Btw, I guess you all missed this post the first time: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20849368&postcount=6
You should watch it. Describes this thread perfectly. :lol
You should watch it. Describes this thread perfectly. :lol
duckroll said:Btw, I guess you all missed this post the first time: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20849368&postcount=6
You should watch it. Describes this thread perfectly. :lol
duckroll said:Btw, I guess you all missed this post the first time: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=20849368&postcount=6
You should watch it. Describes this thread perfectly. :lol
MultiCore said:Youtube is blocked on NIPR-net. What is the video?
BorkBork said:If this bomb goes off, there will BE no constitution!
:lol Wow.
MultiCore said:Youtube is blocked on NIPR-net. What is the video?
MultiCore said:Okay, you just hit a buzz-phrase for me.
There are a lot of restrictions being put in place on anything you can think of, all in the name of "If we can save just 1 person/prevent 1 accident/ect then it was worth it".
As you might imagine, I find this train of logic to be overreaching. I find myself to be fond of my personal freedom, and the suggestion that my activities should be limited, because it would be in my own best interest, causes me great distress. (For instance, who in the heck has the right to tell me that I have to wear a seatbelt? No one, that's who.)
No amount of restrictive policy is going to solve all the world's problems, it is just going to reduce law-abiding citizens to zombies with little real choice.
As it pertains to torture: The odds of someone who has nothing to do with, oh, let's say a bomb threat on a US/UN/(insert favorite country/orginazation here) embassy being detained and interrogated are pretty slim. The key point is, we wouldn't be out to tourture people, we'd be out to save innocent bystanders. I think intent is important in this instance, as, from a morality standpoint, it makes all the difference.
Nobody intends to tourture an innocent person. You can bet your ass they intend to torutre someone who is withholding information that they believe, in good faith, could be used to prevent a large act of terror/violence/kitty killing/ect.
Kowak said:You say the chances are slim but there have been numerous examples of people being tortured when they had no knowledge of something. I know nobody intends to torture anybody who is innocent, but there are always mistakes in intelligence gathering. If it was a perfect process then ok, but its not.
logen9999 said:i take back my comment about not being polite anymore. it was a silly thing to say. we can have a much better discussion being polite and level headed.
having said that how exactly am i oversimplifying it? you're as guilty of it as i am since you're making an argument against it due to it being against the values of this country.
we can go hardcore and make this really detailed with bullet-points and statistics and everything. it will require a lot of time and commitment but it will be an extremely thorough and detailed discussion. or we can keep it to broad strokes which is what we've both been doing.
i feel like i've made an extremely solid, albeit general argument.
Cyan said:Ok, now let's say that if you pull a lever, the runaway trolley will go onto a different track, where it will kill one person. But if you don't pull it, it stays on the current track and kills 50,000 people!
Do you pull the lever?
beacose it's the best system that humans currently have, it's not perfect, but it is the best out of all the avalible systemskobashi100 said:Why is it that when it comes to political views the only system that is acceptable is democracy and secularism?
theusedversion said:I'm interested to hear what others would do in this scenario.
I would definitely pull it. No matter who the one person was. I cannot fathom a situation where I wouldn't but I am open to GAF showing me the light.
Enosh said:beacose it's the best system that humans currently have, it's not perfect, but it is the best out of all the avalible systems
Medalion said:Whether you torture to liven up sex or to extract info, it will always be around yo.
Lever pulled; 50,000 people saved; 1 person involved in unfortunate tragedy; instant hero!Kowak said:its like The Dark Knight boat situation, you might think you could, but could you really?
CharlieDigital said:Actually, I tend to think that democracy and secularism is only "the best" if a society is ready for it and I think every country arrives at that point at a different pace.
South Korea and Iraq are good examples of where dictators and totalitarian regimes, at the right time in history, can actually shape a country and expand it's economy and infrastructure more rapidly than through a democratic system.
Democracy is one of those things, because it's of the people, really has to come from the people to work. And by this I mean revolution or otherwise disposing of a dictator...when the time is right.
logen9999 said:i mentioned only one hypothetical scenario. how is it different then what "really happens". explain to me what "really happens". if you're a knowledgeable person who is familiar with the details of intelligence gathering and the politics behind it please go nuts and educate me. I'm open minded enough to give you the benefit of the doubt so all you have to do is run with it.
MultiCore said:Lever pulled; 50,000 people saved; 1 person involved in unfortunate tragedy; instant hero!
Failed to pull lever; 1 person saved; 50,000 people killed due to inaction; world's biggest failure.
I don't see the dilemma.
Kowak said:i know it seems simple and I agree with the theory, but I think could I really do it? I personally doubt it, so I would pass it on to someone else. I believe in the greater good principle, but putting it into practice is something different.
Misinformation can be far more dangerous.logen9999 said:anything he says can be useful, at least more useful then if he said nothing. even if it's a complete lie meant to confuse us. the CIA is not stupid, they know they will be lied to. it's their job to take anything he says and put it under a microscope and decide if how to act upon it, or to even act at all.
Pretty much.Enosh said:beacose it's the best system that humans currently have, it's not perfect, but it is the best out of all the avalible systems
By contrast, up here in Canada, our Parliament gets up in arms at the prospect that our government may have known about incidents of torture that may have occurred among Afghanistan detainees that our soldiers transferred to the Afghan authorities. And then the government cuts off a session of Parliament because they don't want to release unredacted documents either supporting or refuting the claims, on the grounds that they could all compromise operational security and international relations.MultiCore said:Lever pulled; 50,000 people saved; 1 person involved in unfortunate tragedy; instant hero!
Failed to pull lever; 1 person saved; 50,000 people killed due to inaction; world's biggest failure.
I don't see the dilemma.
MultiCore said:Lever pulled; 50,000 people saved; 1 person involved in unfortunate tragedy; instant hero!
Failed to pull lever; 1 person saved; 50,000 people killed due to inaction; world's biggest failure.
I don't see the dilemma.