uncelestial
Member
If you want to quibble with the map, fine, but saying "Palestine was never a real state" is bullshit.
Thom Yorke breaks silence on controversy over Radiohead playing in Israel
- Thread starter uncelestial
- Start date
If you want to quibble with the map, fine, but saying "Palestine was never a real state" is bullshit.
In other words, "I'm not ignorant of the issues, I have Palestinian friends."
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Or you're just not omniscient.
This is propaganda. The BDS movement isn't opposed to the existence of Israel, but ongoing oppression and land seizure by Israeli settlers which has not been condemned by their government. To say that Arab states in 2017 want to kill all Israelis is absurd and ignorant. Since 1973, Israel has been the aggressor in every conflict involving Arab states. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 and in 2006, and now gives medical aid to jihadists trying to overthrow the Syrian government.
The problem with Israel isn't so much that it was founded on an unjust conquest, but that Israel continues to oppress its indigenous population and violate international attempts at peace.
So much this. I disagree with the BDS movement but would also like more artists supporting the opressed publicly.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
No its not. There was no government. Heads of state. Etc. The region was called Palestine. Can you explain with sources how there was a state/country of Palestine at the time?
It's also not just a quibble because the map is supposed to illicit an emotional response and it's based on very misleading information.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
Instead of actually engaging, you respond with a Gotcha statement. Cool, whatever.
The context of that statement implies a deflection of criticism about specific issues. Thom was directly responding to people who said that they know nothing of the situation, most of them are in fact White Western people. Knowing people from a diverse set of countries, who have lived a wider range of experiences and are not Western White people is actually beneficial.
I personally don't find this specific statement, in this context, to be bad.
If Thom would have claimed that he was an expert because he had Palestinian friends, that would be a bad thing to say. Thom is responding to people who think they somehow know any better, despite the fact they are white and come from a Western country.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Could you explain? Not sure I understand.
Israeli doctors are just like other doctors (yeah Jews are just like real people!) and won't turn away people need (including Palestinians) and now it's getting spun that they're trying to have a military impact in Syria? I've heard everything else in this thread before but that is indeed a new one. Wow.
That they might be unaware of some issue in said country. Even then it depends if that issue would be something a band should boycott or not in that person's eye.
For example Russia's treatment of LGBT especially in the last few years. I used the band Placebo as an example on the first page. I was sort of surprised that they were ok with touring in that country after things got a little rougher for the LGBT community. They decided that they would not boycott. If they did I would understand, but they feel comfortable playing there. As a fan of the band myself I don't have any strong feeling towards their decision but I would understand if they chose to not play there while understanding them continuing to play shows in Russia.
Pretty sure it's the Palestinians that are getting thrown under the bus.
Absoultely agree with the bolded. Still not convinced what he said is any different than what I posted.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
I see. In that case--a person being keenly aware of the crimes of Israel but completely unaware of, and uninterested in the arguably worse crimes of those other countries--I would say that person lives in a dangerous bubble. I would recommend raising the standard of their knowledge rather than taking immediate (possibly misdirected) action.
Deserted Maniac Island
Member
What he said was directed at people who are trying to "educate" them, in his opinion at least. Thom was upset because this undermined and neglected their personal connections to people in Israel. He's not excusing his actions, as much as he's criticizing people who project their ideas about Radiohead.
This is the way I read the statement, but I can see your perspective.
Listen, I'm a pretty reasonable person - so I will try to address this in a reasonable manner. That being said I would appreciate it if you didn't try to "interpret" what I write since you are doing a pretty poor job of it.
1. Nowhere have I denied the existence of Palestine. So, please do not say that I do. I have pointed out that the sequence of maps are inconsistent and that if you want the maps to denote who held/governed an area at any given time then you need to correct them.
2. I am not babbling so please try to read what I actually write. The map denotes the period 1948 to 1949. Gaza was under Egyptian control at this time. The west bank was Jordanian. Secondarily, saying that Gaza kicked out Egypt in 1967 is "alternative news" level facts.
Regardless of your standpoint, the debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is desperately in need of historically correct facts and not this Trumpian version of facts.
I see that the myth about arabs wanting to kill all the jews and throw them into the sea is alive and kicking
LinkAndEpona
Banned
I agree with his statements as well.
uncelestial
Member
I'm not "interpreting" anything - you are posting absolute pap.
Cool, I'll let everyone know that the Six Day war never happened. I'm sure Egypt will be stoked to have Gaza back. Those IDF forces have been claiming a never-happened victory for way too long. Thanks for setting the record straight with your totally accurate facts that are really important and interesting.
adamsappel
Member
I ain't gonna play Sun City.
The six day war happened and the IDF drove Egypt from the Gaza strip - I have not claimed otherwise. However, saying that Gaza drove out Egypt would be a poor representation of the facts considering that the reasonable use of the word Gaza in the context of this discussion either refer to the geographical area Gaza or to the idea of a Palestinian politically controlled entity/representation in Gaza.
The remainder of all your posts are of very low quality. Since you seem to disagree with me I invite you to prove me wrong by backing up your claims with a few reasonable sources. If you don't want to source your claims that I am wrong, I'll take that as proof that your knowledge of this conflict is exceedingly​ poor - and thus you are in no position to discuss it.
Personally I do not think that the map is of importance for this discussion. However, I was also not the one who decided to post this poor excuse for a data comparison visualised as a sequence of maps. That was you.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
Well, the only reason Palestine didn't exist as a state in 1948 is colonialism. The only reason it doesn't exist today is military occupation and ethnic cleansing. Denying this is stupid, and since Israeli citizens don't seem to like Muslims very much they'd better withdraw from Gaza and the West Bank and work for a two-state solution FAST before a Jewish AND Palestinian state is the only solution.
(That, or finally admit they wanted an Apartheid all this time, but I know this is not the case unless you are Likud)
(That, or finally admit they wanted an Apartheid all this time, but I know this is not the case unless you are Likud)
TheChuggernaut
Banned
People who are going on about how not playing would only hurt Radiohead fans in Israel need to open a damn history book, because the artists that refused to play South Africa during apartheid absolutely made a difference. If the idea of people not getting to hear Paranoid Android live upsets you more then actual oppression then you need to get your priorities straight
Palette Swap
Member
You write this cheap gotcha like I don't believe the situation is awful for the Palestinians.
But yeah, keep culture from reaching Israeli progressives, that will end the horror of the settlements any day now.
The point is that if Radiohead wants to play in Tel Aviv, or if Rowling wants to sign books there, that doesn't make them pro-Likud, pro-settlements monsters.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I'm of two minds here. I do think that criticism of BDS is fair game; I understand the cause and I think it's noble, but I can certainly see the perspective that it's hypocritical. Israel's actions against Palestine are reprehensible, yet so are innumerable actions taken in the name of, I dunno, name any major western power over smaller nations. Culture is an odd target to sanction; if anything, you'd think artists would be encouraged to reach out to like-minded fans in nations like Israel rather than simply boycott them. Then again, there's also the matter of tax funds from these shows going to the government and tacitly endorsing the problem, and this kind of protest has absolutely been valuable in the past - I'm sure acts refusing to perform in North Carolina during the kerfuffle over human rights laws made a big difference in bringing attention to the issue, for example. It's a complex, unpleasant situation and while I fall more on the pro-BDS side of things, I do think there are valid concerns with it.
Thom really should have kept his mouth shut here though because, uh, there's pretty much nothing of substance in his answer. It's particularly weird given how sharp Radiohead's political activism has been in the past.
Thom really should have kept his mouth shut here though because, uh, there's pretty much nothing of substance in his answer. It's particularly weird given how sharp Radiohead's political activism has been in the past.
KonradLaw
Member
So you're bassicaly pro-current situation continuing indefinitely. Because realistically that;'s the only alternative. Israel will never allow jews to become minority in their country. it's just not going to happen.
TheChuggernaut
Banned
Never said it did, but saying this only hurts fans is historically false. Artists that chose to play Sun City were criticized for that choice, and I see no reason why Radiohead shouldn't be criticized for their choice to play Israel.
astroturfing
Member
don't forget Israel is also a state where a mainstream politician (Miri Regev) can say that African migrants are a "cancer" and 52% of Israeli Jews agree with her (according to the Israel Democracy Institute). 33% agree with violence against African migrants. also don't forget the forced sterilizations of black people etc..
so yeah.. bye Thom.
so yeah.. bye Thom.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the main sources of instability in the region and the fault is entirely of the Israeli government. Furthermore even the Israeli "left" (Itself a minority) will quickly use blatantly racist excuses for what's going on. Poor privileged rich Israelis who weep on FB about the Palestinians and then visit their family members and friends in their settlement houses! How would they feel if they couldn't listen to Karma Police live!
ClosingADoor
Member
Kind of a big claim here. If not for World War 1 and colonialism, we don't know how the Ottoman Empire would have evolved. So saying that it would totally be its own country is a strange way to look at it.
Looking at how things go in other countries, I can't really blame them for that. But then they do need to give the Palestinians their own land to live on.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
I think Radiohead feels like they owe it to Israel, didn't their first hit blow up there?
Doctor_Thomas
Member
The opening act for Radiohead has an Israeli composer performing music from an album that Jonny Greenwood worked on. Is it maybe more of a case of letting that person take their music to their own country?
MisterFalcon
Member
Gaza kicked the Egyptians out in 1967 ? Please tell me more, this must have been censored from everything I've ever read. Who led this expulsion, was it by force or by agreement ?
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
Well, for calling the Ottoman Empire a despotic state, the Allied colonialists sure seemed to be fond of their methods, but that's the typical Western Colonialist hypocrisy. Palestine was not liberated back then, it simply changed hands. Still, in 1948 it was the English colonialists who were preventing Palestinian statehood.
Food for thought: not even the English drove 800000 people out of their homes like the State of Israel did in 1948...
ClosingADoor
Member
But that wasn't your claim. You said if there was no colonialism there would have been an Palestinian state. But that goes by the fact that it would have simply been part of another state (the Ottoman empire) probably. Your thought that if it wasn't for England and now Israel it would totally be it's own country is a bit too simplistic.
This line of discussion is disingenuous at best. Whether the state that the indigenous people would live in would be a unified entity called Palestine, would be part of a larger state, or would be split between Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and/or Egypt is a red herring. In any case, the indigenous people would rightfully be full citizens, with all the rights and protections thereof, of that state, instead of being stateless people locked into ever-shrinking camps behind razor-tipped fences, constantly being stripped of livelihood, property, and dignity, and without any semblance of equality under the laws of the occupying power.
HappyBivouac
Member
It amazes me that in this day and age, people still think along the lines of "[country]'s government is doing this shitty thing, therefore fuck all the people living there." It's so easy to paint with a broad brush from far away, though.
I have tons of friends here in China who are hugely into a lot of Western bands, most of whom will never play here. Admittedly that's not always politically motivated, but I'm pretty sure it is for many artists. Bands can of course choose to play wherever they want and have no obligation to go anywhere, but if you're just shunning an entire population of people because their government is shit, then it kind of shows your own ignorance.
Also, boycotting an entire country will likely hurt the lower classes more than the rich and powerful who control the things you're trying to stand against.
I have tons of friends here in China who are hugely into a lot of Western bands, most of whom will never play here. Admittedly that's not always politically motivated, but I'm pretty sure it is for many artists. Bands can of course choose to play wherever they want and have no obligation to go anywhere, but if you're just shunning an entire population of people because their government is shit, then it kind of shows your own ignorance.
Also, boycotting an entire country will likely hurt the lower classes more than the rich and powerful who control the things you're trying to stand against.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
This. The states in all places formerly occupied by European colonialists are highly artificial (As were European states back in the day, or any state for that matter) but at least their citizens are fully righted citizens of a sovereign state.
What Israel is doing is a terrible international crime, and reminiscent of a certain story from the Torah/Bible...
Ultravi0lence
Member
I also agree that the pile on culture in this thread of wanting boycotts and sanctions is a bit saddening. Whatever your stance it's not the Israeli government that will be hurt by these things.
Elfotografoalocado
Banned
This is still debated in economic circles, there have been cases of economic sanctions or plain economic collapse bringing the fall of authoritarian regimes like the comparable Apartheid regime, and Iran has been brought to the negotiation table thanks to sanctions.
In many other cases, sanctions do nothing but put a burden on the economy, hurting the poor and not preventing anything. They are a political tool for appeasing voters, for sure.
In the case of Israel, this is not a rogue state like North Korea, or a great superpower like the Soviet Union, and its only big international backing is the US, which claims to be a democracy. The same was true for South Africa, so a similar solution could be used.
Israel needs to get more criticism from the international community, the moment any report appears contradicting the notion that Israel is not a democratic fairytale the Israeli government pops up hurling the word Nazi at everybody like it's Christmas. Also, everybody seems to forget the ANC used to be labeled a terrorist organization.
The Faceless Master
Member
just imagine!
It's not a third world country, Israelis would manage with a bit less luxury and more motivation to be constructive about solving the situation.
It would also help the Israeli left more because right now the rightwing douchebags get rewarded for being shitty.
ClosingADoor
Member
Nothing in my post talked about the current treatment of the people there. I just said that we don't have any reason to belief there would be a Palestine state if not for colonialism and Israel now, since it also wasn't its own state before. To claim those two are the "only reason" for there not being a Palestine state is ignoring a lot of things.
The Faceless Master
Member
cooks SHOULDN'T judge other cooks cooking!
I doubt radiohead not performing will help in any way. Most of the people who are going probably generally agree with a two state solution and those that aren't already buy into the whole government "the world is against us/antisemitic/Muslim controlled Europe" propaganda nonsense.
If anything, showing up then making headline-making statements might be better. I don't really know though.
Mr.Shrugglesã
Banned
Shut up and play your instruments, you jesters!
Stop expressing yourselves!
Stop expressing yourselves!
Dude Abides
Banned
Its fine if you don't care about the situation in the occupied territories, Thommy boy. Plenty of people don't. You didn't need this self-absorbed hand-wringing whine to tell us that.
Messofanego
Banned
That'd be understandable if Bibi is the only person in Israel carrying out the apartheid but it's a significant amount more, and the amount of Israelis in favour of IDF and it all.
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