on top of her," he said.
Afterward, "she just ran home."

It's passed down from generation to generation. The older guys in this case were probably similarly sexually initiated when they were younger. Though traumatic, rather than rejecting those that pushed them into it, they normalize their behavior by repeating it to another generation of teens when they get older. This cycle allows them to reconcile the actions in their minds because "hey, everybody does it."

If nothing is done to stop the rape culture in the US then I expect to see these sort of attitudes and behaviour to become a lot more common in the future there.

 

[Lionheart1337]

He used the word culture and preceded it with rape LMAO.

 

[Devolution]

He used the word culture and preceded it with rape LMAO.

You're an asshole.

 

[Satyamdas]

You're an asshole.

But there is merit in saying that "rape culture" is a wildly inaccurate and loaded phrase designed to brand large swathes of the population as accepting of something which they are not. When discussing the U.S. at least, insinuating we are a nation of rapists and rape apologists is just flat out idiotic, and that is what you are doing if you claim that the U.S. promotes a rape culture.

Are we a hypersexual culture? Sure. Overly materialist/consumerist culture? Yes. Violent culture? More than we should be. RAPE culture? No. If there is a rape culture within this nation it is a subset of a subset of a subset of the main population. Saying that we are in our entirety a "rape culture" implies that the average person is A-OK with rape, and that is absurd. There is really no other way to say it.

 

[Devolution]

But there is merit in saying that "rape culture" is a wildly inaccurate and loaded phrase designed to brand large swathes of the population as accepting of something which they are not. When discussing the U.S. at least, insinuating we are a nation of rapists and rape apologists is just flat out idiotic, and that is what you are doing if you claim that the U.S. promotes a rape culture.

Have you read the coverage of this case? By and large it's a great example of rape culture at work. Over at CNN they're discussing how the basketball team lost a game because of this. Oh wow, priorities.


One of the people in the community actually asked where the victim's mother was. This whole case has a lot of victim blaming going on.

 

[Shanadeus]

But there is merit in saying that "rape culture" is a wildly inaccurate and loaded phrase designed to brand large swathes of the population as accepting of something which they are not. When discussing the U.S. at least, insinuating we are a nation of rapists and rape apologists is just flat out idiotic, and that is what you are doing if you claim that the U.S. promotes a rape culture.

Are we a hypersexual culture? Sure. Overly materialist/consumerist culture? Yes. Violent culture? More than we should be. RAPE culture? No. If there is a rape culture within this nation it is a subset of a subset of a subset of the main population. Saying that we are in our entirety a "rape culture" implies that the average person is A-OK with rape, and that is absurd. There is really no other way to say it.

Might be good to post what rape culture is in order to avoid confusion:

Rape culture is a term used within women's studies and feminism, describing a culture in which rape and other sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media condone, normalize, excuse, or encourage sexualized violence.

Within rape culture, acts of sexism are commonly employed to validate and rationalize normative misogynistic practices; for instance, sexist jokes may be told to foster disrespect for women and an accompanying disregard for their well-being, which ultimately make their rape and abuse seem "acceptable". Examples of behaviors that typify rape culture include victim blaming and sexual objectification. In this way, sexualized violence towards women is regarded as a continuum in a society that regards women's bodies as sexually available by default.[1]

 

[Kaeru]

I wonder what the reaction would have been if 18 white men gangraped a 11 year old black girl.

 

[tiff]

are there any cultures that aren't rape cultures

 

[Shanadeus]

are there any cultures that aren't rape cultures

Matriarchal societies where the members of the male sex are subjugated.

 

[Veidt]

I wonder what the reaction would have been if 18 white men gangraped a 11 year old black girl.

Are you asking me, whether I think they deserve to die, and hope they burn in hell?

 

[Satyamdas]

Have you read the coverage of this case? By and large it's a great example of rape culture at work. Over at CNN they're discussing how the basketball team lost a game because of this. Oh wow, priorities.

Yes, I read the coverage and while the ignorance of those who would blame the victim boils my piss, it is evidence of a criminally primitive mindset and is NOT indicative of an overall attitude of our entire culture. You are taking the ignorant ramblings of a select group of people and assigning that mentality to our entire population, and that is just not sensible.

Obviously there are circles or pockets of people who have no problem with gangraping and tormenting girls and women. I'm not saying such subcultures don't exist. But when Shanadeus says "If nothing is done to stop the rape culture in the US then I expect to see these sort of attitudes and behaviour to become a lot more common in the future there.", he is saying that our entire culture is on board with this type of barbarism and that this mentality permeates every social strata and demographic, and it is patently ludicrous to assert such a thing.

 

[Devolution]

Yes, I read the coverage and while the ignorance of those who would blame the victim boils my piss, it is evidence of a criminally primitive mindset and is NOT indicative of an overall attitude of our entire culture. You are taking the ignorant ramblings of a select group of people and assigning that mentality to our entire population, and that is just not sensible.

Did you skim over the thread in which people lambasted women for dressing a certain way? Because plenty of GAF was posting nonsense in there. Not just some "randoms." Slut-shaming isn't as random as you think is, it happens constantly.

Obviously there are circles or pockets of people who have no problem with gangraping and tormenting girls and women. I'm not saying such subcultures don't exist. But when Shanadeus says "If nothing is done to stop the rape culture in the US then I expect to see these sort of attitudes and behaviour to become a lot more common in the future there.", he is saying that our entire culture is on board with this type of barbarism and that this mentality permeates every social strata and demographic, and it is patently ludicrous to assert such a thing.

There is an entire culture of silencing victims, victim blaming and questioning the sexual history of women who've been raped. Why do you think reported rapes are so low? Why do you think this community actually sees nothing wrong with harassing this girl? Hell even the MSM's reporting is victim blaming central.

 

[tiff]

Matriarchal societies where the members of the male sex are subjugated.

utopia.

 

[Satyamdas]

Did you skim over the thread in which people lambasted women for dressing a certain way? Because plenty of GAF was posting nonsense in there. Not just some "randoms." Slut-shaming isn't as random as you think is, it happens constantly.

Nobody was "lambasting" women in that thread. You took the observation that skimpy attire might attract unwanted attention and twisted that into an apologizing for rapists. Slut-shaming is not cool, but it still is not tantamount to an acceptance of rape or sexual assault.

There is an entire culture of silencing victims, victim blaming and questioning the sexual history of women who've been raped. Why do you think reported rapes are so low? Why do you think this community actually sees nothing wrong with harassing this girl?

Exactly, there is a culture WITHIN our population which is backwards enough to blame the victim and which finds this behavior acceptable, but this culture is not dominant and my only beef is with asserting that the entire culture of the U.S. agrees with it or is a part of it. It's too alarmist and reckless to say that this kind of behavior is tolerated and accepted by our culture at large.

I do not deny that it is far too prevalent in general for a supposed "civilized" society, but I think that labeling the entire nation as no different from these rapists or saying that we all are complicit or would apologize for their behavior is just dishonest and frankly, stupid.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Obviously there are circles or pockets of people who have no problem with gangraping and tormenting girls and women. I'm not saying such subcultures don't exist. But when Shanadeus says "If nothing is done to stop the rape culture in the US then I expect to see these sort of attitudes and behaviour to become a lot more common in the future there.", he is saying that our entire culture is on board with this type of barbarism and that this mentality permeates every social strata and demographic, and it is patently ludicrous to assert such a thing.

It's a complex issue. When framed under its most reprehensible fashion, by and large the public is not forgiving of rape. And by that, when its framed as the helpless victim brutally assaulted by the overpowering male figure who inflicts not only mental but also great physical harm on the victim, most will recoil with disgust.

That said, there is a great deal of skepticism about the validity of rape charges any time you throw in a few details that paint the victim as having questionable judgment. Questions like "What was she thinking being there?" or "That's why you don't leave your drink unattended" stated after the fact show a certain callous disregard for the act as something that just happens, and is easily preventable by the victim. While often innocuous and not directly intending any harm, the unfortunate consequence is that it implies blame towards the victim. Few will go so far as to outright blame the victim entirely, but there is a connotation that the act is somewhat deserved, otherwise she wouldn't have been in the predicament to begin with.

 

[Devolution]

Exactly, there is a culture WITHIN our population which is backwards enough to blame the victim and which finds this behavior acceptable, but this culture is not dominant and my only beef is with asserting that the entire culture of the U.S. agrees with it or is a part of it. It's too alarmist and reckless to say that this kind of behavior is tolerated and accepted by our culture at large.

I do not deny that it is far too prevalent in general for a supposed "civilized" society, but I think that labeling the entire nation as no different from these rapists or saying that we all are complicit or would apologize for their behavior is just dishonest and frankly, stupid.

Wrong.

Look up the MSM articles even on this heinous act and read very closely, there is still tacit victim blaming.

Here go watch this:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2011/03/07/nr.tx.gang.rape.cnn

And tell me what you think.

 

[Satyamdas]

It's a complex issue. When framed under its most reprehensible fashion, by and large the public is not forgiving of rape. And by that, when its framed as the helpless victim brutally assaulted by the overpowering male figure who inflicts not only mental but also great physical harm on the victim, most will recoil with disgust.

That said, there is a great deal of skepticism about the validity of rape charges any time you throw in a few details that paint the victim as having questionable judgment. Questions like "What was she thinking being there?" or "That's why you don't leave your drink unattended" stated after the fact show a certain callous disregard for the act as something that just happens, and is easily preventable by the victim. While often innocuous and not directly intending any harm, the unfortunate consequence is that it implies blame towards the victim. Few will go so far as to outright blame the victim entirely, but there is a connotation that the act is somewhat deserved, otherwise she wouldn't have been in the predicament to begin with.

Well said. It is a problem without a resolution, because in any case where it is one person's word against another, the facts need to be laid out and people DO have to consider whether the accuser is being honest or perhaps regretted doing something or is being coerced into making a false accusation. There is no getting around dealing with uncertainty and doubt with respect to an accuser's claims (at least in cases where there is no physical evidence), and while this has the unfortunate side effect of being read as "blame", I still think it is unfair to say that our entire culture is predisposed to acceptance of rape as just something that happens or that all of us in the back of our minds are ready and willing to blame the victim any time a charge of rape is brought forth.

 

[Satyamdas]

Wrong.

Look up the MSM articles even on this heinous act and read very closely, there is still tacit victim blaming.

Here go watch this:
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2011/03/07/nr.tx.gang.rape.cnn

And tell me what you think.

Again, I am not saying that there exist no people who blame the victim. They do exist. What I am saying, is that in a nation of 100s of millions, you can't take a few selected quotes and apply that to our entire culture as a whole. I can't stress enough that I loathe the mentality of those who would apologize for rape and who would commit the act, and I really wish those people didn't exist at all. But I also can recognize that those people and that mentality is not accepted by the majority of our culture. It just isn't.

 

[Acid08]

are there any cultures that aren't rape cultures

You tell me.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

You tell me.

Tentacle rape is different. We can't apply human laws to tentacled monsters.

 

[Shanadeus]

Yes, I read the coverage and while the ignorance of those who would blame the victim boils my piss, it is evidence of a criminally primitive mindset and is NOT indicative of an overall attitude of our entire culture. You are taking the ignorant ramblings of a select group of people and assigning that mentality to our entire population, and that is just not sensible.

Obviously there are circles or pockets of people who have no problem with gangraping and tormenting girls and women. I'm not saying such subcultures don't exist. But when Shanadeus says "If nothing is done to stop the rape culture in the US then I expect to see these sort of attitudes and behaviour to become a lot more common in the future there.", he is saying that our entire culture is on board with this type of barbarism and that this mentality permeates every social strata and demographic, and it is patently ludicrous to assert such a thing.

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here regarding the nature of rape culture.
The entire culture, the majority of people, don't have to be on-board with actual rapes and sexual assaults in order to be classified as propagating a rape culture.
Norms and attitudes regarding sex that "condone, normalize, excuse, or encourage sexualized violence.", is just a big part of rape culture as the open acceptance and occurrence of rapes.

Not let's take a look at what some people said in the rape thread a couple of weeks ago:

This primal urge is so hardwired in humans that to rail against it or think that you can somehow 'fix' such an instinct is foolish thinking. It will always be there. The difference is in how that urge is manifested, and unfortunately we can't predict behavior or snuff it out. Not every woman approves of that approach, but some do, and not every male grabs random body parts, but some do. You have to be completely oblivious to the world around you to not know what you are getting into when you go to certain social situations.

TRight, but when I do get robbed, no one will say "well you shouldn't have left your doors unlocked and windows open." They'll say "fuck, I hate robbers, what horrible pieces of shit."

We have to accept that our world is not ideal and their are fucking idiots out there, that will see a bird walking down the street in a mini skirt that resembles a belt and her camels hoof hanging out and think she needs to get it whether she wants it or not.

Rapists and other sexual violence criminals are pretty much reduced to something of a natural force that you simply cannot help or prevent preventively - which excuses and normalizes the rape as a common occurrence and shifts focus from the rapists actions to what women can do not to be raped.

Rape culture everywhere, we just don't notice it most of the time because it's often expressed in "harmless" sexist jokes and unequal norms. Heck, and the outright blamers of victims aren't even a minority.

Just look at this recent study in the UK:

A majority of women believe some rape victims should take responsibility for what happened, a survey suggests.

Almost three quarters of the women who believed this said if a victim got into bed with the assailant before an attack they should accept some responsibility.

One-third blamed victims who had dressed provocatively or gone back to the attacker's house for a drink.

The survey of more than 1,000 people in London marked the 10th anniversary of the Haven service for rape victims.

More than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.

The study found that women were less forgiving of the victim than men.

Of the women who believed some victims should take responsibility, 71% thought a person should accept responsibility when getting into bed with someone, compared with 57% of men.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Rapists and other sexual violence criminals are pretty much reduced to something of a natural force that you simply cannot help or prevent preventively - which excuses and normalizes the rape as a common occurrence and shifts focus from the rapists actions to what women can do not to be raped.

Rape culture everywhere, we just don't notice it most of the time because it's often expressed in "harmless" sexist jokes and unequal norms.

I tried to cover this in that thread, so let me reiterate that there is something that distinguishes these two threads in the regards to a discussion about the act itself: in that thread, there was no victim, and in this thread, there is. Why do I bring this up? Mainly because, again, I don't think that every piece of preventative advice offered towards women is disingenuous and implicitly condoning rape. However, in this thread, directed at this girl, I agree with that notion. We shouldn't be talking about this girl as though it's her fault, or that she somehow had it coming to a degree. Anybody in the media or in that neighborhood suggesting that is doing a detrimental service to humanity. At this juncture, any and all attention should be focused on how abhorrent this act was, and that it cannot be condoned in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Lambtron]

With rape especially, there are far too many instances of wrongful arrest where innocent people have their lives destroyed because the shadow of suspicion forever hangs over them... that I think their names should be kept secret until they've been convicted at the very least.

Things are certainly rough for those kids from Duke, right?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

I wonder what the reaction would have been if 18 white men gangraped a 11 year old black girl.

There would probably be dozens of posters demonizing the attackers and asking for them to brutally murdered in retalia...

Oh, I guess that wasn't a serious question, you're fishing for an answer to your earlier question.

White men generally don't rape black women. White men don't generally date black women. In America, black women are generally viewed as the least desirable partners for interracial relationships and copulation.

As for hate crimes? Based on the very statistics you posted, most hate crime victims in this country are black (despite being a minority), and most hate crimes in general are perpetrated by whites against blacks.

Is there really a reason to make this thread racially charged when everyone involved in the incident was black?

 

[Satyamdas]

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here regarding the nature of rape culture.
The entire culture, the majority of people, don't have to be on-board with actual rapes and sexual assaults in order to be classified as propagating a rape culture.
Norms and attitudes regarding sex that "condone, normalize, excuse, or encourage sexualized violence.", is just a big part of rape culture as the open acceptance and occurrence of rapes.

And therein lies the rub. If the majority of people are not on board with actual rapes or sexual assaults, and they don't blame the victim when they happen, and they condemn the action vehemently, then how can they be said to be propagating a "rape" culture? It's an unfair indictment against an entire population, the vast majority of which finds rape and those who blame the victim abhorrent.

Rapists and other sexual violence criminals are pretty much reduced to something of a natural force that you simply cannot help or prevent preventively - which excuses and normalizes the rape as a common occurrence and shifts focus from the rapists actions to what women can do not to be raped.

Your conclusions are faulty. A woman taking an ounce of preventative measure does not in any way minimize a perpetrator's guilt were she to be raped. The idea that certain styles of dress might bring unwanted attention is not incompatible with complete and total focus of blame for a rape on the attacker. These ideas are not mutually exclusive or diametrically opposed, no matter how much you claim the contrary.

As for rape being a force that you cannot prevent, I am afraid that is the sad truth of the matter. In a similar fashion we cannot prevent murder, assault, drug use, smoking, abortion, gluttony, child molestation, or any number of things which the public tries very hard to educate against.

You refuse to confront the reality that there is no amount of "education" or social engineering which will stop the baser among us from acting out on their impulses. These acts will exist for as long as humanity exists. Acknowledging this does not imply tacit approval, nor does it mean that attempts to educate are wrong or futile. It is a pragmatic and realistic view of the capacity for human behavior.

Rape culture everywhere, we just don't notice it most of the time because it's often expressed in "harmless" sexist jokes and unequal norms. Heck, and the outright blamers of victims aren't even a minority.

The link between a sexist joke and the tacit approval or acceptance of rape is beyond tenuous. It is pretty silly actually, to make the comparison, and that is why the phrase "rape culture" is met with ridicule and opposition. Someone makes a joke about women drivers or comments on a sexually appealing woman, and another person then surmises that for doing so they are complicit in propagating a culture which finds rape acceptable. This is a leap in logic of the highest order, and is itself propagated by an alarmist and radical mentality.

 

[Shanadeus]

I'll get back to you Saty but I thought I'd just an example of the trivialization of women that help the creation and expansion of a rape culture society:

In Old English sources the word "man" was gender-neutral, with a meaning similar to the modern English usage of "one" as an indefinite pronoun. The words wer and wyf were used to specify a man or woman where necessary. Combining them into wer-man or wyf-man expressed the concept of "any man" or "any woman." Over time, in the context of a patriarchal social and legal system, wer-man was simplified to man while wyf-man developed into woman.[3][4] Feminists have suggested that the less prejudicial usage of the Old English sources reflects more egalitarian notions of gender at the time.[2]

 

[Satyamdas]

I'll get back to you Saty but I thought I'd just an example of the trivialization of women that help the creation and expansion of a rape culture society:

In Old English sources the word "man" was gender-neutral, with a meaning similar to the modern English usage of "one" as an indefinite pronoun. The words wer and wyf were used to specify a man or woman where necessary. Combining them into wer-man or wyf-man expressed the concept of "any man" or "any woman." Over time, in the context of a patriarchal social and legal system, wer-man was simplified to man while wyf-man developed into woman.[3][4] Feminists have suggested that the less prejudicial usage of the Old English sources reflects more egalitarian notions of gender at the time.[2]

Oh for fuck's sake, dude, really?? Your definition of "rape culture" extends to the realm of the personal pronoun?

Do you honestly buy into this notion that the usage of specific masculine and feminine pronouns is somehow inherently harmful and or sexist, and moreover, that these pronouns are "an example of the trivialization of women that help the creation and expansion of a rape culture society"??? The mind boggles.

And people wonder why this kind of "feminism" is rejected so thoroughly by men and women alike. It is very hard to take these kinds of claims seriously.

 

[Dan Yo]

This "rape culture" notion shouldn't just be a feminist assertion. More men are raped yearly than women. Significantly more.

 

[The Lamp]

"It ain't nobody in this community not upset behind this. It's pitiful."

how does....how do you even...

what

 

[Lambtron]

This "rape culture" notion shouldn't just be a feminist assertion. More men are raped yearly than women. Significantly more.

Statistics on this. I find this extremely hard to believe.

Something being feminist does not mean it only applies to women.

 

[Satyamdas]

This "rape culture" notion shouldn't just be a feminist assertion. More men are raped yearly than women. Significantly more.

"Rape culture" is a term originated by feminists, and while their focus may be on women primarily, I doubt they would argue that men are not also victims of rape and sexual assault as a result of this "culture".

The problem I have is that the term is grossly inaccurate and the examples used to define it are appallingly weak (gender specific pronouns, sexist jokes, etc.). Clearly there are those among us who celebrate and perpetuate such behavior, but to try and affix that label to our society as a whole is just folly.

 

[YoungHav]

There would probably be dozens of posters demonizing the attackers and asking for them to brutally murdered in retalia...

Oh, I guess that wasn't a serious question, you're fishing for an answer to your earlier question.

White men generally don't rape black women. White men don't generally date black women. In America, black women are generally viewed as the least desirable partners for interracial relationships and copulation.

As for hate crimes? Based on the very statistics you posted, most hate crime victims in this country are black (despite being a minority), and most hate crimes in general are perpetrated by whites against blacks.

Is there really a reason to make this thread racially charged when everyone involved in the incident was black?

Kaeru has been heavily race-trolling as of late lol.

 

[Shanadeus]

Oh for fuck's sake, dude, really?? Your definition of "rape culture" extends to the realm of the personal pronoun?

Do you honestly buy into this notion that the usage of specific masculine and feminine pronouns is somehow inherently harmful and or sexist, and moreover, that these pronouns are "an example of the trivialization of women that help the creation and expansion of a rape culture society"??? The mind boggles.

And people wonder why this kind of "feminism" is rejected so thoroughly by men and women alike. It is very hard to take these kinds of claims seriously.

Their effect on society might be minimal and subtle but it is there nonetheless.
I suspect that you must have missed the whole "Dickwolves" controversy where a notorious web comic creator merely said something in defence of a previous rape comic which he was heavily criticized for - both cases being an example of how widespread rape culture is.

 

[Nekofrog]

Can't you see how "running a train" could easily become sexual assault if the first few guys insisted that she stick around for their friends? I can't imagine there are very many women who enjoy being fucked by 15 guys in the same night. To those guys who showed up at the house (in the case in the OP) after the initial threat was made to beat up the victim, for all they knew they were just "running a train", albeit on an under aged girl. It's an aberrant sexual act of male empowerment and female degradation, and it runs a slippery slope into rape the more people are present and the more drugs/alcohol are involved.

When I was in tech school, there were a lot of chicks there who loved it. Line up 20 marines and have at it.

 

[Frostburn]

I don't care how it happened I'd be happy if the thread title eventually changed to

Thirteen adult men and five boys arrested in gangrape of an 11 year old then they were all killed.