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To torture or not to torture? A question that troubles the West

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http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/resourc...orture-a-question-that-troubles-the-west.html

In the hit Fox TV thriller “24” Counter Terrorism agent Jack Bauer (played by Kiefer Sutherland) usually gets his man. And more often than not it will involve a fair dose of urgent persuasion.

Although illegal (and the programme makers stress the illegality of his actions) Jack Bauer will routinely cut off his opponents fingers
(with a cigar cutter), inject all manner of chemicals, or simply beat them to near death in the interests of gathering a vital
morsel of information. It’s an example of the “ticking bomb” scenario – faced with a ticking bomb, all formalities and rules go
out the window. Of course in a 24 part series with each part representing only 1 hour of Jack’s frantic life, not a minute can
be lost – so much so that the torture tactics appear regularly – on average every 2 hours in fact! While “24” doesn’t represent reality, it has managed very effectively to desensitise the American public to the use of torture.

But Binyam Mohamed is no fictional character, and the repeated torture he suffered at the hands of his captors was no illusion. Where was the ticking bomb in his case? What was the urgent life or death information that had to be extracted with the greatest reluctance? In his case, and those of many others, the ‘ticking bomb’ is as real as Saddam’s WMD.

In Binyam’s case, a US judge reported that his “trauma lasted for two long years. During that time he was physically and psychologically tortured. His genitals were mutilated ... All the while he was forced to inculpate (incriminate) himself and others in various plots to imperil Americans.”

The supposed ‘ticking bomb’ scenarios initially used to justify the use of torture, have now been replaced by sustained and routine torture of detainees in the off chance that some useful intelligence can be gained. Supposed “life saving” emergency action is now intimidation and humiliation as witnessed at Guantanamo bay, Bagram Air base, Abu Ghraib and many other less publicised
rendition centres.

The 1984 UN Convention against torture that Western states supposedly uphold is explicit. It defines torture as “the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering whether physical or mental”. The US only ratified this law 10 years later in 1994 and have been reigning back on it ever since. President Bush set out a new directive redefining what constitutes torture in a communiqué of
August 2002: “the infliction of pain equivalent to serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily functions or even death”. Anything less than such a draconian beating merely constitutes “coercive interrogation” in the US leadership’s eyes.

The British government, despite protestations of principle against torture in all its guises, is in reality complicit with American policy. The Binyam Mohamed case has exposed the hypocrisy of their position. Binyam Mohamed complained that British agents
attended his interrogation/torture sessions. A case confirming British involvement (MI5 and MI6) in his torture by the CIA, was tried at court in 2009. Despite attempts by the UK foreign secretary, David Miliband, to suppress the evidence, citing that such disclosure would harm national security because it was given in confidence by the US authorities, the government lost the case
at the high court. On 14 December 2009, Miliband appealed against the high court ruling, that CIA information on Binyam Mohamed's treatment, and what MI5 and MI6 knew about it, must be disclosed.

The British government’s excuses for their attempted and failed cover-up run hollow. There was no vital and confidential information extracted from Binyam Mohamed only that they tortured him and British agents happily watched/assisted. Furthermore if you make it known that you are prepared to accept the unreliable intelligence gained via torture, you are hardly doing anything to discourage the continuation of such torture – which further exposes the lie that they really oppose its use.

The subsequent decision of the UK Attorney General that MI5 and MI6 will not be investigated or prosecuted in connection with their complicity in the torture of detainees, only adds to the clear impression that such detestable and illegal activity is now being officially condoned at the highest levels.

The Debate

Some people in the West feel sad that principles of ‘human rights’, that some in earlier generations fought hard for in Europe, such as the outright forbiddance of torture, have now so easily fallen by the wayside in the so-called “free” world. But outside those individuals who do actually care about these principles, there are leading legal or journalistic figures who are not merely debating the abhorrent idea but actively trying to justify it, which shows the depths to which some will stoop in their “war on terror”. In a
recent article, the media commentator Bruce Anderson not only declares it a right to torture, but states Britain has a “duty” to
torture, even advocating the torture of a suspect’s family to achieve the desired aims.

It is little wonder that trust and respect for the secular values espoused by western governments hold little acceptance anywhere in the Muslim world. Preemptive strikes for regime change, military occupation, and now pre-emptive torture to elicit confessions, desired intelligence or to simply bully, show the true face of a morally bankrupt regime, and Muslims have already experienced enough of those on our side of the fence. Democracy and freedom are merely slogans designed to attract the unthinking to their side, when in reality the old doctrine of “might is right” holds the true leadership. The battle for ideas was lost long ago. They disqualify themselves even before the starting blocks.

But there is also an inherent schizophrenic identity crisis in Western states. On one hand there is a strong claim of a principled commitment to human rights. But in truth these states regularly discard their human rights ideals for narrow interest based/utilitarian ideals. Moreover, much of the argument against torture is not that it is wrong in principle, but that it simply does not work, as if it would be any less repugnant if it had a modicum of success. The hypocrisy of such people that advocate human rights but hide behind legal injunctions and court actions to keep silent the truth of what their security services have done, does not do them or the system they represent any good. If they really had confidence in the principles they profess then surely they would have confidence that the arguments driven from these principles would win the debate. But the only plausible alternative explanation of this contradiction is that they (the ruling establishment in the West) know that the system is not truly fit for purpose. Hence they maintain an elaborate charade necessary to at least keep concerned individuals amongst the general public happy. But many Muslims are not so easily deceived.

Islam

Islam in contrast prohibits torture or any mistreatment of prisoners of war whatsoever. A common criticism of Shariah law is that it is absolutist on some issues, but this includes an absolute prohibition of torture. The Messenger (Sall Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: "Providing a proof is incumbent on the plaintiff and giving an oath is a must on the defendant, if he denies.'

The Messenger of Allah explained that providing the initial proof is for the plaintiff to provide which also indicates conclusively that the defendant is treated as innocent until proven guilty. Coersion, the use of force and threatening behaviour towards the accused is also prohibited.

Hizb ut-Tahrir listed as Article 12 in the Draft Constitution for the Islamic State: Initially every person is innocent. And no
one is to be punished except by a rule of court. It is not permitted to torture any one and whosoever does so will be punished.

There is no ‘ends justifies the means’ argument in Islam, no ticking bomb clauses and no conviction without the presentation of evidence, the right to defend oneself in a valid court of law, and the right to a fair trial. The fact that torture exists today in Muslim countries is because these countries have adopted an ‘ends and means’ argument – where the ends are to secure regimes, and the means are torture to create fear and to keep western allies happy. The next Caliphate will have a constitutional prohibition on torture absolutely, and there is nothing that Jack and his friends at Fox can do to change that.

www.khilafah.eu
 

Kowak

Banned
Saving lives>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my human rights concern

EDIT: can every article about torture not mention Jack Bauer.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
not.

/the end


and LOL at Islamic law. What "Muslim country" actually practice this?!:lol

like Christians for death penalty
 
Islam

Islam in contrast prohibits torture or any mistreatment of prisoners of war whatsoever. A common criticism of Shariah law is that it is absolutist on some issues, but this includes an absolute prohibition of torture. The Messenger (Sall Allahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: "Providing a proof is incumbent on the plaintiff and giving an oath is a must on the defendant, if he denies.'

The Messenger of Allah explained that providing the initial proof is for the plaintiff to provide which also indicates conclusively that the defendant is treated as innocent until proven guilty. Coersion, the use of force and threatening behaviour towards the accused is also prohibited.

Hizb ut-Tahrir listed as Article 12 in the Draft Constitution for the Islamic State: Initially every person is innocent. And no
one is to be punished except by a rule of court. It is not permitted to torture any one and whosoever does so will be punished.

That's great. So when those Al-Qaeda operatives cut off the head of a journalist or a captured soldier, it's only after they've tried him and found him guilty of crimes by rule of war, right?

Dunno...the whole thing reads like propaganda (of course, this isn't to say that the US hasn't done some seriously fucked up shit and tortured innocent people caught in the dragnet as well).
 

McNei1y

Member
If Jack Bauer does it, its right. The mans a hero on 8 different occasions. Plus hes got a hot daughter!

but I agree with the second post. Its fucked up but if it could save lives... somehow... then I would say an exception? I dunno. :lol
 

LCGeek

formerly sane
I don't approve of torture but understand it has a purpose in our world. Only thing that pisses me off is most citizens of the world act outraged on this subject but most big industrialized countries know without this or having a military apparatus they be shit in the big picture.
 
CharlieDigital said:
That's great. So when those Al-Qaeda operatives cut off the head of a journalist or a captured soldier, it's only after they've tried him and found him guilty of crimes by rule of war, right?

Dunno...the whole thing reads like propaganda (of course, I'm not denying that the US has done some seriously fucked up shit and tortured innocent people caught in the dragnet as well).

I understand your point totally mate but remember that certain aspects of what Al-Qaeda do is not allowed in islam and is forbidden just like the torture squads that the majority of muslim rulers use.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Awesome, another fair and unbiased topic bought to you by Kobashi100 and his friends at Hizb ut-Tahrir (who many in the UK would like banned due to their extremist links) and Khilafah.eu - promoting division everywhere. Bad Western world! When we will follow the peaceful and harmonious Islamic model?

Think I'll skip this one.

CharlieDigital said:
That's great. So when those Al-Qaeda operatives cut off the head of a journalist or a captured soldier, it's only after they've tried him and found him guilty of crimes by rule of war, right?

Dunno...the whole thing reads like propaganda (of course, this isn't to say that the US hasn't done some seriously fucked up shit and tortured innocent people caught in the dragnet as well).
Ding ding ding!
 

Medalion

Banned
Torture everyone, even the innocents, not like they'll like lie to save themselves from the torture... if you are true honorable man, take the punishment, and like it and say nothing to incriminate yourself.
 

Kowak

Banned
Souldriver said:

To tell you the truth I dont know where I fall on the torture issue. Sometimes I feel like as long as it saves lives then who gives a fuck. However, I know that sometimes it doesnt work and the info is bogus and innocent people will get mistakenly tortured.

I wish we lived in a world where we didnt have to use it, but sadly we do now and again.
 

msv

Member
Cyan said:
Yeah. Anyway, if you're not a criminal, you have nothing to worry about.
Unless you get tortured. That'd suck.

They should just hire some dudes with Derren Brown skillz and jedi mind trick dem turrirrrists into talking. Make em think they're getting tortured.
 

kevm3

Member
Against, because as soon as you authorize this to be used to 'save lives', it's going to start to be used for less than honorable purposes. Obviously it goes on 'behind closed doors' and if it MUST occur, it needs to stay there. This doesn't need to be given a stamp of official acceptance. Say for example, if torturing is allowed to save lives, if we obtain a gang leader, are we able to torture him to give up the rest of his gang so that we can 'potentially save lives'? Although this may initially start out as something 'helpful', it will quickly become a box we wish we hadn't opened as it becomes used for things such as political advantage.
 
Cyan said:
Yeah. Anyway, if you're not a criminal, you have nothing to worry about.

There has been at least one case of Americans capturing and torturing an innocent man since 9/11 and I'd wager that there are probably more.

kobashi100 said:
I understand your point totally mate but remember that certain aspects of what Al-Qaeda do is not allowed in islam and is forbidden just like the torture squads that the majority of muslim rulers use.

I understand that perhaps this is what Islam and the Qaran itself says, but just as Christians are often found in contempt of their teachings, Muslims are often clearly in contempt of their teachings as well.
 

zoukka

Member
Kowak said:
To tell you the truth I dont know where I fall on the torture issue. Sometimes I feel like as long as it saves lives then who gives a fuck. However, I know that sometimes it doesnt work and the info is bogus and innocent people will get mistakenly tortured.

I wish we lived in a world where we didnt have to use it, but sadly we do now and again.

Disgusting coward.
 

msv

Member
Cyan said:
Well no, they only torture terrorists.
Hadn't thought of that. You're right, there's nothing to worry about.

So that's settled then. What's next?

edit: Wait I know. If the terrorist is a hot chick, they should rape her as torture. Any thoughts? (I know where I'll be sending my CV woohoo!!)
 

Dali

Member
This is some serious terrorist recruitment literature. I can see this being the coversheet in a "So you want to be a terrorist" packet. It's just a one-sided criticism of the "west" whose ultimate goal is to contrast the evil empire with the benevolence of Islam as demonstrated by the final paragraph.

Moreover, much of the argument against torture is not that it is wrong in principle, but that it simply does not work, as if it would be any less repugnant if it had a modicum of success.

Even if you're a westerner and say you are against torture, you are an untrustworthy secularist and a hypocrite because you're only against it because it doesn't work!!11!eleven!

... or maybe that's just the best argument to get the morally bankrupt warmongers to drop it.

Kowak said:
Saving lives>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my human rights concern

EDIT: can every article about torture not mention Jack Bauer.
Yeah fuck that.

It's crazy the amount of shit people are willing to give up to maintain the illusion of safety. I think one of the soldiers that was a part of the torture of the Abu Ghraib prisoners put it best when describing how she felt when it was happening. During her participation she felt or knew she was doing something wrong. She felt as though they were giving up the moral high ground that she thought the US stood for. Like she was someone lowering the US by doing this thing.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
Hizb ut-tahrir? The issue here is not what the OP posted but rather why people like him are attracted to such sites.
 
BattleMonkey said:
TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO KNOW!!!!!
4362756860_7cabdec0a5_o.jpg


I like the idea of emulating the crappiest and most backwards of countries in order to make your country a better place. That's a great idea.
 

Cyan

Banned
CharlieDigital said:
On the TeeVee or IRL?
Look, I'm just saying. The feds don't screw up this kind of stuff. It's not like the DMV. This is national security stuff, and the government never makes a mistake when national security is involved.
 

MaxSteel

Member
LCGeek said:
I don't approve of torture but understand it has a purpose in our world. Only thing that pisses me off is most citizens of the world act outraged on this subject but most big industrialized countries know without this or having a military apparatus they be shit in the big picture.

it has its place. it should be rare. and we shouldn't be hearing about it. if some covert op team needs to sneak in and abstract some important intel the hard way - and it's gonna save lies - then so be it.

but it shouldn't be a habit.
 
Atrus said:
Hizb ut-tahrir? The issue here is not what the OP posted but rather why people like him are attracted to such sites.

they are just an non violent global islamic political party dude.
 

SmokyDave

Member
Dabookerman said:
The website hasn't just got me flagged on MI6 has it?
Yes, yes it has. I'm going to go and tell the boys upstairs that you're ok though.

kobashi100 said:
they are just an non violent global islamic political party dude.
Yeah fucking right...

"The Panorama programme on BBC television uncovered a speech made in August 2006 by Ata Abu-Rishta, the global leader of Hizb ut-Tahrir, when he called for the "destruction" of Hindus living in Kashmir, Russians in Chechnya and Jews in Israel. Other critics have suggested that although Hizb ut-Tahrir officially opposes violence, its opposition to violence is temporary, not general, waiting for a more favorable opportunity and/or that its indoctrination creates an "environment" friendly to violent jihad."

From good 'ol Wiki.

I'd like you to make a topic discussing a new Islamic caliphate and your feelings on how that would work.
 

duckroll

Member
MaxSteel said:
it has its place. it should be rare. and we shouldn't be hearing about it. if some covert op team needs to sneak in and abstract some important intel the hard way - and it's gonna save lies - then so be it.

but it shouldn't be a habit.

Accepting that an exception can be made for certain people to do it automatically makes it a habit.
 
SmokyDave said:
Awesome, another fair and unbiased topic bought to you by Kobashi100 and his friends at Hizb ut-Tahrir (who many in the UK would like banned due to their extremist links) and Khilafah.eu - promoting division everywhere. Bad Western world! When we will follow the peaceful and harmonious Islamic model?
Now that you've posted this, you made me aware that I better make the distinction between Koshiba and Kobashi100, just for the sake of not confusing their personalities and pov's.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
kobashi100 said:
they are just an non violent global islamic political party dude.

Again, I wonder why these sorts of sites draw YOU in? The entire Islamist agenda is intellectually bankrupt, and this website clearly tries to twist the wording in ways to further its agenda.

Generally speaking, it's inability to do that in a less obvious manner merely means that the target audience is just that stupid.

Somewhere along the line, your mind has reconciled this nonsense idea that the ills of the Muslims everywhere will be helped by 'more' religion and a Caliphate. Under the more patriarchal mindset, you may even believe that governance in these countries must be made by Muslims irrespective of the fact that even Muslim countries have significant populations of non-Muslims, or you may even agree with Islamists in the idea that women are primarily for wifing and breeding purposes.

It seems strange that when there are books titled 'The Islamist' from former members who are now anti-Islamist, you still opt to side with low-brow religious fundamentalists.

In your view, is this sentiment growing? What has the society done to make you run to such nonsense? Is that answer rational and reasonable?
 

Shanadeus

Banned
Torture is inefficient and dangerous to rely on.
Jack Bauer can make torture work because he is fictional, usually we just end up with innocent human beings getting abused.

Institutionalized torture doesn't belong in the modern society, leave it to the barbaric countries.
 

MaxSteel

Member
duckroll said:
Accepting that an exception can be made for certain people to do it automatically makes it a habit.

maybe habit was the wrong word. we shouldn't be using it as often as we do.
 

duckroll

Member
MaxSteel said:
maybe habit was the wrong word. we shouldn't be using it as often as we do.

To find it acceptable at all opens a whole can of worms. How often is too often? How extreme is too extreme? When is it too much? Where is the line? With something like torture, there is no line. Once you let the beast out, it's out.
 

MaxSteel

Member
duckroll said:
To find it acceptable at all opens a whole can of worms. How often is too often? How extreme is too extreme? When is it too much? Where is the line? With something like torture, there is no line. Once you let the beast out, it's out.

yep. but it's an angry, violent, messed up world. it is what it is.
 
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