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[RustyNails]

I apologize for a clickbait-ey title. I saw this 3 minute BBC Newsnight video discussing the rise of Trump and how it was foretold by Plato's Republic.

Viewpoint: What can Plato teach us about Donald Trump? - BBC Newsnight

I have never read the book, but now I want to. What are your thoughts? Is this really in the book? Are we nearing the end of democracy? I'm now more worried about the damage his people are going to do to the institutions.

 

[SpaceWolf]

That video's freaked me out a bit. Man.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

That video's freaked me out a bit. Man.

Same here. Fuck.

 

[Auctopus]

Are we nearing the end of democracy?

No.

OP, you should read a little about the economic situation Germany was in post-WW1. Whilst there was a flourish of culture, you should read in to the language and behaviour techniques Adolf Hitler used to capture the hearts and minds of the German people.

Whilst oversimplified, he used the Germany people's desperation against them in order to gain influence and found blamespaces for them to use.

Edit: Quite disappointed in Newsnight to use such "I'm 14 and this is edgy" imagery such as the Guy Fawkes mask and the legions of people wearing smiley masks.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

No.

OP, you should read a little about the economic situation Germany was in post-WW1. Whilst there was a flourish of culture, you should read in to the language and behaviour techniques Adolf Hitler used to capture the hearts and minds of the German people.

Whilst oversimplified, he used the Germany people's desperation against them in order to gain influence and found blamespaces for them to use.

Isn't that exactly what is happening here?

 

[Dyle]

Great animation, really adds to the ideas being presented. The Republic is a fantastic, if dry read. It was one of the books everyone at my college studied and it touches or relates to every aspect of philosophical thought. The video could have been a bit better if they had discussed Plato's ideal government of philosopher kings and the interesting way he proposes in the book to achieving it. Certainly wish our rulers were more like that.

 

[j_k_redtail]

Last year, Andrew Sullivan wrote an article referencing the same passage from Plato's Republic. The article was criticized for a number of reasons, but he makes the same points.

 

[sphagnum]

Whilst oversimplified, he used the Germany people's desperation against them in order to gain influence and found blamespaces for them to use.

I knew there was something wrong with that guy.

 

[Auctopus]

Isn't that exactly what is happening here?

That's my point. Trump and his team have adopted very similar techniques. Yes, the Nazis turned in to miltary dictatorship but OP asked if this was the end of democracy, to which I answered no, because after the reign of Hitler and WW2, the majority of the world remained democracies.

I'm not saying either that Trump is in the position to develop a dictatorship, there are checks in the branches of the US Government (see: kittenbreath's comment below), there's a microscopic chance of it happening. But it depends on what you believe? Did the Cold War ever end? Who is really pulling the strings?

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a rabbit hole. Seeing as this seems to be OPs first encounter with one of the most important political writings, I suggested that he read up on one of the last significant cases of such a thing happening.

---------

Edit: OP, the book Rise and Fall of The Third Reich is a pretty informative read. Additionally, if you want to know what would happen if a dictatorial infrastructure was suddenly swept from under the feet of citizens, leaving a vaccuum, read: The End

 

[Dierce]

That's my point. Trump and his team have adopted very similar techniques. Yes, the Nazis turned in to miltary dictatorship but OP asked if this was the end of democracy, to which I answered no, because after the reign of Hitler and WW2, the majority of the world remained democracies.

I'm not saying either that Trump is in the position to develop a dictatorship, there are checks in the branches of the US Government, there's a microscopic chance of it happening. But it depends on what you believe? Did the Cold War ever end? Who is really pulling the strings?

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a rabbit hole. Seeing as this seems to be OPs first encounter with one of the most important political writings, I suggested that he read up on one of the last significant cases of such a thing happening.

I think it depends entirely on the media. Do they bow down and cower over increasingly persistent propaganda and accusations from the right or do they stand up and push back.

Does the ever increasingly proficiency for fake news make this harder on real news outlets and if so do they start making up their own news to fit their own goals? Do they make a deal with the enemy to stop harassment?

If net neutrality is neutered and the mainstream news outlets either become tabloids or and arm for propaganda or simply hides the truth, how can Democracy exist?

 

[kittenbreath]

^^That's actually Sullivan in the video above.

Personally I think his argument is a little melodramatic, as he often tends to be, despite making some interesting parallels with current events. But while Trump may be of an authoritarian disposition, the conditions for him to become a tyrant don't presently exist.

In part because

-the structure of the US government doesn't allow it (the framers of the constitution themselves feared the naked majoritarianism described in classical critiques of "democracy", creating a constitutional scheme of seperate but coequal branches within a decentralized government)

-and because Trump currently lacks the widespread popular support that would be necessary to overcome such constitutional hurdles

 

[Yamauchi]

Great animation, really adds to the ideas being presented. The Republic is a fantastic, if dry read. It was one of the books everyone at my college studied and it touches or relates to every aspect of philosophical thought. The video could have been a bit better if they had discussed Plato's ideal government of philosopher kings and the interesting way he proposes in the book to achieving it. Certainly wish our rulers were more like that.

Our rulers are not philosopher kings primarily because we are a democracy. Looking at history, it does seem Plato was right that gerontocracy is the best system yet devised.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The only thing I remember about The Republic from my philosophy class in college is something about philosopher kings and also how Plato was clearly pretending to be Socrates as the manner in which The Republic is written differs greatly from Plato's other works which feature Socrates as a primary character.

 

[j_k_redtail]

^^That's actually Sullivan in the video above.

Wow, today I realize that I've never heard the man speak. I didn't recognize the voice, though I did recognize his argument.

 

[Auctopus]

If net neutrality is neutered and the mainstream news outlets either become tabloids or and arm for propaganda or simply hides the truth, how can Democracy exist?

Because everybody would still have a voice. Whether you are a victim to propaganda or not, if everybody is given the chance to vote for the type of government or person they want then it is a democracy, regardless of various influences in the media.

You don't think already that certain news stations are soft propaganda? I'm not trying to be condescending but you understand that in a dictatorship, in a non-democracy, that nobody gets a say? You do not vote.

 

[Permanently A]

I'm shook. Plato is a prescient motherfucker.

 

[Ether_Snake]

According to wikipedia:

The starting point is Aristocracy, a just government dominated by the wisdom-loving element. When its social structure breaks down and enters civil war, it is replaced by Timocracy. The Timocratic government is dominated by the spirited element, with a ruling class of warriors or generals (Ancient Sparta is an example). As the emphasis on honor is compromised by wealth accumulation, it is replaced by Oligarchy. The Oligarchic government is dominated by the desiring element, in which the rich are the ruling class. The gap between rich and poor widens, culminating in a revolt by the underclass majority, establishing a Democracy. Democracy emphasizes maximum freedom, so power is distributed evenly. It is also dominated by the desiring element, but in an undisciplined, unrestrained way. The populism of the Democratic government leads to mob rule, fueled by fear of oligarchy, which a clever demagogue can exploit to take power and establish Tyranny. In a Tyrannical government, the city is enslaved to the tyrant, who uses his guards to remove the best social elements and individuals from the city to retain power (since they pose a threat), while leaving the worst. He will also provoke warfare to consolidate his position as leader. In this way, tyranny is the most unjust regime of all.

Sounds more like we're not yet a democracy, rather than close to tyranny.

An example would be aristocracy in France, which was then overthrown to be replaced by Napoleon (timocracy) which was then dismantled to be replaced by an oligarchy that persists until today, but with emerging traits of democracy.

 

[kirblar]

Isn't that exactly what is happening here?

Germany was legitimately in a terrible economic place post-WWI.

The same is not true of the United States. Hillary Clinton won counties accounting for nearly 2/3rds of the nation's GDP. (Bush/Gore was 50/50, by contrast.) She won the popular vote- the problem is that because wealth is now concentrated in Urban areas, it's screwing us up because the political system is slanted against them.

 

[Easy_D]

According to wikipedia:



Sounds more like we're not yet a democracy, rather than close to tyranny.

An example would be aristocracy in France, which was then overthrown to be replaced by Napoleon (timocracy) which was then dismantled to be replaced by an oligarchy that persists until today, but with emerging traits of democracy.

Yeah the US really hasn't had a class revolution yet has it?

 

[kirblar]

Yeah the US really hasn't had a class revolution yet has it?

Can't have a class revolution when the white people won't stand with the nonwhite ones.

 

[jviggy43]

Plato's republic is fantastic and much easier to read than a lot of other philosophical texts.

Will watch the video later. In terms of the end of democracy; seems a bit hyperbolic and premature but its easy to see where we are laying the foundation to its eventual end.

Can't have a class revolution when the white people won't stand with the nonwhite ones.

And unfortunately this is strategically employed kn order to circumvent any such revolution. Dog Whistle Politics is a good read on this topic.

 

[mjp2417]

The only thing I remember about The Republic from my philosophy class in college is something about philosopher kings and also how Plato was clearly pretending to be Socrates as the manner in which The Republic is written differs greatly from Plato's other works which feature Socrates as a primary character.

It's actually the other way around (if I'm parsing you correctly). Scholarly consensus - and I'm very much an amateur here - tends to hold that The Republic represents Plato's own philosophy in its purest form decoupled from Socrates' philosophy, whereas many of his other major works (e.g. The Apology) are more direct transcriptions of Socrates' views, not Plato's. In other words, if you want to learn about what Plato thought, read The Republic; if you want to learn about what Socrates thought, read the other stuff. It's obviously much more complicated than that in practice, because Plato is always the author and Socrates the literary protagonist/historical figure and there is always going to be some intermingling between writer and subject, but that is the general dichotomy.

 

[jviggy43]

It's actually the other way around (if I'm parsing you correctly). Scholarly consensus - and I'm very much an amateur here - tends to hold that The Republic represents Plato's own philosophy in its purest form decoupled from Socrates' philosophy, whereas many of his other major works (e.g. The Apology) are more direct transcriptions of Socrates' views, not Plato's. In other words, if you want to learn about what Plato thought, read The Republic; if you want to learn about what Socrates thought, read the other stuff. It's obviously much more complicated than that in practice, because Plato is always the author and Socrates the literary protagonist/historical figure and there is always going to be some intermingling between writer and subject, but that is the general dichotomy.

This. In fact the beginning of the Republic even mentions the fact that Socrates is now dead (and going into hell haha).

 

[Saint Gregory]

That video would have been terrifying had Trump actually been swept into office though a revolutionary groundswell of support and not through a combination of voter apathy, voter suppression and a opposition split by progressive purity tests.

 

[CarpeDeezNutz]

Socrates was Plato's mask...

Wow I have like 3 translations of the Republic, took an honors course in philosophy and abandoned all this shit cos it just came down to old white dudes and their own philosophical framework I do not remember this part.


I fully committed to drain my brain of Sartre, Kant, Plato, Descartes and its crazy to look back at it.

 

[majik13]

According to wikipedia:



Sounds more like we're not yet a democracy, rather than close to tyranny.

An example would be aristocracy in France, which was then overthrown to be replaced by Napoleon (timocracy) which was then dismantled to be replaced by an oligarchy that persists until today, but with emerging traits of democracy.

Also it says 'Clever' Demagogue.

 

[FStubbs]

^^That's actually Sullivan in the video above.

Personally I think his argument is a little melodramatic, as he often tends to be, despite making some interesting parallels with current events. But while Trump may be of an authoritarian disposition, the conditions for him to become a tyrant don't presently exist.

In part because

-the structure of the US government doesn't allow it (the framers of the constitution themselves feared the naked majoritarianism described in classical critiques of "democracy", creating a constitutional scheme of seperate but coequal branches within a decentralized government)

-and because Trump currently lacks the widespread popular support that would be necessary to overcome such constitutional hurdles

The structure of the US government did not predict the modern Republican party - a party devoted completely to hate and to subverting every single one of those checks and balances for the purposes of absolute power. Their pursuit of power means that popular support does not matter as long as their racist, rural, heavily armed base backs them.

 

[mjp2417]

This. In fact the beginning of the Republic even mentions the fact that Socrates is now dead (and going into hell haha).

I think you actually might be thinking of Laws here which is also about defining a political architecture, is also pretty purely Platonic, and is the only one without Socrates. Socrates is still alive and the chief protagonist in The Republic. I've never read Laws so I can't say for sure, but this would be my assumption.

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Meh this video is a bit too selective and far reaching. Are theur truths in here? Sure, but these events can happen in states such as Communist China when Mao kickstarted the cultural revolution. Elites were marked, professors mocked, history burned...

The left has it's own demons to work through sure, but it will not bow down to Trump, hell even part of the right doesn't know what to do with him.

 

[jviggy43]

I think you actually might be thinking of Laws here which is also about defining a political architecture, is also pretty purely Platonic, and is the only one without Socrates. Socrates is still alive and the chief protagonist in The Republic. I've never read Laws so I can't say for sure, but this would be my assumption.

Its an allusion when they discuss going into the city (of which im blanking on the name) which was commonly thought to be the underworld. Socrates brings up not wanting to go but after some discussion agrees to head into it.

 

[David H Wong]

That video would have been terrifying had Trump actually been swept into office though a revolutionary groundswell of support and not through a combination of voter apathy, voter suppression and a opposition split by progressive purity tests.

And guys like Trump are as old as Democracy itself. It took a confluence of stupid events (including the invention of Twitter) to get him into office. His approval ratings are already historically low and his own party isn't afraid to disagree with him. If somebody wants to hijack American democracy, they'll need to be much more talented than Trump. He was just in the right place at the right time, like Trent Dilfer winning a Super Bowl ring.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

What song is it playing? I like it.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Meh this video is a bit too selective and far reaching. Are theur truths in here? Sure, but these events can happen in states such as Communist China when Mao kickstarted the cultural revolution. Elites were marked, professors mocked, history burned...

The left has it's own demons to work through sure, but it will not bow down to Trump, hell even part of the right doesn't know what to do with him.

China was an aristocracy that became a timocracy (communist rule), then an oligarchy. Ironically, a timocracy is supposed to have a government where only property owners run the government, but that was essentially how communism was in the 20th century anyway, in one form or another.

Almost the whole world right now is run by oligarchies, just with different levels of progress toward democracy. Very few countries are run by tyrants.

 

[Ishan]

I'm not that opposed to oligarchy but it has issues just like democracy and obviously the oligarchs matter.

I'm open to an oligarchy composed of scientists artists philosophers businessmen etc essentially some sort of merit based oligarchs from various fields ... But it's hard to define and form such a group .

 

[low-G]

Trump is nowhere near so swift as this. This is more the likely reaction to the likes of Trump decades from now. When the .001% control 90% of everything, won't you too want to simply seize their wealth and distribute it? That will happen. Eventually someone will rise to power and do just that. Hell, I'd probably do that.

 

[andythinkpad]

United States' two-party system is pretty poisonous toward democracy. Can you not tell that before 2016?

There is no telling that whether the America political machine can self correct itself.

If the coasts can break up peacefully and align with Canada, I have no problem with it.

 

[Ether_Snake]

I'm not that opposed to oligarchy but it has issues just like democracy and obviously the oligarchs matter.

I'm open to an oligarchy composed of scientists artists philosophers businessmen etc essentially some sort of merit based oligarchs from various fields ... But it's hard to define and form such a group .

That's more timocracy than oligarchy.

 

[SporeCrawler]

is it worth reading? yes. its a classic that any lawyer or politician, journalist should know. its probably available for free in the internet too (public domain)


is it a prediction of trump? not necessarily, it does show that certain types of government can corrupt but the rule by philosophers that platon wants seems like dictatorship to me.

That's my point. Trump and his team have adopted very similar techniques. Yes, the Nazis turned in to miltary dictatorship but OP asked if this was the end of democracy, to which I answered no, because after the reign of Hitler and WW2, the majority of the world remained democracies.

I'm not saying either that Trump is in the position to develop a dictatorship, there are checks in the branches of the US Government (see: kittenbreath's comment below), there's a microscopic chance of it happening. But it depends on what you believe? Did the Cold War ever end? Who is really pulling the strings?

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a rabbit hole. Seeing as this seems to be OPs first encounter with one of the most important political writings, I suggested that he read up on one of the last significant cases of such a thing happening.

---------

Edit: OP, the book Rise and Fall of The Third Reich is a pretty informative read. Additionally, if you want to know what would happen if a dictatorial infrastructure was suddenly swept from under the feet of citizens, leaving a vaccuum, read: The End

the weimar constitution had checks and balances too. dont expect the senate and congress that are controlled by republicans to stop the administration.

 

[PeskyToaster]

The times would have to get a lot worse to produce an American Hitler. Like actually bad instead of pretend bad.

 

[SpaceWolf]

I'm open to an oligarchy composed of scientists artists philosophers businessmen etc essentially some sort of merit based oligarchs from various fields ... But it's hard to define and form such a group.

I bet you could start one under the ocean.

 

[Elfforkusu]

My biggest concern with Trump is that the opposition to him is going to be scattershot to the point of dysfunction. When we're freaking out over everything, that's a huge amount of flexibility we're giving him to run interference with.

All he has to do is make a nonsensical tweet and it'll dominate the news cycle, while in the background the GOP plays their greatest hits in Congress and everyone is too distracted to notice.


e: on the subject of Plato, the Greek city-states were very familiar with all the ways Democracy could (and did) fail.

 

[Phased]

It's likely post WW1 Germany was always going to end up with a dictator of some sort even if it wasnt Hitler. There is simply no way to put into perspective how bad things were in that country after WW1. You simply cannot impose such brutal and unforgiving debt on a nation that it literally turns their currency into wallpaper because it's so useless.

Trump is a moron that is likely influenced by Russia somehow. That's not good, but it's a long way from fascism.

 

[Fried Food]

Gotta love that ancient world wisdom.

 

[Back-In-Black]

Why do I feel like this is not an accurate translation of Plato?

 

[Azzanadra]

George Elliot Clarke had been telling me this for a year! If only I listened.

 

[PeskyToaster]

United States' two-party system is pretty poisonous toward democracy. Can you not tell that before 2016?

There is no telling that whether the America political machine can self correct itself.

If the coasts can break up peacefully and align with Canada, I have no problem with it.

I would argue that a mulitparty system is more susceptible to extreme views and that the primary system, more so than the two party system, allowed someone like Trump to come to power.

 

[BlackLagoon]

Germany was legitimately in a terrible economic place post-WWI.

The same is not true of the United States. Hillary Clinton won counties accounting for nearly 2/3rds of the nation's GDP. (Bush/Gore was 50/50, by contrast.) She won the popular vote- the problem is that because wealth is now concentrated in Urban areas, it's screwing us up because the political system is slanted against them.

One should also remember that the beliefs and mindset of Nazi Germany did not simply spontaneously appear with Hitler, but actually had deeper roots going back to pre-WWI Imperial Germany. Obsession with racial purity, lack of respect for human life, even concentration camps and eventually full on genocide were all part of Germany's African colonial rule in the early 1900s. All carried out with the same kind of unrelenting ruthless efficiency that would make other colonial powers blush. The Nazis were well aware of this legacy, and even honored some of the perpetrators like Lothar von Trotha.

 

[Ether_Snake]

is it a prediction of trump? not necessarily, it does show that certain types of government can corrupt but the rule by philosophers that platon wants seems like dictatorship to me.

He makes silly abstractions that negate basic human traits, mainly insecurity. For example, how his guardians would share wives, as if that wouldn't lead to feelings of insecurity, betrayal, jealousy, which would disrupt the whole system pretty quick. It doesn't make any sense really.

Why do I feel like this is not an accurate translation of Plato?

Pretty sure the speaker goes from a Plato quote to his own statements seamlessly, so yeah.

 

[Messofanego]

It's likely post WW1 Germany was always going to end up with a dictator of some sort even if it wasnt Hitler. There is simply no way to put into perspective how bad things were in that country after WW1. You simply cannot impose such brutal and unforgiving debt on a nation that it literally turns their currency into wallpaper because it's so useless.

Trump is a moron that is likely influenced by Russia somehow. That's not good, but it's a long way from fascism.

Isn't proposing the stopping of protests and allowing for manslaughter of protesters one form of fascism? If it goes through, that is.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Isn't proposing the stopping of protests and allowing for manslaughter of protesters one form of fascism? If it goes through, that is.

that bit where you are allowed to kill a protestor is so duterte and its already happening in the USA..