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[kruis]

I always find it funny some are so against Israel in the conflict, especially living in America where we stole the land outright and put people reservations trying to tell Israel and Palestine how they should deal with their issues.

I'm not happy with a lot of Israel's actions, but they aren't the only one causing conflict in that area. They actively have countries surrounding them who would kill everyone in the country if they thought they had the means or ability to get away with it.

On the topic of Thom's remarks, he has every right to play there for his fans. People acting like BDS is a good strategy that has an effect other than trying to deprive honest citizens of Israel are misleading themselves.

Yep. I support Radiohead's decision to play in Israel. In my book artists play are free to play shows wherever on earth, whether it's in the EU, the US, Russia, China, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Colombia, Zimbabwe or even fucking North Korea. For all it's problems, Israel is a still a shining beacon of light compared to the whole of the Middle East when it comes to freedom of expression and diversity.

 

[emag]

Yep. I support Radiohead's decision to play in Israel. In my book artists play are free to play shows wherever on earth, whether it's in the EU, the US, Russia, China, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Colombia, Zimbabwe or even fucking North Korea.

And, presumably, others are free to criticize Radiohead. Which is all that's happening here.

For all it's problems, Israel is a still a shining beacon of light compared to the whole of the Middle East when it comes to freedom of expression and diversity.

Even putting aside the Palestinian and Bedouin situation for a moment (which is akin to putting aside slavery and women's suffrage in antebellum America), the legalized discrimination against non-white and/or non-Jewish Israeli citizens belies that statement. Israel is a shining beacon of technological, economic, and military/special ops prowess in the region, but that has little to do with freedom of expression or diversity.

That myth and the one about its neighbors chomping at the bit to attack are destructive to any meaningful discourse on Israel, both within and without.

 

[GuessWho]

Fuck the BDS.

 

[Griss]

I disagree with Thom here but he's perfectly entitled to his opinion, to play where he likes and to express his political views as he likes. BDS is a very complicated moral argument with reasonable arguments on both sides.

As for me, I take the view of this excellent guardian article here, "The real reason the Israel - Palestine peace process always fails" which is that until the negatives of outside pressure from the international community outweighs the positives of Israel keeping the status quo, there will never be any rational reason for them to change. Ergo it's our duty to put pressure on them in order to effect change - that is, if we believe that what is happening to Palestinians is morally reprehensible, which I do. Since our governments refuse to put any real pressure on, we can do so on an individual level as best we can.

The article explains it all far better than a simple man like me ever could, and it's not actually about BDS at all, doesn't even mention it. But what it describes does support a moral case for BDS, in my view.

But I'm no enemy of people who are anti-BDS, like I say it's a incredibly fraught and complicated argument.

 

[Xun]

I'm a massive Radiohead fan, but I unfortunately disagree with Thom here.

He means well though.

 

[Kickz]

But it's cool if they play in the US, right? Despite Donald Trump and the Republican menace being a danger to the entire world. Seems like a convenient line to draw. Pretty amazing that people like Thurston Moore think we still have any kind of moral high ground at this point.

We're not practicing apartheid

 

[old manatee]

We're not practicing apartheid

Look at the racial disparity in incarceration rates in the US and tell me with a straight face that we should be telling musicians from other countries where it is immoral to play a guitar.

 

[Madouu]

I am happy that he plays for his fans in Israel and I have no problems with that but I am immensely disappointed by what he has written.

 

[Messofanego]

Fuck the BDS.

This is not a surprising sentiment coming from you fervently defending Israel ever since 2006 here, being so hateful towards even a peaceful protest.

 

[Griss]

I am happy that he plays for his fans in Israel and I have no problems with that but I am immensely disappointed by what he has written.

What do you find disappointing about it? Genuine question.

It reads like he's just upset that people have assumed that they didn't put any thought into this and are ignorant of what's going on, rather than what happened - they put thought into it and are quite educated as to the whole situation and simply came to the opposite conclusion of those criticising them.

Once that happens petitions and banners at their shows etc are ultimately patronising. As I said, I'm pro BDS but I see where he's coming from here.

 

[Madouu]

What do you find disappointing about it? Genuine question.

It reads like he's just upset that people have assumed that they didn't put any thought into this and are ignorant of what's going on, rather than what happened - they put thought into it and are quite educated as to the whole situation and simply came to the opposite conclusion of those criticising them.

Once that happens petitions and banners at their shows etc are ultimately patronising. As I said, I'm pro BDS but I see where he's coming from here.

The issue for me is that he hasn't shown that he is knowledgeable of the situation at all in his post. It comes off as an easy way to shut off criticism. If you are going to rebutt the talks about apartheid then I would've at least liked to hear good arguments. To be clear, I am not saying he is not educated on the subject, I am purely talking about this post here.

Once again, if he just said that he wanted to play for his fans then I would have no issues with it. Or even of he expressed his opinions, any opinion, in a more solid fashion than my friends are Israeli and from Palestine, it would also fine. As it stands, it's just disappointing.

I understand that he might not like how condescending people can be to him but I can't help but think reacting in the same way isn't helpful either.

 

[Obscura]

don't forget Israel is also a state where a mainstream politician (Miri Regev) can say that African migrants are a "cancer" and 52% of Israeli Jews agree with her (according to the Israel Democracy Institute). 33% agree with violence against African migrants. also don't forget the forced sterilizations of black people etc..

so yeah.. bye Thom.

This real or bullshit?

 

[emag]

This real or bullshit?

Absolutely real, and only uncovered/condemned a few years ago. The treatment of non-white Jews in Israel is disgusting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...opian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

 

[Kalnos]

"When the Left Turns on Its Own"

 

[Griss]

The issue for me is that he hasn't shown that he is knowledgeable of the situation at all in his post. It comes off as an easy way to shut off criticism. If you are going to rebutt the talks about apartheid then I would've at least liked to hear good arguments. To be clear, I am not saying he is not educated on the subject, I am purely talking about this post here.

Once again, if he just said that he wanted to play for his fans then I would have no issues with it. Or even of he expressed his opinions, any opinion, in a more solid fashion than my friends are Israeli and from Palestine, it would also fine. As it stands, it's just disappointing.

I understand that he might not like how condescending people can be to him but I can't help but think reacting in the same way isn't helpful either.

Okay, fair enough, but I don't think he wants to have this pro/anti-BDS argument in public. I think his whole point is that people know the arguments for and against BDS, and once Radiohead announced a show in Israel it should have been clear which side they came down on. Therefore he's focusing on the issue of people trying to change a decision they've already made, assuming they were ignorant of the issues while making it.

Nigel Godrich interjects in that part of the interview:

"I don't believe in cultural boycotts. I don't think they're positive, ever. And actually, I think that it's true to say that the people you'd be denying [the music] are the people who would agree with you and don't necessarily agree with their government. So it's not a good idea. Thom and Roger are two peas in a pod, really, in certain respects. They just have a disagreement about this, but they've never even met. I think Thom feels very protective of Jonny, which I completely get. But I'm not in the middle of Thom and Roger. Fucking hell, I wouldn't like to be in the middle of those two. No.

...which both gives reasons why they wouldn't do BDS as well as suggesting that ultimately Jonny's personal life may have been a huge part of why the rest of them made the decision they did. And those kinds of interpersonal factors are important. And that's the context of the comment about Jonny's wife. It's not just a lame "We have friends from the region so our decision must be informed and correct", it's "There are some interpersonal reasons for the decision we made that factored into it."

I don't think Thom is interested in making these points in public and starting a running dialogue. There are better people to hash this stuff out, after all. Ultimately he's a musician.

 

[uncelestial]

The six day war happened and the IDF drove Egypt from the Gaza strip - I have not claimed otherwise. However, saying that Gaza drove out Egypt would be a poor representation of the facts considering that the reasonable use of the word Gaza in the context of this discussion either refer to the geographical area Gaza or to the idea of a Palestinian politically controlled entity/representation in Gaza.

That's a fair point; pre-defining the area as "Gaza" is probably a mistake on my part.

Personally I do not think that the map is of importance for this discussion. However, I was also not the one who decided to post this poor excuse for a data comparison visualised as a sequence of maps. That was you.

The maps generalize which areas were settled by indigenous Arabs and which were settled by Jewish people. It's a demographic history. You want to point out that, historically, these territories have passed hands between Egypt and Israel before becoming self-governing Palestinian territories. That's very much missing the point of the map, which show the demographic shifts inherent when Israel swooped in and expelled indigenous people from their own land, re-entry being the point of the "right of return" you hate so much.

Personally I think it's a pathetic attempt to dismiss the humanitarian abuses of Israel and the plight of indigenous Arabs by getting pedantic about the fact that so and so block of land was briefly called Sinai during the gap between such and such war and such and such accord/treaty. Your language about "right of return" coupled with your focus on statehood rather than demographics -- the point of the map -- is what I have a problem with.

So you're bassicaly pro-current situation continuing indefinitely. Because realistically that;'s the only alternative. Israel will never allow jews to become minority in their country. it's just not going to happen.

No, I'm not pro-current situation, because you're jumping twenty steps ahead with no basis or even an actual argument beyond your bare-assed proclamation. Integration of Arabs as Israeli citizens, tearing down the West Bank Barrier, and letting people live where they want to live is a valid alternative to the heartbreak and inhumanity inherent in Israel enforcing separation of ethnicities and religions using the power of their military. Period. I know that 76% percent of Israelis want there to be two states so the nasty indigenous Arabs will stay "over there" but that isn't fucking working so great, is it?

Gaza kicked the Egyptians out in 1967 ? Please tell me more, this must have been censored from everything I've ever read. Who led this expulsion, was it by force or by agreement ?

Israel reclaimed Gaza in 1967 during the Six Days War. I'm sorry you missed it.

 

[Republic of Ezo]

I'm no fan of Israeli policy and think the occupied territories should be returned but this map is really disingenuous. It was Ottoman land in 1897, not Palestinian land, and it had been Ottoman/Egyptian land for the last 600 years. Blame the British, who promised the Arabs a state in exchange for rising against the Ottomans while simultaneously promising the Jews a state.

 

[Particle Physicist]

The maps generalize which areas were settled by indigenous Arabs and which were settled by Jewish people. It's a demographic history. You want to point out that, historically, these territories have passed hands between Egypt and Israel before becoming self-governing Palestinian territories. That's very much missing the point of the map, which show the demographic shifts inherent when Israel swooped in and expelled indigenous people from their own land, re-entry being the point of the "right of return" you hate so much.

It's absolutely wrong though. The initial map is completely green showing 100% Palestinian settlement/demographics, ignoring the fact that Jews there were considered Palestinians at that time. Look at actual census data for specific locations would show you this.


The next map shows Jewish land versus everything else rather than Jewish settled land versus Palestinian/Muslim settled land. A huge portion of the southern part of the land is all desert and unsettled. It's an incredibly disingenuous comparison.

 

[Obscura]

Absolutely real, and only uncovered/condemned a few years ago. The treatment of non-white Jews in Israel is disgusting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...opian-jews-without-their-consent-8468800.html

Thank you for the link.

Seeing as how I'm a stupid person I won't go on the rant I would like to but... Jesus fucking christ, man...

 

[Bulby]

That'd be understandable if Bibi is the only person in Israel carrying out the apartheid but it's a significant amount more, and the amount of Israelis in favour of IDF and it all.

But mostly we are talking about a bunch of kids who want to rock out for 90 minutes.

 

[astroturfing]

Yep. I support Radiohead's decision to play in Israel. In my book artists play are free to play shows wherever on earth, whether it's in the EU, the US, Russia, China, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Colombia, Zimbabwe or even fucking North Korea. For all it's problems, Israel is a still a shining beacon of light compared to the whole of the Middle East when it comes to freedom of expression and diversity.

shining beacon of diversity yeah sure.. when 52% of Israeli Jews agree that unauthorized African migrants are a cancer, i'm not sure i'd use that kind of terminology.

besides, even if Israel was internally a heavenly place to live for all people, how does that justify its aggressive external behavior towards Palestinians? i mean, there have been plenty of nations in world history that treat their own citizens just fine while their armies were brutalizing others...

 

[MisterFalcon]

Israel reclaimed Gaza in 1967 during the Six Days War. I'm sorry you missed it.

I knew that but your claim seemed to be that 'Gaza' somehow expelled the Egyptians. That would be the first time I heard of any such attempt, the All-Palestine Goverment and PLO both accepted Egyptian rule over Gaza and sought to establish their Palestinian state only on Israeli territory.

 

[ECC]

That's a fair point; pre-defining the area as "Gaza" is probably a mistake on my part.


The maps generalize which areas were settled by indigenous Arabs and which were settled by Jewish people. It's a demographic history. You want to point out that, historically, these territories have passed hands between Egypt and Israel before becoming self-governing Palestinian territories. That's very much missing the point of the map, which show the demographic shifts inherent when Israel swooped in and expelled indigenous people from their own land, re-entry being the point of the "right of return" you hate so much.

Personally I think it's a pathetic attempt to dismiss the humanitarian abuses of Israel and the plight of indigenous Arabs by getting pedantic about the fact that so and so block of land was briefly called Sinai during the gap between such and such war and such and such accord/treaty. Your language about "right of return" coupled with your focus on statehood rather than demographics -- the point of the map -- is what I have a problem with.



No, I'm not pro-current situation, because you're jumping twenty steps ahead with no basis or even an actual argument beyond your bare-assed proclamation. Integration of Arabs as Israeli citizens, tearing down the West Bank Barrier, and letting people live where they want to live is a valid alternative to the heartbreak and inhumanity inherent in Israel enforcing separation of ethnicities and religions using the power of their military. Period. I know that 76% percent of Israelis want there to be two states so the nasty indigenous Arabs will stay "over there" but that isn't fucking working so great, is it?



Israel reclaimed Gaza in 1967 during the Six Days War. I'm sorry you missed it.

Okay - you have now managed to illustrate exactly how unsuited you are for debating this topic. I have NOT said anything about the right of return in this thread. On top of this your posts have had issues with accuracy just as they ascribe motivations and thought patterns to other people's posts. All of this demonstrates that you should not debate the topic until you can at least manage to communicate about it in a reasonable way.

I think you have managed to misunderstand just about everything I have written. Your standpoint is that these maps correspond to some demographic timeline, reduced to a binary Palestinian / Jewish people option. My standpoint is that the data underlying those maps mean that they can not be a representation of who settled where. I would also add that the supporting text surrounding the map also doesn't support your claim.

Furthermore, you manage to (again) ascribe motives to me that I do not have about why I want correct data for your claims. I do not appreciate this and I find it obscene that you can argue this way and feel good about yourself.

However, since you are so concerned with my motives and why I want clean, properly contextualized data I will tell you: Personally I think one of the big obstacles for any progress in this conflict is the ridiculous amount of very low-quality data, unsubstantiated claims and poor understanding of the history of the conflict on both sides. It leads to discussions without any base in reality, and thus no actual progress.

If you want to make a point about the change in demographics across the landmass you are much better served with census data and a few charts, that would illustrate the demographic change over time clearly. On the other hand, if you want to illustrate who had control of a given area at a given time maps are the way to go - but then they should at least be accurate. The original picture of the maps mixes and matches between many data types and end up making none of the points very well, interesting and valid as they may be.

 

[spineduke]

Whatever point you're trying to make, its lost in all the combative accusations. I gave up halfway through reading that.

 

[Messofanego]

But mostly we are talking about a bunch of kids who want to rock out for 90 minutes.

You can't divorce these kids from where they're living and under what government.

 

[C4Lukins]

You can't divorce these kids from where they're living and under what government.

True. They are even more deserving of a great rock concert considering the horror surrounding them.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

This is propaganda. The BDS movement isn't opposed to the existence of Israel, but ongoing oppression and land seizure by Israeli settlers which has not been condemned by their government. To say that Arab states in 2017 want to kill all Israelis is absurd and ignorant. Since 1973, Israel has been the aggressor in every conflict involving Arab states. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 and in 2006, and now gives medical aid to jihadists trying to overthrow the Syrian government.

The problem with Israel isn't so much that it was founded on an unjust conquest, but that Israel continues to oppress its indigenous population and violate international attempts at peace.

Finally, a well thought out and honest post in this thread.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Instead of boycotting Israel, he should go there, play, and then make a statement about the occupation. That's the best way to change minds. Not going there doesn't achieve anything.

I kind of like this idea, I'd say go there, and be extra preachy and political to the fans/crowd, educate them a little, show them the other side of the coin. Get right in thier faces, criticize the actions of the Israeli government. Make them feel guilty, who cares if they boo and throw stuff on the stage. This may make me sound like I'm being all sarcastic, but I honestly think going there, giving a concert while being equally vocal for BDS is a better choice than not going there at all.

Israeli doctors are just like other doctors (yeah Jews are just like real people!) and won't turn away people need (including Palestinians) and now it's getting spun that they're trying to have a military impact in Syria? I've heard everything else in this thread before but that is indeed a new one. Wow.

Dude, if you think Israel has no vast interest in toppling Assad and replacing Syrian government with a pro Westen one: You should read up on four decades of Israel's involvement in the Lebanese civil war.