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[Rhindle]

Thomson to Back Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD

Company, one of the core backers of Blu-ray, will also support its rival format.

Martyn Williams, IDG News Service

Friday, December 10, 2004

Thomson, one of the core backers of the Blu-ray Disc format for high-definition video discs, plans to offer players supporting the rival HD-DVD format and disc duplication services for both formats, it says.

The company is one of Europe's largest electronics brands and a founding member of the consortium that is promoting the Blu-ray Disc format. The format and its competitor offer several times the storage capacity of current DVDs and are being positioned to succeed DVD for the storage of high-definition video.

"We're a founding member [of the Blu-ray Disc Association] so we are involved with that format but we are a little more advanced on the HD-DVD [disc production] front," says Monica Coull, a spokesperson for Thomson in Paris. Thomson offers disc reproduction services through its Technicolor business.

"We'll be ready with the HD-DVD at the end of 2005. For Blu-ray, I don't think the time frame is as advanced," she says.

Thomson's announcement marks the first time that a Blu-ray Disc board member has announced plans to support HD-DVD and adds another layer of complexity to the battle between the two standards.

Blu-ray Disc counts 15 major backers on its board and offers single-layer discs of 25GB capacity and dual-layer discs of double that. HD-DVD has a lesser number of electronics companies behind the format and its discs are lower capacity at around 15GB for a single-layer disc.

HD-DVD players for movies are likely to be on the market before the end of 2005 before comparable Blu-ray Disc movie players, according to current commercialization plans. Disc production costs for HD-DVD are likely to be lower, say disc makers.

To date HD-DVD has picked up support from four major content producers: Paramount Pictures, Warner Bros. Studios, Universal Pictures, and New Line Cinema. Until this week the only major movie studio to announce support for Blu-ray Disc was Sony's Sony Pictures unit. Earlier this week Walt Disney and its Buena Vista Home Entertainment division threw their weight behind the format.

In addition to Thomson, the other Blu-ray Disc board members are Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Hitachi, Koninklijke Philips Electronics, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic, Pioneer, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, TDK, Twentieth Century Fox, and Walt Disney Pictures and Television.

The largest companies behind HD-DVD are Toshiba, NEC, and Sanyo Electric, and it's also backed by the DVD Forum.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118897,00.asp

 

[sonycowboy]

Why Blu-Ray is the better format:
-----------------------------------------------------

They will use the same audio and video codecs. The 2 differences? Storage space and cost? That's it.

Blu-Ray will go up to 200GB of storage vs 30GB on HD-DVD.

The only downside for content providers is that they will have to retool their production facilities, which is expensive. But within an extremely short period of time, that cost can be expressed as pennies per Blu-Ray disc produced. So, do I care if Time Warner has to pay 10 cents for a disc vs 3 for the first year? And every year after that, they will be exactly the same cost. And are they, in the end, going to be so incredibly short sided that go with a medium that cannot possibly stand up to the data storage requirements not only for prepackaged movies, but also home recording (think Tivo with tens of hours of recorded Hi-Def material), games, computers, etc?


http://slate.msn.com/id/2110495/

A great article about the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray issue.

"There's only one real difference between these next-generation DVDs and today's models: storage capacity. The best format, then, is simply the one with the most possible storage space. By all accounts, that's Blu-ray."

It's pretty obvious that HD-DVD isn't being rolled out to benefit high-definition-deprived viewers. Consider that HD-DVD reps told the Times that, rather than increase capacity, they're "considering more efficient software compression" to squeeze longer high-def movies onto their disks. Isn't the whole point of these new disks that they'll accommodate high-definition formats without stripping them of their high resolution?

The good news is that if HD-DVD does turn out to be a low-capacity sham, Hollywood probably won't be able to force it down our throats. DVDs aren't just for movies anymore: Whichever disk wins out will almost certainly become the standard for new computers, game consoles, and other gadgets, just as CD and DVD drives did. It's unlikely that computer users—or computer manufacturers—will settle for a medium that stores 30 gigs of data rather than 200 because it saves Warner Bros. a little money.

 

[DopeyFish]

THIS BETTER NOT MEAN THAT MY XBOX 2 WILL HAVE A THOMSON DRIVE :'(

 

[duderon]

HAHA, Samsung drive in my Xdude, you can't get me Thompson!

*runs*

 

[Suikoguy]

THIS BETTER NOT MEAN THAT MY XBOX 2 WILL HAVE A THOMSON DRIVE :'(

I think this is the first time i've laughed out loud to something Dopey Fish said! :lol

 

[sonycowboy]

HAHA, Samsung drive in my Xdude, you can't get me Thompson!

*runs*

Well, Samsung (one of the Blu-Ray founders) is also going to produce HD-DVD drives.

 

[Particle Physicist]

um.. either a misleading title.. or you misunderstood this sentence.


'
"We'll be ready with the HD-DVD at the end of 2005. For Blu-ray, I don't think the time frame is as advanced," she says.
'

its just engrish speaking. basically .. HD is coming out before Blu-ray.

 

[kaching]

Fantastic work on that topic title, Rhindle. Your check's in the mail.

 

[timlot]

Well, Samsung (one of the Blu-Ray founders) is also going to produce HD-DVD drives.

Thats intresting. I know Thomson just announced support for both, but I haven't of Samsung doing the same. Do you have a link?

 

[DCharlie]

"The only downside for content providers is that they will have to retool their production facilities, which is expensive. But within an extremely short period of time, that cost can be expressed as pennies per Blu-Ray disc produced."

... surely this is based on a formula which ensures some sort of level of return? What level of return is that? Does this factor in the fact that people have to buy new hardware? etc...

i've no illusions that BR is the better tech, but all the financial justifications all seem to have the implicit attachment that the format will have an instant sell out rate and a hardware pick up of 100%. Reduction of the price of pressing plants conversion, new format tax, etc will reduce to pennies per Bluray?

The only way you can reduce those huge production cost is to have returning profit coming in surely? And i just can't see how any one can call that at this point in time.

 

[jarrod]

If Xenon does have a HD-DVD drive, I expect Microsoft will be getting them directly form NEC or Toshiba at an extremely low rate (as the HD-DVD partners have been pushing hard for it's inclusion themselves).

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I'd be willing to bet money on Toshiba, they are pushing this like hell. It's like they staked the companies fortunes on it judging their aggressiveness

 

[Vortac]

HD DVD gains trio of Hollywood studio backers
By Yoshiko Hara
EE Times
December 06, 2004 (10:00 AM EST)



Tokyo — Three major film studios last week said they would release movies on optical disks with high-definition DVD formatting, positioning themselves against consumer electronics giant and rising Hollywood power Sony Corp., which backs the rival Blu-ray Disc format.

Some HD-DVD advocates believe the move means the battle for supremacy in next-generation optical disks is over. "With support from Hollywood, the next-generation optical-disk system has started moving toward a single format," said Yoshihide Fujii, president and CEO of Toshiba Digital Media Network Co.

Paramount Pictures, Universal Pictures and Warner Bros. said they will support HD-DVD because of its cost, content security features and backward compatibility with today's DVD disks. Two Warner sister divisions, New Line Cinemas and HBO, will also support the HD-DVD format.




The companies are standing together against Sony and partners backing the Blu-ray Disc format that Sony helped create. Blu-ray is not backward compatible with today's DVD video disks.

The importance of Hollywood's support in the war between the formats is recognized by the Blu-ray Disc Association, the multicompany standards body. "In the end," said a statement on the association's Web site, "it's up to the movie studios to decide in what format they release their movies, so they will play a big part in the decision of which format becomes the standard for high-definition movies and the successor to DVD." Only the Columbia TriStar studio has publicly said it will release movies in the Blu-ray format, the association said.

The three studios supporting HD DVD together owned nearly 45 percent of the U.S. DVD market in the first half of 2004, according to Variety Group's DVD Exclusive research arm. Warner Bros. had a 23.1 percent stake, Universal 13.3 percent and Paramount 8.2 percent. Sony Pictures and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, which Sony purchased earlier this year, together accounted for 18.8 percent. Fox, which joined the board of directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association last summer, held 11.3 percent. Fox has not announced plans for Blu-ray releases.

Nor has Sony said when it expects films to become available in the Blu-ray format. But in September the company announced it would sample key semiconductor components for Blu-ray players and recorders by the end of 2004.

HD-DVD products are expected to come to market late next year. Toshiba will introduce players and ROM drives in the fourth quarter of 2005, said Fujii. "The most important challenge is to establish a new, secure copy protection system," he said, because that is what Hollywood is "longing for." Thus, "It is advantageous for us to bring the new copy protection technology to market earlier than our competitors," Fujii said.

The HD-DVD group has endorsed the Advanced Access Content System under development by IBM, Intel, Matsushita, Microsoft, Sony, Toshiba, the Walt Disney Co. and Warner Bros.

Universal cited this point in a statement last week, saying it expects the HD-DVD format to offer the most secure enhanced copy protection to date, a fundamental issue in today's digital world. "As a content-based company, we are always looking for new ways to deliver our films and television programs to consumers in a high-quality, secure and user-friendly manner," said president and COO Rick Finkelstein. "We believe HD DVD achieves all of these goals."

It is not clear whether Universal, Paramount and Warner Bros. will support HD DVD exclusively. Toshiba's Fujii declined comment on the issue, citing nondisclosure agreements.

Warner Bros., however, clearly stated its preference for HD DVD over Blu-Ray. "After extensive research and careful consideration of the technological and business attributes of each proposed platform, we have determined that HD DVD has the highest-quality performance and offers key advantages in the areas of durability and reliability," said Kevin Tsujihara, executive vice president for new-business development and strategy at Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

The biggest advantage is a smooth transition from DVD thanks to the same disk structure, said Shiroharu Kawasaki, president of Memory Tech Corp., a prerecorded-disk manufacturer. "We have eight years of technology accumulation in DVD. Thus, we can assure a high level of quality for HD DVD as well," he said. "Our volume production lines are already in operation for HD DVD, with a capacity of 50 million disks a year."

Memory Tech expects demand for the first year to be in the range of tens of millions of disks, "so we already have enough capacity to satisfy those needs," Kawasaki said. The smooth transition will keep productivity high and costs almost at a par with DVD disks, he added.

'Clear advantages'
Indeed, "We believe that HD DVD has clear advantages in cost of manufacturing and ease of replication, offering consumers the highest-quality viewing experience at the most affordable price," said Thomas Lesinski, president of Paramount Pictures. Timed with the introduction of hardware, Universal plans to release some film titles during the 2005 holiday season. Paramount says it will begin marketing HD-DVD titles at the beginning of 2006.

All present DVD recorders can read DVD disks regardless of their recording format — DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, DVD-R and even DVD+RW. The support of the Hollywood heavyweights means HD DVD stands a chance of doing the same in the next generation of DVD technology, at least in the ROM category.

Especially at the beginning of the transition, products have to be compatible with today's DVD disks. And that is where HD DVD shines.

On the other hand, the possibility of integrating the two formats has all but disappeared. "We investigated the possibility, but there is no good solution to overcome" technical differences in cover layers and bonded platters, said Fujii of Toshiba. "If people need a 200-Gbyte disk, then the solution may be a Blu-ray disk. But who needs 200-Gbyte capacity? What is important is backward compatibility and cost." At this point, he said, the market will not support "irrational integration."

The format battle between HD DVD and Blu-ray is often compared to the Beta vs. VHS video cassette brawl. But Fujii argued that the situation now is different, because the product concept has changed and capacity is no longer a critical issue. In the videotape era, long recording time was a big advantage. But today's DVD recorders usually have built-in hard-disk drives. Individuals record whatever they want in a system's hard drive and use disks only when they want to archive content.

PCs with built-in HD-DVD drives are expected to hit the market in the fourth quarter of next year, around the time of Toshiba's player and ROM product launches. Sanyo Electric Co. Ltd. is also preparing to market HD-DVD players in the fourth quarter of 2005. NEC Corp. says it will introduce HD-DVD ROM drives in September, followed by rewritable drives in December. These companies' component divisions have started sampling key components to set manufacturers, or will soon do so. HD-DVD recorders will follow sometime in 2006.



---

Toshiba, Memory-Tech propose dual-layer DVD/HD DVD disk

By Yoshiko Hara
EE Times
December 10, 2004 (10:11 AM EST)

TOKYO — Seeking to ease the transition from the DVD to HD DVD format, Memory-Tech Corp. and Toshiba Corp., the main promoters of HD DVD, have jointly developed a dual-layer ROM (read-only) disk capable of storing both DVD and HD DVD content in the same disk.

The new disk has the same structure as present single-sided, dual-layer DVD disks. Like conventional DVDs, two 0.6-mm disks, each with one recording layer, are bonded together with a roughly 40-micron-thick resin. The layer closest to the optical head has a 4.7-Gbyte capacity, meeting specifications for current DVDs. The other layer has a 15-Gbyte capacity to store HD DVD content.

The new disk would allow consumers to view DVD content until they purchase new HD DVD players.




The two companies claimed the new disk structure would expand content providers' options. Along with the DVD/HD DVD combination, the disk can store various content combinations like a full-length movie and a separate trailer.

The partners said they will soon propose the disk structure to the DVD Forum. Since it was derived from the present DVD dual-layer disk, development took only about six months, according to a Toshiba spokeswoman.

Memory-Tech said the new disk could be produced on its manufacturing lines at a cost that is comparable to current single-sided, dual-layer DVD-ROM or HD DVD-ROM disks

 

[Vortac]

Blu Ray isn't compatible with DVD. Sony screwed themselves over there.

If people need a 200-Gbyte disk, then the solution may be a Blu-ray disk. But who needs 200-Gbyte capacity? What is important is backward compatibility and cost." At this point, he said, the market will not support "irrational integration."

 

[kaching]

*NEITHER* HD-DVD nor BRD tech is directly compatible with DVD (or CD). Both HDDVD and BRD use blue-laser emitters/housing which simply can't be used to read red-laser optical media correctly. So what most manufacturers have proposed to do, ON BOTH SIDES, is to include a second red-laser emitter to allow one device to read the blue-laser and red-laser optical media.

 

[G4life98]

Blu Ray isn't compatible with DVD. Sony screwed themselves over there.

If people need a 200-Gbyte disk, then the solution may be a Blu-ray disk. But who needs 200-Gbyte capacity? What is important is backward compatibility and cost." At this point, he said, the market will not support "irrational integration."

Regardless of what happens with movies, Blu-ray should be the clear winner with pc users since capacity is king.

Does anyone know when the drives are scheduled to hit the market?

 

[Rhindle]

Errrr ... what's with the title change, mods?

I was clearly referring to the BRD's release date not being as advanced. HD-DVD is on track for late 2005, Blue-Ray's development is lagging behind.

And the point of this thread, since everybody seems to be missing it: HD-DVD will almost certainly be available by late 2005, should Microsoft choose to incorporate a HD-DVD spec in Xenon. However, BRD's state of development could be a delaying factor for the PS3 launch.

 

[kaching]

Because one CE manufacturer "doesn't think" the timeframe is as advanced?!? There are already two BRD recorders on the market in Japan.

 

[Rhindle]

Because one CE manufacturer "doesn't think" the timeframe is as advanced?!? There are already two BRD recorders on the market in Japan.

It's a question of how quickly production costs come down to the point that you can include them in a $299 machine. AFAIK, no one is promising to deliver cheap consumer BRD recorders within a year.

 

[kaching]

No one's made any promises about delivering cheap HDDVD players, neverminder recorders, within a year either. Last time I saw anyone say anything about it, it was Toshiba suggesting $1000 for the first players that hit the market. If that's late 2005 and the Xbox2 is late 2005, they don't have any time to save on production costs either. You can talk about NEC/Toshiba cutting them a deal, or MS simply eating the cost, but Sony is equally capable of doing the same and has already announced that they've set themselves a course for including BRD in PS3.

 

[retardboy]

Samsung has been helping Toshiba out with their HDDVD disc production. Dunno about players. Thompsons/RCA said they will be making both blu-ray and hddvd discs, but ONLY HDDVD players and not Blu-Ray players.