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[BobLoblaw]

I like how people have conveniently avoided addressing my last post. Can't explain it? Ignore it!

Anyway, could you people going on and on and on about how much of a "coincidence" it is that the Patriots fumble less please explain to me why in the last 5 years no one else has noticed "deflated" footballs after 44 Brady interceptions and 30 lost fumbles (since 2010)?

I mean seriously, this is stupid as hell. You mean someone could notice a football 2 PSI under the minimum during the AFC title game, but no one could in the 5 years before that? Fuck outta here. Fumbling has nothing to do with this. Like I said, 2 PSI under the minimum gets you at most 1 extra millimeter in grip. Take out your ruler and see if you can tell how much that is.

I look forward to more facts being ignored.

 

[Roberto Duran]

http://www.backpicks.com/2015/05/17/fumbling-statistics-and-patriot-trends/

 

[bionic77]

Still haven't answered the question of why they fumble less in away games. Same story indeed.

You are making the assumption that they were not fucking with the balls on the road.

Why are we making that assumption?

Assuming they cheat equally at home and on the road is it statistically relevant that they fumble slightly less on the road? Or is there something else about the stats that calls the theory of them being cheating scumbags into question?

I seem to recall the Pats defense team claiming it was impossible to deflate 12 balls in a bathroom in 90 seconds before multiple people showed it was pretty easy to do on their first attempt without any practice. What makes you so sure that they are not pulling equally wonky shit off in their road games?

 

[Roberto Duran]

They don't have a ball boy to bring footballs into the bathroom for road games.

 

[bionic77]

I like how people have conveniently avoided addressing my last post. Can't explain it? Ignore it!

Anyway, could you people going on and on and on about how much of a "coincidence" it is that the Patriots fumble less please explain to me why in the last 5 years no one else has noticed "deflated" footballs after 44 Brady interceptions and 30 lost fumbles (since 2010)?

I mean seriously, this is stupid as hell. You mean someone could notice a football 2 PSI under the minimum during the AFC title game, but no one could in the 5 years before that? Fuck outta here. Fumbling has nothing to do with this. Like I said, 2 PSI under the minimum gets you at most 1 extra millimeter in grip. Take out your ruler and see if you can tell how much that is.

I look forward to more facts being ignored.

Assuming the Pats are guilty you are never going to know unless Brady or the ball boys or someone else in the organization comes forward and explains exactly what was going on. We are all just speculating at this point.

The other belief is that this is all just made up and the league is trying to continue to lie and make up more shit to cover itself from its first lie.

Pats fans will believe the latter no matter what. Many similar arguments were had after Spygate. Everyone else on the planet will continue to believe the Pats are cheaters and put asterisks next to all of their achievements.

You true believers can continue with your discussion. Sorry for getting it off track. Back to the NFL thread where I belong.

 

[TheContact]

Goodell also bailed the Pats out during SpyGate and burned the tapes before the public could inquire into their significance.

The Pats cheated before. They cheated again. The "deflator" and his buddy were punished. Brady and the Pats get to keep their Super Bowl. Brady should be relieved he plays in a league that allows him to retain his paper championships.

I don't like the Giants. I don't like the Cowboys. I don't like the Racists. I respect all three of those teams more than the Pats. They were frauds. The Pats made an Eagles fan hope the Giants would win in both of those Super Bowls.

The Giants are a football team. The Pats are self-righteous frauds that brazenly cheat every year. In a game of inches, the Pats took liberties with the game. Frauds.

Disgusting organization.

Goodell didn't bail out pats by destroying the tapes. If anything those tapes would have helped the patriots.

 

[Godslay]

http://www.backpicks.com/2015/05/17/fumbling-statistics-and-patriot-trends/

Funny how you exclude the most damning piece in your link. Which also points out the outlier (z-score of 2.70, which outliers typically fall in the range of less than -2.68 to greater than 2.68). Pats Z-Score of 2.70 nails that criteria to a T. They are on the extreme end of the curve.

Total Offense, Pats using their own doctored balls:

Using K Balls:

If the Pats are so good at not losing the ball, then why when they switch to K Balls their stats fall through the floor and are inline with the rest of the league?

E: Also before someone points out but what about ATL aren't they outliers too? By definition yes, however their fumble stats are actually reflective in both categories both with and without K-Balls. K-Balls being the outlier in that case.

 

[Xenus]

The most likely explanation is obviously that Lance Armstrong naturally has the lung capacity of 2 race horses. He is just a real life superhero obviously. We can ignore the less likely and improbable reason that he obviously doped and cheated like a motherfucker.

lol it's always the same story.

Cycling in the Lance Armstrong era was essentially the steroid era in baseball. No one knows who would have won clean cause they were all fucking cheaters. So that makes it kind of impressive just as what bonds, sosa, and mcguire did was impressive. Cause they would have been really good without being cheaters. Being a cheater just magnified it to awe inspiring levels.

 

[Quotient]

John Dowd has put together a website with deflategate facts.

http://www.deflategatefacts.com/

The NFL's investigation of and rules against Tom Brady are a travesty, and they've resulted in uncalled-for penalties. And it's all based on a report that lacks basic integrity, fairness and credibility.

 

[Gigglepoo]

Can anyone link me to the threads where we vilified the Vikings, Jets, and Panthers for manipulating balls? I can't seem to find them.

 

[Quotient]

Can anyone link me to the threads where we vilified the Vikings, Jets, and Panthers for manipulating balls? I can't seem to find them.

I don't even think the Jets employee who was tampering with the balls was even news at the time....

 

[ampere]

I'm glad that as a community we could come to an agreement on this issue.

 

[Quotient]

I'm glad that as a community we could come to an agreement on this issue.

and that agreement was?

 

[Gigglepoo]

I don't even think the Jets employee who was tampering with the balls was even news at the time....

Neither was the Vikings/Panthers incident last year.

 

[Fenderputty]

and that agreement was?

Goodell is a piece of shit?

 

[Godslay]

Systemic ball manipulation on an organizational level, versus heating some balls up on the sideline during a winter game.

I get that they are both rules violations, but to make them appear equal is missing the larger point.

Keep kicking the can down the road, I'm going to bed.

 

[Stinkles]

I like how people have conveniently avoided addressing my last post. Can't explain it? Ignore it!

Anyway, could you people going on and on and on about how much of a "coincidence" it is that the Patriots fumble less please explain to me why in the last 5 years no one else has noticed "deflated" footballs after 44 Brady interceptions and 30 lost fumbles (since 2010)?

I mean seriously, this is stupid as hell. You mean someone could notice a football 2 PSI under the minimum during the AFC title game, but no one could in the 5 years before that? Fuck outta here. Fumbling has nothing to do with this. Like I said, 2 PSI under the minimum gets you at most 1 extra millimeter in grip. Take out your ruler and see if you can tell how much that is.

I look forward to more facts being ignored.

Not even the saltiest of us thinks it makes much difference. Brady's vanity and pettiness are what drive our hatred. Not the stats.


For example, they deserve the Super Bowl even with the cheating IMO.


I assume our PEDs make far more difference than Brady's prettiness throw gas dissemble.

 

[hom3land]

Systemic ball manipulation on an organizational level, versus heating some balls up on the sideline during a winter game.

I get that they are both rules violations, but to make them appear equal is missing the larger point.

Keep kicking the can down the road, I'm going to bed.

Heating the balls.. That's only one incident that we know of. if they are willing to so brazenly cheat out in the open, imagine what they do when we aren't looking.

 

[ampere]

and that agreement was?

Tom Brady is a champion.

 

[JCizzle]

Systemic ball manipulation on an organizational level, versus heating some balls up on the sideline during a winter game.

I get that they are both rules violations, but to make them appear equal is missing the larger point.

Keep kicking the can down the road, I'm going to bed.

The larger point is that Roger sucks and people should be ashamed for believing him, he's a fucking joke as this mishandled ordeal has shown. This is more unifying than even Pats hate.

 

[Xenus]

and that agreement was?

You don't get sarcasm on the internet?

But seriously this is never going to end just like the Bonds/ARod/Armstrong stuff never ended until it finally came out they really were cheating. Without Brady admitting it there will always be a segment that considers him a cheater and a segment that doesn't.

 

[JCizzle]

Not even the saltiest of us thinks it makes much difference. Brady's vanity and pettiness are what drive our hatred. Not the stats.


For example, they deserve the Super Bowl even with the cheating IMO.


I assume our PEDs make far more difference than Brady's prettiness throw gas dissemble.

Exactly. Cheatin Pete is the greatest cheat this game has known in a long time but he continues to skate on by, I only call for punishment once the seahawks are punished for their systemic PED issues.

 

[Xenus]

The larger point is that Roger sucks and people should be ashamed for believing him, he's a fucking joke as this mishandled ordeal has shown. This is more unifying than even Pats hate.

I'd hope more people think he should be fired over the Ray Rice situation then the Patriots one.

 

[hom3land]

Seahawks haven't won a super bowl without a PED user on the roster.

 

[Stinkles]

Seahawks haven't won a super bowl without a PED user on the roster.

How unique

 

[JCizzle]

I'd hope more people think he should be fired over the Ray Rice situation then the Patriots one.

Pick one of any issue that he's screwed up, there are too many to count.

 

[not psycho]

The other belief is that this is all just made up and the league is trying to continue to lie and make up more shit to cover itself from its first lie.

Well, there's no doubt about the league lying, both directly and by omission.

They let the false report about the balls being 2+ PSI under the minimum stand (and they might be the ones who leaked it too). Even Tom Brady had no way to know the report was faked. That's why I don't read much into his being awkward at first: he was manipulated by the faked report. How certain would you be that nobody did anything wrong in the face of such a report?

Later we all found out, scientifically, that the balls were not deflated after all, or if they were only by a tiny amount that was consistent with not being deflated. That would certainly give Brady a bit more confidence in saying nobody did anything wrong.

Goodell then lied directly about what Brady said to him, and we only found out when the documents were unsealed. As expected, Brady did not deny talking to Jastremski about the ball controversy. The most natural thing in the world, upon hearing the faked report, and during preparation for the SB, would be to talk to Jastremski. If Brady had denied that it would be odd... but he didn't.

I'm not even sure what the point is. It has all been a lie. The balls were not deflated (or by a tiny amount), Brady did not deny talking about the issue, the early report was faked. The one true thing seems to be that the NFL did not understand that PSI drops naturally in cold weather.


Don't mind me though. I'll be over here reading all of Tom Brady's personal emails. Maybe one of them will contain the real reason he didn't give up his phone, despite being willing to give up all relevant texts.

 

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

E: Also before someone points out but what about ATL aren't they outliers too? By definition yes, however their fumble stats are actually reflective in both categories both with and without K-Balls. K-Balls being the outlier in that case.

Oh, glad you preemptively addressed that issue in a completely satisfying way. :-\

Out of curiosity, if ATL was being accused of tampering with K-balls somehow, would this be proof in your mind that the Falcons were dirty cheaters and that they should have asterisks next to all zero of their superbowl wins?

 

[Gigglepoo]

Kind of crazy that the Patriots have been deflating footballs for years and no team figured it out.

 

[30yearsofhurt]

So much pseudo science. We can does statiztikz!

 

[not psycho]

E: Also before someone points out but what about ATL aren't they outliers too? By definition yes, however their fumble stats are actually reflective in both categories both with and without K-Balls. K-Balls being the outlier in that case.

Atlanta's z score for special teams is higher than the Patriots z score for offense. Naively, you would think that makes Atlanta even more of an outlier. But remember that the statistics can be inherently flawed for several reasons, such as a lack of normality in the distribution, as well as a cherry picked range. Moreover, nobody would deny in the first place that there are other factors than randomness (of whatever distribution). Sports are not inherently random, teams are not inherently equal. Just because you can compute a z score doesn't mean you can interpret it meaningfully.


Interesting that the Green Bay offense doesn't fumble much, if Rodgers likes overinflated balls:

"I like to push the limits of how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do, see if the officials take the air out of it." - Phil Simms talking about Aaron Rodgers

Simms may be misinterpreting Rodgers, but at the very least he likes balls at the max inflation.

 

[Troy]

Kind of crazy that the Patriots have been deflating footballs for years and no team figured it out.

The world was too fixated on Peyton Manning tanking constantly in the biggest games to notice.

 

[CitizenCope]

Bucs fan here. Rule violations have happened in literally every NFL game that has ever been played. From traditional penalties like holding and pass interference to more nefarious things like PED use and salary cap violations. No matter what team you're a fan of, your team has done some shady shit. To treat the Patriots as a pariah is naive at best and reeks of jealousy, especially since there's no actual proof that a violation occured in this debacle. Just man up and admit your team sucks. It's okay to be a fan of a bad team.

This is beautiful, especially the last sentence.

 

[Roberto Duran]

John Dowd has put together a website with deflategate facts.

http://www.deflategatefacts.com/

He is also retired from Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld, the group now representing the NFL.

 

[Bread]

I get that they are both rules violations, but to make them appear equal is missing the larger point.

weird, i remember you doing this when you put Brady on the same level as Lance and Barry.

 

[ParityBit]

What do you guys think of Goodell going all in with the non-independent "independent" investigation admittance and him saying Brady went from "General awareness" to having “approved of, consented to, and provided inducements” to aid a scheme to deflate footballs?

 

[rjc571]

What do you guys think of Goodell going all in with the non-independent "independent" investigation admittance and him saying Brady went from "General awareness" to having “approved of, consented to, and provided inducements” to aid a scheme to deflate footballs?

It's gonna come back to bite him in the ass when Brady sues him for defamation.

 

[DrForester]

What do you guys think of Goodell going all in with the non-independent "independent" investigation admittance and him saying Brady went from "General awareness" to having “approved of, consented to, and provided inducements” to aid a scheme to deflate footballs?

It's all part of his power grab. He wins this and the players association is forever under his thumb. He will prove that he can do whatever the hell he wants, whenever he wants.

 

[Troy]

Sounds like Goodell and Wells did the same thing to Incognito and Jim Turner.

 

[Gigglepoo]

What do you guys think of Goodell going all in with the non-independent "independent" investigation admittance and him saying Brady went from "General awareness" to having “approved of, consented to, and provided inducements” to aid a scheme to deflate footballs?

He better have hard evidence proving his claim or he's going to be in a heap of trouble. Kind of insane that Brady's involvement has increased in Goodell's eyes after the hearing.

 

[Arc]

I find it hard to believe that NFL fans being objective still think Brady should be suspended. The implications on the whole league is astounding and if you really loved football you'd fear for its future with Goodell at the helm.

 

[ParityBit]

The Judge is really pushing for that settlement ....

https://twitter.com/MarkDanielsPJ/status/631105646218358784


I wonder which way he is leaning. In all honesty I think he is leaning towards the favor of Brady. The reason I think that is because going against the NFL could cause a cascade with the CBA, etc. With Brady it would not cause much of an effect (other than more power for Goodell)

 

[Deku Tree]

I find it hard to believe that NFL fans being objective still think Brady should be suspended. The implications on the whole league is astounding and if you really loved football you'd fear for its future with Goodell at the helm.

If the owners feared for the future of NFL football then they would fire Goodell or force him to resign. Seems like they don't.

 

[DrForester]

If the owners feared for the future of NFL football then they would fire Goodell or force him to resign. Seems like they don't.

I think they're being incredibly short sighted by allowing the commissioner to launch a smear campaign against any team and player he wishes for no reason at all. Just because right now, the target is a team they don't like.

 

[GK86]

Did they lock up Brady yet?

 

[Tawpgun]

The biggest tragedy of this situation is that people will keep talking about it when the new season starts.

The mountain out of mole hill aspect of this whole ordeal is incredible

 

[spyder_ur]

The biggest tragedy of this situation is that people will keep talking about it when the new season starts.

The mountain out of mole hill aspect of this whole ordeal is incredible

It's really incredible where we are now, and both sides are to blame. Not equally in my opinion, but it's an incredible display of ego and stubbornness.

 

[rjc571]

It's really incredible where we are now, and both sides are to blame. Not equally in my opinion, but it's an incredible display of ego and stubbornness.

Not really, unless you're victim-blaming the Patriots for demanding an apology. This was a completely one-sided botched sting operation that fell apart because the NFL didn't understand the laws of physics going in, nothing more nothing less.

 

[spyder_ur]

Not really, unless you're victim-blaming the Patriots for demanding an apology. This was a completely one-sided botched sting operation that fell apart because the NFL didn't understand the laws of physics going in, nothing more nothing less.

I'm a Patriots fan and I agree with all of that, but I also think the behavior and comments of Brady and Kraft at every turn escalated the situation rather than defusing it. You can say everything you've said and still think Brady's side handled it less than optimally.

 

[Quotient]

I'm a Patriots fan and I agree with all of that, but I also think the behavior and comments of Brady and Kraft at every turn escalated the situation rather than defusing it. You can say everything you've said and still think Brady's side handled it less than optimally.

What were their comments that you felt escalated the situation?