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[Redd]

It's a big deal when confirmed toddler punchers get away with it but supposed ball deflaters don't.

Its just 4 games though. If you want to actually punish Brady suspend him for a year without pay. 4 games is nothing really.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

The Patriots right now seemed more focused on their Quarterback than 2 equipment guys.

They're too busy to send an e-mail asking for reinstatement? As Pats fans are wont to bring up Murderers and wife beaters have been reinstated with less effort.

I don't know. Though i'd imagine they probably won't ever be reinstated especially McNally who didn't seem so fond of Brady in many of the text messages.

Irrelevant. If there was no wrongdoing not asking for reinstatement opens up both the Patriots and the NFL to a wrongful dismissal suit.

And those would be...?

Besides decreeing what should and shouldn't be relevant information ignoring the fact that regardless of what evidence was or wasn't on the phone Brady destroying it was an act of obstruction which is in direct opposition to the condition of the CBA the players signed off on.

As I said earlier, fuck the Wells report. If Brady was innocent he would have had zero reason to destroy that phone, yet did it anyway and didn't disclose the act until months later.

 

[Quotient]

Couldn't be too hard, Williams and the other Bounty gate coaches are back in the league making much more money than McNally and Jastremski.

I'd assume a coach would be harder position to fill than 2 equipment guys.

I'm not very familiar with the details of bounty gate, were the coaches rehiring dependent on NFL approval?

 

[KHarvey16]

Besides decreeing what should and shouldn't be relevant information...

I didn't. Again, the investigation was given every text message sent between Brady and the equipment guys. There are no more messages.

...ignoring the fact that regardless of what evidence was or wasn't on the phone Brady destroying it was an act of obstruction which is in direct opposition to the condition of the CBA the players signed off on.

No it isn't. There is no clause in the CBA that allows the investigation to demand his phone or private correspondence. He still provided them with logs and emails to allow them to confirm what they set out to confirm.

As I said earlier, fuck the Wells report. If Brady was innocent he would have had zero reason to destroy that phone, yet did it anyway and didn't disclose the act until months later.

They were never going to get his phone. Destroying it was completely irrelevant.

 

[TheContact]

They're too busy to send an e-mail asking for reinstatement?



Irrelevant. If there was no wrongdoing not asking for reinstatement opens up both the Patriots and the NFL to a wrongful dismissal suit.



Besides decreeing what should and shouldn't be relevant information ignoring the fact that regardless of what evidence was or wasn't on the phone Brady destroying it was an act of obstruction which is in direct opposition to the condition of the CBA the players signed off on.

As I said earlier, fuck the Wells report. If Brady was innocent he would have had zero reason to destroy that phone, yet did it anyway and didn't disclose the act until months later.

You seem obsessed with getting those ball boys their job back and less obsessed with the actual meaningful (Mis)information going on here. Brady gave them all the information they needed. He was under no obligation to turn over his phone and there's reasons for that besides an admission of guilt which you can't seem to get past--he has rights as a citizen. I'm so glad that you would hand anyone your cell phone with irrelevant private information even if it wouldn't make a difference since they had all the information they needed anyway, but not everyone is as eager to hand over their private life to investigators who could get that information elsewhere

 

[Spectral Glider]

I'm not very familiar with the details of bounty gate, were the coaches rehiring dependent on NFL approval?

To my knowledge, Williams was the only one suspended indefinitely while the others were for a certain period of time that season. Williams had to apply for reinstatement which was granted about a year after his initial suspension.

 

[turtle553]

I didn't. Again, the investigation was given every text message sent between Brady and the equipment guys. There are no more messages.



No it isn't. There is no clause in the CBA that allows the investigation to demand his phone or private correspondence. He still provided them with logs and emails to allow them to confirm what they set out to confirm.



They were never going to get his phone. Destroying it was completely irrelevant.

The messages that were deleted and had to be recovered?

“Although Renaissance was able to retrieve limited information about certain deleted messages from Jastremski’s phone, the contact information could not be fully recovered. In addition, Renaissance was unable to determine with certainty when the recovered messages were deleted or whether there were other relevant deleted messages (i.e., deleted messages that left no recoverable information at all).”

 

[KHarvey16]

The messages that were deleted and had to be recovered?

They had all of them, yes. They had Brady's logs to confirm there wasn't any missing.

 

[Quotient]

The messages that were deleted and had to be recovered?

Those messages were not with Brady (Page 77 of the Wells report).

Brady's team provided a log of all text messages (not content) to and from John Jastremski and they match up with every text that Well's has from Jastremski's phone.

"Tom's phone billing record from this timeframe shows that he never spoke on the phone or texted with McNally, ever," Yee said. "Tom's phone billing record shows that nearly every communication with Jastremki was already in possession of Wells' team with exception of three texts between Tom and Jastremski on Feb. 7. Every other communication he ever had with Jastremski in that time period was already in the hands of Wells' team. They also had any communication between Tom and the equipment manager (Dave) Schoenfeld."

 

[entremet]

I'm still surprised Godell went in so hard.

I thought it would be reduced to 2 games.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I didn't. Again, the investigation was given every text message sent between Brady and the equipment guys. There are no more messages.

And? That does not definitively say that everything else on the phone was not relevant or that Brady didn't have correspondence with other non player members about the deflated balls. What if Brady was texting Belichick about it? We have no idea. Saying it is not relevant is cherrypicking..

No it isn't. There is no clause in the CBA that allows the investigation to demand his phone or private correspondence. He still provided them with logs and emails to allow them to confirm what they set out to confirm.

Good thing I never said there was a clause that demanded private correspondence.

They were never going to get his phone. Destroying it was completely irrelevant.

Again, according to whom. You?

It is relevant in the fact that they used that as justification to not reduce his suspension alone. It is absolutely relevant.

 

[Quotient]

And? That does not definitively say that everything else on the phone was not relevant or that Brady didn't have correspondence with other non player members about the deflated balls. What if Brady was texting Belichick about it? We have no idea. Saying it is not relevant is cherrypicking..

The NFL had Belichick's phone too. The NFL had all non-union patriot employee phones.

And we had already provided the league with every cellphone of every non-NFLPA that they requested, including head coach Bill Belichick.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/29/robert-kraft-tees-off-on/

 

[KHarvey16]

And? That does not definitively say that everything else on the phone was not relevant or that Brady didn't have correspondence with other non player members about the deflated balls. What if Brady was texting Belichick about it? We have no idea. Saying it is not relevant is cherrypicking..

The investigation was given Belichick's phone and there was nothing on it. They could have followed up with any number in the logs Brady handed over.

Good thing I never said there was a clause that demanded private correspondence.

You called not handing over the information obstruction in direct opposition of the CBA. It wasn't.

Again, according to whom. You?

It is relevant in the fact that they used that as justification to not reduce his suspension alone. It is absolutely relevant.

You're spiraling into a pit of circular reasoning.

 

[TheContact]

Goodell destroyed spygate evidence too because it could "fall In the wrong hands" but in fact could have shown that the spygate incident wasn't as big as everyone made it out to be but we'll never know for sure

 

[Spectral Glider]

I'm still surprised Godell went in so hard.

I thought it would be reduced to 2 games.

He proved me wrong about everything on this one. First, I thought their investigation would find nothing at all. Thought it was a stall tactic just to get past the super bowl and then get everyone to forget about it. Then, after the Pat fines, I thought he'd just slap Brady on the wrist and let the fines be the main punishment. And then after Brady's 4 game suspension, I also figured he'd chop it down as that's usually his MO. But he's stood strong on everything. There's obviously something more to this case that makes him and the league feel so strongly about it.

 

[Quotient]

He proved me wrong about everything on this one. First, I thought their investigation would find nothing at all. Thought it was a stall tactic just to get past the super bowl and then get everyone to forget about it. Then, after the Pat fines, I thought he'd just slap Brady on the wrist and let the fines be the main punishment. And then after Brady's 4 game suspension, I also figured he'd chop it down as that's usually his MO. But he's stood strong on everything. There's obviously something more to this case that makes him and the league feel so strongly about it.

Do you think he got himself stuck between a rock and a hard place, i.e. the owners who would like to see the Patriots punished and Kraft his ex-ally?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

The investigation was given Belichick's phone and there was nothing on it. They could have followed up with any number in the logs Brady handed over.



You called not handing over the information obstruction in direct opposition of the CBA. It wasn't.



You're spiraling into a pit of circular reasoning.

Glass houses bro.

Instead of continuing to circle this toilet bowl of a discussion I will ask you - If Brady and the Patriots are completely innocent (as Brady attests), why:

Did Kraft Sheepishly accept the loss of draft picks and the biggest fine in league history after publicly damning the entire process, twice?

Haven't the Patriots made efforts to have McNally and Jastremski reinstated?

Hasn't Brady taken this to court yet (The NFLPA has sad numerous times that all Brady has to do is say the word)?

Did Goodell ask to have his decision backed up by a NY Federal Court?

 

[KHarvey16]

Did Kraft Sheepishly accept the loss of draft picks and the biggest fine in league history after publicly damning the entire process, twice?

This was explicitly addressed today during his press conference. Did you miss it?

Haven't the Patriots made efforts to have McNally and Jastremski reinstated?

I have no idea. Considering the NFL has not budged on it's position, I suspect not. To consider this some kind of implicit admission that the Patriots know they're caught is utterly bizarre.

Hasn't Brady taken this to court yet (The NFLPA has sad numerous times that all Brady has to do is say the word)?

The player's association has sued on his behalf, yes. What exactly are you paying attention to, if anything? All of this has been discussed right here in the thread.

 

[Broank]

The phone hoopala just seems like a red herring by the NFL since the footballs weren't even out of the ordinary in the end. Also the fact that the NFL had all the relevant communications where Brady actually told Jastremski to let the refs know the rules.

Heck it wasn't even a rule the NFL had spelled out or had punishments for then all the sudden they are running millions of dollar months long investigations. lol

 

[Quotient]

I have come to the conclusion that this was never about doing what was fair and just. Back in May, I had to make a difficult decision that I now regret. I tried to do what I thought was right. I chose not to take legal action. I wanted to return the focus to football.

I have been negotiating agreements on a global basis my entire life. I know there are times when you have to give up important points of principle to achieve a greater good. I acted in good faith and was optimistic that by taking the actions I took the league would have what they wanted. I was willing to accept the harshest penalty in the history of the NFL for an alleged ball violation because I believed it would help exonerate Tom.

Kraft was hoping if he accepted the team punishments that it may have helped Brady's situation. Also i would suspect taking your other business partners to court is never a winning move, and court was the only option Kraft has.

 

[Elwood Blues]

You don't even need to see Brady's phone to know he did it. His down-field passing accuracy is terrible. He needs as little air in the ball as possible so his weak arm can get it down the field. The only reason he completes any passes that travel through the air more than 15 yards is Gronk's catch radius.

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

I love how ridiculously bad the Wells report is is ignored and it's simply a fact now that there was wrongdoing. It's becoming more and more clear, if that was even necessary, that most couldn't possibly care less about the actual evidence. The conclusions were not reasoned into and reasoning you and others out of them isn't easy or perhaps even possible.

GAF is usually very critical about all things remaining certain except when it regards the Patriots of course.

 

[Quotient]

You don't even need to see Brady's phone to know he did it. His down-field passing accuracy is terrible. He needs as little air in the ball as possible so his weak arm can get it down the field. The only reason he completes any passes that travel through the air more than 15 yards is Gronk's catch radius.

It is the opposite. The more pressure in the football the further it travels. A football with a high psi would be easier to throw deep.

Unless you are referring to grip, then yes a lower PSI football would be easier to grip and throw.

 

[Spectral Glider]

Do you think he got himself stuck between a rock and a hard place, i.e. the owners who would like to see the Patriots punished and Kraft his ex-ally?

I honestly don't see that the other owners care. They are making money hand over fist regardless of who wins and how.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

This was explicitly addressed today during his press conference. Did you miss it?

It was not addressed. Kraft said he wished he had challenged it. Those are just words. Rhetoric. When he had the opportunity he didn't. Not the actions of a man who heads an organization that is "completely innocent".

I have no idea. Considering the NFL has not budged on it's position, I suspect not. To consider this some kind of implicit admission that the Patriots know they're caught is utterly bizarre.

On its own, quite innocuous. In addition to the other points in the case? Damning.

IThe player's association has sued on his behalf, yes. What exactly are you paying attention to, if anything? All of this has been discussed right here in the thread.

Forgive me, I hadn't realized that the NFLPA sued on Brady's behalf. Still, they are suing for process, not on the grounds of Brady's innocence.

 

[KHarvey16]

GAF is usually very critical about all things remaining certain except when it regards the Patriots of course.

Throw sports allegiances into the mix and people lose their minds.

It was not addressed. Kraft said he wished he had challenged it. Those are just words. Rhetoric. When he had the opportunity he didn't. Not the actions of a man who heads an organization that is "completely innocent".

It's quoted above. You should read it.

On its own, quite innocuous. In addition to the other points in the case? Damning.

You're being ridiculous.

Forgive me, I hadn't realized that the NFLPA sued on Brady's behalf. Still, they are suing for process, not on the grounds of Brady's innocence.

Because that's what they can sue for? I don't understand what you think this means. Do you believe they aren't suing for a thing they can't sue for because they know he's guilty?

This is the type of twisted, nonsensical logic required to cling to this circus show narrative you're so attached to. There isn't even any evidence that the balls were ever tampered with! Irrelevant you say, probably because you don't actually care about the facts. It's clear you've made no attempt to actually understand this situation.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Throw sports allegiances into the mix and people lose their minds.



It's quoted above. You should read it.



You're being ridiculous.



Because that's what they can sue for? I don't understand what you think this means. Do you believe they aren't suing for a thing they can't sue for because they know he's guilty?

This is the type of twisted, nonsensical logic required to cling to this circus show narrative you're so attached to. There isn't even any evidence that the balls were ever tampered with! Irrelevant you say, probably because you don't actually care about the facts. It's clear you've made no attempt to actually understand this situation.

Oh man.

I asked you originally why BRADY hasn't sued the NFL. The PA is suing on his behalf, but they are only suing for process. If brady was as completely innocent as he claims he would have shot at the league with a defamation lawsuit.

 

[KHarvey16]

Oh man.

I asked you originally why BRADY hasn't sued the NFL. The PA is suing on his behalf, but they are only suing for process. If brady was as completely innocent as he claims he would have shot at the league with a defamation lawsuit.

Why would he do that now? Why would a defamation lawsuit keep the league from imposing the suspension?

And again with this ridiculous reasoning. You believe that the reason he isn't suing them personally is that he knows he's guilty? You're whole process here makes no sense.

 

[Quotient]

Oh man.

I asked you originally why BRADY hasn't sued the NFL. The PA is suing on his behalf, but they are only suing for process. If brady was as completely innocent as he claims he would have shot at the league with a defamation lawsuit.

Defamation lawsuits are ridiculous hard to contest - you have to prove that they knowingly have said statements that are false.

“Brady would need to show that not only were public statements made about him false and damaging to his reputation, but he’d have to show those statements were made with actual malice, which means knowingly or intentionally,”

 

[KHarvey16]

Defamation lawsuits are ridiculous hard to contest - you have to prove that they knowingly have said statements that are false.

Yup. His status as a public figure imposes that additional requirement on a defamation suit.

 

[Arc]

Where has Chris Mortenson been? Has he had to answer for his completely bogus report that broke this story?

 

[ViperVisor]

Anyone ever took a shot at explaining how it was started up? The Colts took a wild stab in the dark with the most lame-ass fan-fiction ever?

On Jan. 17, one day before the game, Grigson sent an email to senior league officials that was direct and to the point.

The Colts, he wrote, had reason to believe the Patriots were inflating their footballs to improperly low levels and the team wanted the league's assurances this would not happen in its biggest game of the season.

The message contained passages from a previous one Grigson had received from Colts equipment manager Sean Sullivan. He stated: "It is well known around the league that after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on so that they don't get an illegal advantage."

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...il-new-england-patriots-deflategate/70940172/

Or... is it that Equipment dudes that work with teams know their shit? They are super dedicated to their little part in the game. Likely some of these guys know each-other and asked around as they occasionally got to hold a Pats football and they thought 'this doesn't feel up to regulation'.

NOPE

*Bathroom trip with balls was a coincidence
*11 of 12 footballs under the limit was misunderstanding of science coincidence
*The Deflator joke was a coincidence
*Brady on record liking low inflation level balls was a coincidence

 

[Deku Tree]

Interestingly, when Grigson, Sullivan and other Colts employees were interviewed by investigators after the fact, they were asked how they came to believe the Patriots were under-inflating balls. The Colts cited suspicions stemming from their regular-season game against the Patriots in Week 11, when Mike Adams intercepted two Patriots' footballs. Colts equipment staffers noticed those balls were "coated in a tacky substance and seemed spongy or soft when squeezed."

From that article...


So what is the "tacky substance" that might have been on the balls? Are the Pats also putting sticky stuff on their balls too?

 

[ManUtdRedDevils]

I feel bad for Robert Kraft. He seems like a nice father trying to stand up for his "good" son that everyone knows is a total bastard.

Brady did it. His first address to the media after it broke is all you needed to know that he was guilty.

Personally, I don't think it is a big deal, but I love the drama

 

[rokkerkory]

Pats gonna go 10-6 this season if this holds up.

 

[Kinsella]

From that article...


So what is the "tacky substance" that might have been on the balls? Are the Pats also putting sticky stuff on their balls too?

The balls were intercepted by defenders who liberally applied stick-um to their hands.

 

[ViperVisor]

It isn't a big deal in a vacuum.

A single instance of going outside the rules to mold the football to your liking during a game is a swear jaw level penalty.

But when it appears it's premeditated, systematic, happened in the playoffs and followed by a sham indignant response. You are getting a hefty penalty.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Defamation lawsuits are ridiculous hard to contest - you have to prove that they knowingly have said statements that are false.

That is precisely what Brady is alleging. Despite being completely in the right the Pats are really rolling over on a lot of points.

 

[TheApatheticOne]

If this holds up, how big are the Sunday Night Football ratings for Tom's first game back in Indianapolis? Haha

 

[Saint Gregory]

Anyone ever took a shot at explaining how it was started up? The Colts took a wild stab in the dark with the most lame-ass fan-fiction ever?



http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...il-new-england-patriots-deflategate/70940172/

Or... is it that Equipment dudes that work with teams know their shit? They are super dedicated to their little part in the game. Likely some of these guys know each-other and asked around as they occasionally got to hold a Pats football and they thought 'this doesn't feel up to regulation'.

NOPE

*Bathroom trip with balls was a coincidence
*11 of 12 footballs under the limit was misunderstanding of science coincidence
*The Deflator joke was a coincidence
*Brady on record liking low inflation level balls was a coincidence

You pretty much summarized the exact points I brought up to my hardcore-Patriot fan brother. You can add to the list of total coincidences that Tom's 4 month-old phone broke so badly that it had to be replaced and destroyed right around the time of the investigation.

The real point here is that what Tom was involved with in terms of the balls being deflated intentionally or not isn't why he's been suspended. He's been suspended specifically for obstructing the leagues investigation into the ball handling. Patriots fans like to jump up and down proclaiming that the league couldn't prove that anything sinister happened with the balls but the league's argument is the reason that they couldn't prove anything is because a central figure in the investigation failed to cooperate fully.

As Hilary Clinton is now finding out when you use your personal electronic devices to conduct work business they're no longer just personal devices. The league had every right to ask to see the phone. Tom also had the right to deny them access to the phone but if he felt that strongly about protecting his personal privacy and the privacy of the other players then he can also enjoy his martyrdom and eat this 4 game suspension. You don' t get to have everything your way 100% of the time, even when you're Tom Brady.

 

[The Albatross]

Albert Breer reporting that the NFL pre-emptively taking this to court has paid off:

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer

Per court documents, Judge Kyle in MN has ordered the Brady/NFLPA lawsuit against the NFL be moved to the Manhattan court where NFL filed.

NFL preemptive strike worked. Court doc: "In this Court’s view, therefore, the New York Action triggers application of the 1st-filed rule."

What a circus, this is amazing.

 

[rokkerkory]

Albert Breer reporting that the NFL pre-emptively taking this to court has paid off:

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer

What a circus, this is amazing.

Wow they planned this masterfully

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Tony Dungy having a meltdown yesterday on ESPN after the press conference was really funny.

He points to, "IT'S THE SHIELD!!!!", completely negating that if the NFL actually gave a shit they would have

1) had proper proceeder in place to check the balls in all games
2) measured the balls before the first half instead of letting half the game be "tainted".

Tony is a cool dude, but that was kinda embarrassing.


With all this news coming into place, with the constant reporting that turned to to be mostly bullshit but still shaped public opinion, it's obvious this was a huge sting operation. Now why the NFL wanted to attempt to destroy the image of Tom Brady, I have no fucking idea.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Wow they planned this masterfully

That's not something you hear said very often about the NFL front office. I personally feel that the entire way they've handled this ordeal has been a shit show from the beginning but they've clearly learned a lot from the other cases where their suspensions have been overturned.

With all this news coming into place, with the constant reporting that turned to to be mostly bullshit but still shaped public opinion, it's obvious this was a huge sting operation. Now why the NFL wanted to attempt to destroy the image of Tom Brady, I have no fucking idea.

They wouldn't have, which is why I think it would be a good idea for everyone supporting Brady and the Pats to take a step back and think about this situation rationally. Maybe nothing did happen with the balls that broke rules the the way that Brady specifically has acted from the very beginning of this story breaking has been both shady and self-serving. It's yet another case of a cover-up (or attempted cover-up) being worse than the actual crime.

 

[chadskin]

A plane is set to fly over New England Patriots practice with a banner message reading 'Cheaters Look Up!'

http://www.metro.us/sports/new-england-patriots-cheaters-look-up/zsJogD---bDJLBiox274mA/

Glorious!

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

With all this news coming into place, with the constant reporting that turned to to be mostly bullshit but still shaped public opinion, it's obvious this was a huge sting operation. Now why the NFL wanted to attempt to destroy the image of Tom Brady, I have no fucking idea.

I'm convinced it has to be due to Goodell's ego. This case is the last jenga piece for Goodell's legitimacy within the league. He's botched so many other cases during his tenure, that it seems he is maniacal to have something go the way he wants it to, regardless of the motives or loopholes he uses to achieve it.

If the suspension were to be reduced or if Brady was allowed to have some semblance of leniency, it would continue to throw Goodell's own perception of power into limbo. The dude is dealing with a ego crisis and decided to mark Tom as the victim of his zealotry to power.

 

[ViperVisor]

1) had proper proceeder in place to check the balls in all games
2) measured the balls before the first half instead of letting half the game be "tainted".

1. They do. *Refs take the balls the team prepares and confirms they fit the requirements.
2. They did. *Refs approved balls were tampered with post inspection according to half-time measurements

 

[Dosia]

I love how the independent Wells report was edited by the NFL before public release. Fucking Roger.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

1. They do. *Refs take the balls the team prepares and confirms they fit the requirements.
2. They did. *Refs approved balls were tampered with post inspection according to half-time measurements

1) No, I'm not talking about final check, I'm talking about constant inspection in all games between periods and in half time. There was zero protocol before three days ago to do this.

2) I'm talking about why the NFL didn't seem to think this was important enough to prevent this in the AFC Championship game. They were "tipped off" by the Colts, yet they didn't think to check the balls much earlier in the game.

 

[Kinsella]

Albert Breer reporting that the NFL pre-emptively taking this to court has paid off:

https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer





What a circus, this is amazing.

What's truly awful is that people are either rooting for the Patriots or the NFL.