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[Owzers]

I view everything a republican says through Romney's 47% comment. You have a subject like a large number of people receiving money from the government, but then you muddy any point you were trying to make when you lump every benefit together and THEN you decide that ONLY DEMOCRATS receive those benefits.

I believe O'Reilly was proud of Romney's comments and didn't get why people were upset at hearing "the truth" . Much like O'Reilly's talking points we are talking about now, there are shades of truth and then just gut asshole instinct to carry the idea the rest of the way.

 

[faceless007]

I don't get why it can't be both.

Every post is either a.) the white people need to stop the systemic disenfranchisement and racial profiling, etc. or b.) black kids need father figures and better role models than professional athletes and rappers and the crime rates are disproportionately high

Why not both GAF?

Because a is indirectly responsible for b?

 

[empty vessel]

I don't get why it can't be both.

Every post is either a.) the white people need to stop the systemic disenfranchisement and racial profiling, etc. or b.) black kids need father figures and better role models than professional athletes and rappers and the crime rates are disproportionately high

Why not both GAF?

Because a causes b. Stated differently, a must proceed b.

 

[jmdajr]

I don't get why it can't be both.

Every post is either a.) the white people need to stop the systemic disenfranchisement and racial profiling, etc. or b.) black kids need father figures and better role models than professional athletes and rappers and the crime rates are disproportionately high

Why not both GAF?

You need some understanding....and forgiveness. I don't see a lot of budging. Lines have been drawn.

edit: Yes I agree

 

[bonercop]

I don't get why it can't be both.

Every post is either a.) the white people need to stop the systemic disenfranchisement and racial profiling, etc. or b.) black kids need father figures and better role models than professional athletes and rappers and the crime rates are disproportionately high

Why not both GAF?

Solve A, and you solve B.

Try to solve B, while pretending A doesn't exist, and you're being a victim-blaming idiot.

 

[lil smoke]

Well it raises needed discussion, whether right or not, from whom it came from doesn't matter. Blacks have deep issues that are not being dealt with. Honest discussion is a start.

 

[bill0527]

Also, what music is O'Reilly even referring to? I don't keep up with what's really popular in rap, but does he really think guys like Jay-Z, Kanye, or Drake are "part of the problem"?

He doesnt specifically call out any artists, but he does say music that refers to gangsta culture, which glorifies misogynistic attitudes toward woman, drug use, and violence.

On the surface, I think well this is an outdated attitude. Somehow youth culture survived Elvis, The Beatles, the LSD and hippy movements of the 1970s and the cocaine fueled excess of the 1980s.

Something seems so different about this particular era and time period though. You cannot, as a parent (I have 3 kids), shield your kids and protect them from harmful messages because its in your face everywhere and there a TON of more outlets that feed this stuff than there were in decades past. You just simply can't stop it from reaching your children because there too many avenues to reach them. This wasnt a problem in decades past. You used to only have to worry about TV and the radio. You could filter your kids access to those 2 things pretty easily. Now its just impossible because you have multiple channels, radio in many forms, the Internet, tablets, smartphones, other portable devices and kids learn how to use these things starting around age 2. There's no way humanly possible to keep it from your kids, unless you move out into the country and become Amish.

 

[MisterNegative]

You need some understanding....and forgiveness. I don't see a lot of budging. Lines have been drawn.

What does this even mean ? He made a good point

I don't get why it can't be both.

Every post is either a.) the white people need to stop the systemic disenfranchisement and racial profiling, etc. or b.) black kids need father figures and better role models than professional athletes and rappers and the crime rates are disproportionately high

Why not both GAF?

A through a process of events leads to B

 

[dave is ok]

Because a is indirectly responsible for b?

How convenient

So we can't do anything about the ridiculously disproportionate crime rates because they grew up disenfranchised?

 

[Big Baybee]

How convenient

So we can't do anything about the ridiculously disproportionate crime rates because they grew up disenfranchised?

What?

 

[jmdajr]

What does this even mean ? He made a good point

I was just adding to, not refuting.

 

[dave is ok]

What?

There are many 'tomorrow' problems that need to be solved, but what about the 'today' problems? Like 500+ murders last year in Chicago?

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I live three blocks from where Bill Cosby grew up.

 

[bonercop]

How convenient

So we can't do anything about the ridiculously disproportionate crime rates because they grew up disenfranchised?

You can stop making black people grow up disenfranchised. Just saying.

 

[empty vessel]

How convenient

So we can't do anything about the ridiculously disproportionate crime rates because they grew up disenfranchised?

Correct. Crime is produced by poverty and inequality. Disproportionate crime by black people is caused by their disproportionate poverty in a highly inegalitarian society. I mean, it must be so, unless you believe that disproportionate crime by blacks is caused by their blackness.

 

[Big Baybee]

There are many 'tomorrow' problems that need to be solved, but what about the 'today' problems? Like 500+ murders last year in Chicago?

Ok, I get you now. What has attributed to the steady decline in the murder rate in Chicago over the last 20 years?

 

[jmdajr]

Ok, I get you now. What has attributed to the steady decline in the murder rate in Chicago over the last 20 years?

You know there was something I watched on Netflix that said the decline of crime was related to abortion.

Personally I'm going to say technology. Too many distractions these days, less time to be out causing trouble.

 

[Choke on the Magic]

Here's a good question; Can someone explain to me why I could get a quality public education 25 miles outside city limits, but not within city limits? It should all be the same tax dollar funding right?

A more modern example currently going on in my city (STL) is two northside schools lose acreditation recently and now have to travel 30-40 miles to attend schools outside the district so they can be in an accredited school. I don't get how this should be possible in a public educations system. This always happen in predominently black neighborhoods in STL. Why? STL metro has some charter and private schools, but no accredited public schools to my knowledge.

I live three blocks from where Bill Cosby grew up.

Are you going to say where or are you going to make me wiki it?
Philli.

 

[diehard]

Correct. Crime is produced by poverty and inequality. Disproportionate crime by black people is caused by their disproportionate poverty in a highly inegalitarian society. I mean, it must be so, unless you believe that disproportionate crime by blacks is caused by their blackness.

Aren't Hispanic and Black poverty rates very similar?

 

[bonercop]

You know there was something I watched on Netflix that said the decline of crime was related to abortion.

Personally I'm going to say technology. Too many distractions these days, less time to be out causing trouble.

There probably isn't any single one thing that caused it. Crime rates have been dropping everywhere in the past couple of decades.

 

[breakfuss]

How convenient

So we can't do anything about the ridiculously disproportionate crime rates because they grew up disenfranchised?

You know, I may slightly agree with that (though, for different reasons). Making our historical victimization the central theme of modern Black plight has proved incredibly unproductive. Things have arguably gotten worse since the 60s. I wouldn't so much attribute it to a society that "hates and fears Blacks" as I would one that understands that someone has to occupy the underclass and prisons. I think that's where a lot of the disconnect in these type of conversations comes from. A lot of (presumably white) people here are just oblivious to the privilege they're afforded. If you're not personally harboring racial prejudices, then how are yooouuuou to blame?! Vexing, I know. *deep breaths*

All the blame is on white people.* The argument that black people share responsibility for their disproportionate poverty is like assigning part of the blame for rape on the woman's decision to wear a short skirt. The person who committed the rape is in the wrong. Likewise, the people imposing disproportionate poverty on black people are in the wrong.

* I am using "white people" to refer to a specific politically aligned class consisting of mostly white people. You might know this group as "conservatives." It even contains some black people! And it does not include all white people. Basically, this is Bill O'Reilly's audience. Hence the talking points and complete denial of responsibility. This is a political group that absolutely detests accountability, so we should not be surprised by this display.

Damn, I wish I could write like this.

 

[User 406]

The thing about Cosby is that he's in a position of economic privilege. Pointing at Cosby's infamous rant and going, "See, they agree too!" is completely missing the point. A lot of people who succeed from poor origins still later fall into the easy delusion that chance had nothing to do with their success and that if everyone else would just do as they did they would be guaranteed the same success. The bootstraps argument is wrong no matter who is saying it.

And no, telling oppressed people that they wouldn't be as oppressed if they would just stop acting like an oppressed minority and meet us halfway while we're still oppressing them is not fucking helpful.

 

[Vilix]

I live three blocks from where Bill Cosby grew up.

/thread

 

[wildfire]

There a few things that bother me about Bill's rant. There are 2 things that stand out the most. One is that two of the issues he talks about are talking points within black media and discussions are talked about (disintegration of the family structure and "black on black crime"). His speech is just self serving to boost his ego and other people of his ilk because if they cared as much as they blustered like Bill did on TV they would be advancing the discussion through solution theorycrafting instead of recrimination.

The second is that he did a rant in general. He was right up there with everyone else who was offended for Obama using aggressive tones with Romney during the debates. This is behavior that goes beyond being a Republican. There is just a human failing to listen to people because they sound like an ass and disrespectful. Bill "knows" better but since he doesn't give a shit he'll still be an ass and be smug asshole who is satisfied with telling people off instead of helping them.

Correct. Crime is produced by poverty and inequality. Disproportionate crime by black people is caused by their disproportionate poverty in a highly inegalitarian society. I mean, it must be so, unless you believe that disproportionate crime by blacks is caused by their blackness.

This notion is being challenged by worldwide crime rates dropping. Even though the recession should've created an uptick in crime all over the world crim still kept dropping aside from a few countries in specific crimes.

Understanding how much poverty matters in the face of new technological advancements and improvements on standards is becoming very complicated.

 

[Deified Data]

I remember when they blamed rock music. And jazz.

Hmm, what is the connection...

And yo if you want the poors to stop cranking out babies maaaaaaybe offer better sexual health services to these communities.

Yes, please! You can't decry what you perceive as a "welfare queen" phenomenon while simultaneously opposing easy access to abortion and contraception.

Well...you can if you exist in an echo chamber and run no risk of being outed as a hypocrite.

 

[Omegasquash]

For those who can't watch, synopsis -

- Martin was targetted because of his appearance. Not necessarily his skin tone, but his attire.
- It was wrong for Zimmerman to confront Martin based on Martin's appearance, but it was understandable because Martin's appearance was congruent with the appearance of "street criminals".
- Young black men commit homicide at a rate 10 times higher than hispanics and whites combined.
- The problem is the disintegration of the African American family.
- 73% of African American babies born out of wedlock. Sons grow up resentful.
- We need Sharpton to do an ad telling black girls to avoid getting pregnant.
- White people don't force black people to get pregnant.
- The entertainment industry encourages this behavior by promoting "gangsta" culture.

One hell of a ride.

I know we've come some distance from this post, but my god.

This guy know's exactly what he's doing. Pandering to an audience by presenting the with "facts" that reinforce stereotypes, all of which are, or stem from, a defensive place. How anyone can agree with what the man says is beyond me.

 

[Buzzati]

Correct. Crime is produced by poverty and inequality. Disproportionate crime by black people is caused by their disproportionate poverty in a highly inegalitarian society. I mean, it must be so, unless you believe that disproportionate crime by blacks is caused by their blackness.

Charles Murray wrote a beloved book about this.

 

[mckmas8808]

Why do black people think that Cosby is an ass for saying those things?

Because first he sounded like an old man yelling at clouds. Second because it was he wasn't looking at the situation in a realistic manner. His solutions were way to simplistic. Some of what Bill said was true, but alot of stupid simple-minded statements (a comparable example would be blaming video games on mass school shootings.)

 

[APF]

Since birthrates are actually declining, maybe hoodies and rap are actually the heroes here.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/ar...ut-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/

 

[mckmas8808]

Nas fans like to forget about The Firm, but it really happened.

So why are more Italian kids becoming gangstas after this huge hit?

 

[breakfuss]

So why are more Italian kids becoming gangstas after this huge hit?

I get what you're saying, but do you feel there's no room to consider the effects music/media might be having? You think that's a completely fallacious argument? Can you honestly make a 1:1 comparison with how Whites are not only portrayed in the media, but how they consume it?

 

[APF]

I get what you're saying, but, do you feel there's no room to consider the effects music/media might be having? You think that's a completely fallacious argument?

What is your evidence to support your claim of there being an effect?

 

[Shake Appeal]

The thing about Cosby is that he's in a position of economic privilege. Pointing at Cosby's infamous rant and going, "See, they agree too!" is completely missing the point. A lot of people who succeed from poor origins still later fall into the easy delusion that chance had nothing to do with their success and that if everyone else would just do as they did they would be guaranteed the same success. The bootstraps argument is wrong no matter who is saying it.

The Oprah Winfrey chapter in Packer's The Unwinding is an excellent example of this point.

 

[zero shift]

I don't get why it can't be both.

Every post is either a.) the white people need to stop the systemic disenfranchisement and racial profiling, etc. or b.) black kids need father figures and better role models than professional athletes and rappers and the crime rates are disproportionately high

Why not both GAF?

Because one often causes the other. Kids often don't come home to parents because single mother is working 12 hours per day. While I'm sure to a point some of this is caused by "black culture" as poor white communities aren't as bad as these statistics. But poor white communities haven't been plagued with disfranchisement for hundreds of years.

Aren't Hispanic and Black poverty rates very similar?

The problem is that many of the Hispanics are immigrants. With immigration you essentially weed out many of the poor, disenfranchised, and unmotivated people from their respective lands. Just compare the disparity of Puerto Rican homicides in the US mainland vs the island.

 

[breakfuss]

What is your evidence to support your claim of there being an effect?

I never claimed there was an effect. All I'm saying is that whichever side of the debate you fall on, it isn't useful to make comparisons to a group of people whose media representation is vastly different. Consumption habits are also different.

The Oprah Winfrey chapter in Packer's The Unwinding is an excellent example of this point.

Good book.

 

[APF]

Consumption habits are also different.

IIRC something like 70% of rap listeners are white kids.

 

[Dash27]

I know we've come some distance from this post, but my god.

This guy know's exactly what he's doing. Pandering to an audience by presenting the with "facts" that reinforce stereotypes, all of which are, or stem from, a defensive place. How anyone can agree with what the man says is beyond me.

Can you explain this more. OReilly may be over the top but I find the stats on homicide and out of wedlock births pretty compelling. If only because it likely stems from and perpetuates poverty. The disintegration of the family goes back at least to Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action

Anyway I dont claim to have the answers. It seems like one end of the spectrum blames culture and the other racism. I'm guessing they are both right to a degree. I would also say he's right about the dialogue never actually happening.

 

[mckmas8808]

I get what you're saying, but do you feel there's no room to consider the effects music/media might be having? You think that's a completely fallacious argument? Can you honestly make a 1:1 comparison with how Whites are not only portrayed in the media, but how they consume it?

I don't think there's much effects at all. If so then why blame rap music and the hip-hop culture. Here's the thing.....since hip hop became popular black teenage pregnancy has been falling nation wide.

Yet many people will acknowledge (myself included) that rappers make many women look terrible (when it comes to showing them as sex symbols). So how can the two happen within the same 20+ year time period.

 

[empty vessel]

The problem is that many of the Hispanics are immigrants. With immigration you essentially weed out many of the poor, disenfranchised, and unmotivated people from their respective lands. Just compare the disparity of Puerto Rican homicides in the US mainland vs the island.

Yep, the black immigrant community does extremely well in comparison with the African-American community and, I assume, on par with whites. These are social problems that we've collectively created and the onus is on us collectively to solve them. The surest path to solving them is by creating stable environments for everybody, especially the poor who are in most dire need of stability. That means access to health care and day care, labor protections, affordable housing in mixed communities, among other things. At that point, you don't even need to worry about education other than maintaining the US's generally exceptional public education system, because it will take care of itself. What's missing isn't money or other support for public education. What's missing is children with stable environments from schools, especially urban schools.

And if you're one who thinks that the disintegration of the family is part of the problem, this, too, is solved by creating stability in people's lives.

 

[steveovig]

So basically O'Reilly is Bill McNeil now?

 

[Omegasquash]

I get what you're saying, but do you feel there's no room to consider the effects music/media might be having? You think that's a completely fallacious argument? Can you honestly make a 1:1 comparison with how Whites are not only portrayed in the media, but how they consume it?

In the same way that I don't consider that games have an effect on kids/young adults, I don't feel like music does either. Just my $0.02, however.

 

[mckmas8808]

Can you explain this more. OReilly may be over the top but I find the stats on homicide and out of wedlock births pretty compelling. If only because it likely stems from and perpetuates poverty. The disintegration of the family goes back at least to Daniel Patrick Moynihan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family:_The_Case_For_National_Action

Anyway I dont claim to have the answers. It seems like one end of the spectrum blames culture and the other racism. I'm guessing they are both right to a degree. I would also say he's right about the dialogue never actually happening.

But again me and many others are trying to explain that it's NOT the "culture". There's no culture that says to not be a dad. More out of wedlock births are happening percentage wise because less black married women are having kids.

 

[Mumei]

How convenient

So we can't do anything about the ridiculously disproportionate crime rates because they grew up disenfranchised?

It's actually really inconvenient.

 

[mightynine]

For those who can't watch, synopsis -

- Martin was targetted because of his appearance. Not necessarily his skin tone, but his attire.
- It was wrong for Zimmerman to confront Martin based on Martin's appearance, but it was understandable because Martin's appearance was congruent with the appearance of "street criminals".
- Young black men commit homicide at a rate 10 times higher than hispanics and whites combined.
- The problem is the disintegration of the African American family.
- 73% of African American babies born out of wedlock. Sons grow up resentful.
- We need Sharpton to do an ad telling black girls to avoid getting pregnant.
- White people don't force black people to get pregnant.
- The entertainment industry encourages this behavior by promoting "gangsta" culture.

One hell of a ride.

Grey hoodie, khaki pants, nice pair of sneakers. Yep, must be a hoodlum!

 

[unchained]

Just want to say while there are some questionable post here. Gaf has come a long way since the San Andreas reveal. Thank go for the intelligent conversation this thread has been a good read for the most part.

 

[breakfuss]

IIRC something like 70% of rap listeners are white kids.

Ok? White people are probably 70+% of the listeners for every genre, lol. A better question to pose is what percentage of White/Black kids exclusively listen to rap? And while we're at it, what percentage of rappers are White/Black? Who is carrying the majority the of vile imagery in hip-hop? I'd venture a guess that most White kids aren't hearing the stuff and internalizing it. You'll never catch me blaming hip-hop for societal ills (hellloo,my avatar), but to ignore its influence seems bogus.

I don't think there's much effects at all. If so then why blame rap music and the hip-hop culture. Here's the thing.....since hip hop became popular black teenage pregnancy has been falling nation wide.

Yet many people will acknowledge (myself included) that rappers make many women look terrible (when it comes to showing them as sex symbols). So how can the two happen within the same 20+ year time period.

Again, not blaming rap. And, my concern with its content isn't limited to how it handles sex and women. The promotion of violence and social deviancy is my biggest beef. The lack of diverse views within the mainstream culture is something hip-hop heads have been complaining about for years, so why do people get defensive when Bill O'Reilly points it out?

In the same way that I don't consider that games have an effect on kids/young adults, I don't feel like music does either. Just my $0.02, however.

Using a cause/effect model is far too simplistic, so you're right to reject it. What some are suggesting is that a segment of hip-hop re-enforces pre-existing, harmful notions that Blacks not only feel about themselves, but society at large carries as well. It obviously isn't the cause of drug dealing/usage and violence (among other things), but it undeniably sanctions and promotes it. If we're strictly on the subject of "music", I'd argue that it's the most pervasive form of media. Video games certainly aren't as ubiquitous, and to an extent, require active participation. Even if you disagree with that, Hip-hop culture has become far more than music. It's everywhere - tv, film, magazines. Most people would accept these that these things contribute to our purview in other respects, but somehow hip-hop listeners are impervious to such influence?

 

[APF]

You'll never catch me blaming hip-hop for societal ills (hellloo,my avatar), but to ignore its influence seems bogus.

But you haven't provided a single ounce of objective evidence or statistics supporting your claim.

 

[Gotchaye]

This isn't really my area, but it seems to me that there's a huge difference between some random old black man, Bill Cosby and Bill O'Reilly saying similar things (Oxford comma left out for clarity). Everyone can recognize that there's a problem. But the sorts of solutions it makes sense for you to advocate depend on which people are actually listening to you. I don't know that it's really about having first-hand experience so much as it's about the potential of certain kinds of speech to actually be damaging to your cause (assuming you actually care).

If you're talking to young black people, and no one else, then it makes a lot of sense to focus on what young black people can do to make things better. Maybe it makes sense to couch this in "show them they're wrong about you" language or maybe it makes sense to couch this in "don't be stupid" language. It's not crazy to think that the rest of the country just doesn't care and isn't going to help, so the only way for black people to do better is for them to just be better people than anyone else. This is the "random old black man" case.

Bill Cosby's borderline, though. He has a platform. He's not just going around and talking to black people. Every time Cosby says "this is what black people need to change to make their problems better" he makes it a lot easier for everyone else to avoid responsibility. When someone suggests an anti-poverty program and someone else references Cosby to argue that this is the wrong way to solve problems, Cosby is doing real harm. At the same time, at least at one point he enjoyed an awful lot of respect among black people, and he might have done good as well.

O'Reilly is just a racist. No black person is going to be persuaded by what he's saying - almost no black people will ever even be aware that he's said it. That's simply not the point; O'Reilly isn't talking to black people. He's talking to his almost entirely white audience, and the function of his remarks is to give reasons against remedies that might require sacrifices from white people. He's saying that the problem isn't anything his audience can help solve; only black people can solve it. So his audience shouldn't be sympathetic to arguments that they ought to be doing more, and should feel free to be critical of black people who aren't doing enough.

 

[mckmas8808]

Again, not blaming rap. And, my concern with its content isn't limited to how it handles sex and women. The promotion of violence and social deviancy is my biggest beef. The lack of diverse views within the mainstream culture is something hip-hop heads have been complaining about for years, so why do people get defensive when Bill O'Reilly points it out?



Using a cause/effect model is far too simplistic, so you're right to reject it. What some are suggesting is that a segment of hip-hop re-enforces pre-existing, harmful notions that Blacks not only feel about themselves, but society at large carries as well. It obviously isn't the cause of drug dealing/usage and violence (among other things), but it undeniably sanctions and promotes it. If we're strictly on the subject of "music", I'd argue that it's the most pervasive form of media. Video games certainly aren't as ubiquitous, and to an extent, require active participation. Even if you disagree with that, Hip-hop culture has become far more than music. It's everywhere - tv, film, magazines. Most people would accept these that these things contribute to our purview in other respects, but somehow hip-hop listeners are impervious to such influence?

Because Bill O is making a cause-effect relationship with rap music and homicides. 99% of hip-hop heads aren't making that point. They just want more diverse rap music on the radio and on TV. Nothing wrong with that.

But it's 2 complete different points.

 

[empty vessel]

This isn't really my area, but it seems to me that there's a huge difference between some random old black man, Bill Cosby and Bill O'Reilly saying similar things (Oxford comma left out for clarity). Everyone can recognize that there's a problem. But the sorts of solutions it makes sense for you to advocate depend on which people are actually listening to you. I don't know that it's really about having first-hand experience so much as it's about the potential of certain kinds of speech to actually be damaging to your cause (assuming you actually care).

If you're talking to young black people, and no one else, then it makes a lot of sense to focus on what young black people can do to make things better. Maybe it makes sense to couch this in "show them they're wrong about you" language or maybe it makes sense to couch this in "don't be stupid" language. It's not crazy to think that the rest of the country just doesn't care and isn't going to help, so the only way for black people to do better is for them to just be better people than anyone else. This is the "random old black man" case.

Bill Cosby's borderline, though. He has a platform. He's not just going around and talking to black people. Every time Cosby says "this is what black people need to change to make their problems better" he makes it a lot easier for everyone else to avoid responsibility. When someone suggests an anti-poverty program and someone else references Cosby to argue that this is the wrong way to solve problems, Cosby is doing real harm. At the same time, at least at one point he enjoyed an awful lot of respect among black people, and he might have done good as well.

O'Reilly is just a racist. No black person is going to be persuaded by what he's saying - almost no black people will ever even be aware that he's said it. That's simply not the point; O'Reilly isn't talking to black people. He's talking to his almost entirely white audience, and the function of his remarks is to give reasons against remedies that might require sacrifices from white people. He's saying that the problem isn't anything his audience can help solve; only black people can solve it. So his audience shouldn't be sympathetic to arguments that they ought to be doing more, and should feel free to be critical of black people who aren't doing enough.

Great post.