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[SneakyStephan]

I'm getting pretty tired of the dota has the worst community stereotype. Every single game I've played online has had assholes playing them too.

Just yesterday I was kicked from a cs go match because I didn't listen to this guys direction one round.

Mobas are by design going to attract a different type of personality and by design make people more hostile.

A: the entire game is designed around denying your opponent's every play and not letting them play the game (denying last hits, sending people back to heal, not letting them level up, not letting them get gold, not letting them jungle, taking away control of their character)

B: the game snowballs like mad to the point where the person who was on the backfoot will get stomped with more ease as the match goes on.
Comebacks are possible but laborious and slow, mostly only by turtling and denying your enemy finishing off the game until you can catch up to the level cap.
(turtling in a game like ns2 is considered bad form and people don't do it once they understand the game, same goes for other games: bad form, in mobas it's your only out often)
This means that any player on your team can be considered a huge liability (feeding) which does not help team spirit or solidarity.

C: a quarter of the match is spent min maxing your character development (last hitting, jungling, denying) in a way that is extremely tedious and laborious and involves risk taking.
The process itself is not fun (a means to try to get to the more fun part of the match) and if it backfires it leads to frustration.


Point A means it'll attract the kind of people who get their jollies out of this

Point B means people will frustrate not only themselves and their opponents but their teammates as well
It becomes hard for people to enjoy individual plays because they have to worry about things snowballing out of their control to where they have no chance to enjoy future plays during that match

Point C means people need to push their own willpower to 'work' for a possible pay off where the currency is fun or reward or for most people point A (not letting your opponent have fun)

The entire game is by design an asshole trap and a compulsion loop.


I got into the dota beta fairly early and the first few matches I spectated were full with spectators shittalking everything the players did and the players shittalking and being assholes to eachother, it is as bad as league of legends.
Beta is usually the time where people behave and are a bit more mindful of eachother, only in mobas do people go straight into little cunt mode.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

Didn't get far into the video at all. So many douche chills.

 

[Sedinus]

Jersey Shore, gaming edition.

 

[eot]

Recoil in cs meant that you had to aim before you shoot (until css and cs go came along with reduced recoil, hence why much of the cs community doesn't like those games).
You had to make your shots count, and the self control aspect of the game (you needed to wait for the spread to reset before firing again, but not too long or you die yourself) was an entire meta game.

It's immensely rewarding and adds another layer onto the skill cap and learning curve.

Yeah the recoil mechanics are really what make CS into what it is so it's strange that no one has tried to replicate it. Half the reason it's satisfying to get frags in CS is because it's inherently much harder to hit people than in most games but the lethality of the weapons is still there if you use them right. If you just put CS 1.6 on consoles though it would suck just as bad as Quake 3 because there's not enough precision in the controls to consistently get headshots and it would just make the game weird. Then add to that the fact that all the games are hosted locally by one of the players. They get away with that because again between the sticky aim and imprecise inputs no one will notice the shitty net performance. It's not a comparable experience at all.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

Trash talking is a fine art, I do a fair share of shit talking in online games, but using racism is such a poor and mundane way to do it. You gotta think creatively, get in peoples heads, hell change your name like I do, nothing rages ragers more in tf2 than getting schooled by some dude named "Happy Fun Kitten".

 

[Frankenstrat]

The rage of xbox live, distilled into one tourney full of anger.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

The power of Xbox Live. TEH POWER!!!!

 

[Spazznid]

I shouldn't, but as a person who dislikes Microsoft as a company, I like that the default response is "Xbox Live >_>"


I wholly agree. Out of spite.

 

[SneakyStephan]

Yeah the recoil mechanics are really what make CS into what it is so it's strange that no one has tried to replicate it. Half the reason it's satisfying to get frags in CS is because it's inherently much harder to hit people than in most games but the lethality of the weapons is still there if you use them right. If you just put CS 1.6 on consoles though it would suck just as bad as Quake 3 because there's not enough precision in the controls to consistently get headshots and it would just make the game weird. Then add to that the fact that all the games are hosted locally by one of the players. They get away with that because again between the sticky aim and imprecise inputs no one will notice the shitty net performance. It's not a comparable experience at all.

Many have tried but they all failed

The thing about cs is that the combination of:
-netcode
-hit detection
-feedback (the exaggerated headshot animation that tells you within 1-2 frames if you headshot or not)
-the extremely punishing recoil that eliminated most randomness (cs 1.6 patch already kind of messed this one up, a lot of people were angry about that)

meant that every death felt like your opponent deserved it, every kill felt like you earned it, every missed shot was your own fault.
It's crazy how consistent it was, that is what made this self control aspect work.
You only feel rewarded with this mechanic if it is consistent, once it isn't it leads to frustration.
Consistency combined with recoil was unheard of and it still hasn't been replicated.
This is why cs 1.6 still has 40.000 + consecutive players online 24 hours a day 365 days a year (the other cs games also have high player numbers but they aren't as good feedback wise nor consistency wise so they are less popular)

It's not something you can just replicate unless you already have an engine (and a community with servers) that sports highly consistent netcode and hit detection.

Most clones didn't have this and they all failed miserably because people weren't fooled, they were used to the bar set by cs.

CS was the game where every experienced player rarely fired more shots than needed.
You knew if you were successful (once you mastered the self control aspect and knew the timing for the recoil reset on each gun) the moment you pressed that mouse button.
And every time you had confirmation of your success or failure within 1 or 2 frames.

There are few things in gaming more satisfying than seeing an enemy pop out from behind a corner at a very long distance, firing two shots (or however many times your specific weapon requires you to at that range, glock had a large damage drop off at range for example and could take 14 bodyshots at range and took 4 headshots) and no more and landing a well deserved kill.
All while knowing that if you mess it up even slightly then 20 shots wouldn't get the job done. (why hardcore mode is fucking stupid in other games unless you are playing it as a sim and treating it as a positioning game)

Feedback and consistency is a BIG deal in games but very very few developers know how to provide either.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Wow people are shocked that humans get emotional in competitions?

srsly, nobody here have been to a playground, playin basketball, handball etc?? people dont know what pro-athlethes say on the court/field/ice??

No I dont condone excessive cursing and stuff, but to act like this is some "omg gamers are sux" is pretty ridiculous in context.

Plus this vid is probably a long tourney/set edited down to a few minutes.

 

[injurai]

Wow people are shocked that humans get emotional in competitions?

srsly, nobody here have been to a playground, playin basketball, handball etc?? people dont know what pro-athlethes say on the court/field/ice??

No I dont condone excessive cursing and stuff, but to act like this is some "omg gamers are sux" is pretty ridiculous in context.

Plus this vid is probably a long tourney/set edited down to a few minutes.

SC2 pro scene sets a really good example. Even dota which has one of the most horrific communities has a very respectable pro scene.

TF2 and CS 1.6/S had well behaved scenes.

 

[Spazznid]

Wow people are shocked that humans get emotional in competitions?

srsly, nobody here have been to a playground, playin basketball, handball etc?? people dont know what pro-athlethes say on the court/field/ice??

No I dont condone excessive cursing and stuff, but to act like this is some "omg gamers are sux" is pretty ridiculous in context.

Plus this vid is probably a long tourney/set edited down to a few minutes.

Starcraft and MOBA tourneys don't look like this, do they?

(Honestly I've not watched them in a while)

Gentlemen don't act like this, and us gamers all like to think of ourselves as Gentlemen.

 

[MIMIC]

Oh wow, someone needs to unlock the meds perk.

lol

 

[TheExodu5]

Many have tried but they all failed

The thing about cs is that the combination of:
-netcode
-hit detection
-feedback (the exaggerated headshot animation that tells you within 1-2 frames if you headshot or not)
-the extremely punishing recoil that eliminated most randomness (cs 1.6 patch already kind of messed this one up, a lot of people were angry about that)

meant that every death felt like you deserved it, every kill felt like you earned it, every missed shot was your own fault.
It's crazy how consistent it was, that is what made this self control aspect work.
You only feel rewarded with this mechanic if it is consistent, once it isn't it leads to frustration.
Consistency combined with recoil was unheard of and it still hasn't been replicated.
This is why cs 1.6 still has 40.000 + consecutive players online 24 hours a day 365 days a year (the other cs games also have high player numbers but they aren't as good feedback wise nor consistency wise so they are less popular)

It's not something you can just replicate unless you already have an engine (and a community with servers) that sports highly consistent netcode and hit detection.

Most clones didn't have this and they all failed miserably because people weren't fooled, they were used to the bar set by cs.

CS was the game where every experienced player rarely fired more shots than needed.
You knew if you were successful (once you mastered the self control aspect and knew the timing for the recoil reset on each gun) the moment you pressed that mouse button.
And every time you had confirmation of your success or failure within 1 or 2 frames.

There are few things in gaming more satisfying than seeing an enemy pop out from behind a corner at a very long distance, firing two shots (or however many times your specific weapon requires you to at that range, glock had a large damage drop off at range for example and could take 14 bodyshots at range and took 4 headshots) and no more and landing a well deserved kill.
All while knowing that if you mess it up even slightly then 20 shots wouldn't get the job done. (why hardcore mode is fucking stupid in other games unless you are playing it as a sim and treating it as a positioning game)

Feedback and consistency is a BIG deal in games but very very few developers know how to provide either.

This is a great post and really details what makes CS's mechanics so satisfying.

 

[GQman2121]

Wow people are shocked that humans get emotional in competitions?

srsly, nobody here have been to a playground, playin basketball, handball etc?? people dont know what pro-athlethes say on the court/field/ice??

No I dont condone excessive cursing and stuff, but to act like this is some "omg gamers are sux" is pretty ridiculous in context.

Plus this vid is probably a long tourney/set edited down to a few minutes.

It's obviously not fair to place a label or have these kids represent "gamers" as a whole. However, they're clearly the asshats you hear about on Live that can't help but talk shit when behind the protection of anonymity.

In this case, it has boiled over and instead of being a good sports and behaving like gentlemen, they revert to the only way they know how to act.

 

[oatmeal]

So maybe Jack Thompson was right...

 

[Kai Dracon]

Wow people are shocked that humans get emotional in competitions?

srsly, nobody here have been to a playground, playin basketball, handball etc?? people dont know what pro-athlethes say on the court/field/ice??

No I dont condone excessive cursing and stuff, but to act like this is some "omg gamers are sux" is pretty ridiculous in context.

Plus this vid is probably a long tourney/set edited down to a few minutes.

To be fair, many are comparing this to other competitive games where there's markedly different behavior in the competitors. The fighting game community, for all the trash talk by stream monsters, seems to have a great reputation for people acting mature and composed at pro level competition.

Starcraft as well seems to have more general sportsmanship (and greater enforcement of it, I gather).

This video looks embarrassing cuz those dudes come across like actual 13 year old boys on Xbox Live.

 

[Grief.exe]

I remember the Halo fans playing next to the Counter-Strike fans back in the day, and the Halo fans were just fine.

This seems to be a Call of Duty thing, not a console thing. Call of Duty attracts the lowest common denominator of gaming scum.

Makes sense considering the skill ceiling is also the lowest by a fair margin and the game is exclusively targeting the lowest common denominator.

 

[SneakyStephan]

This is a great post and really details what makes CS's mechanics so satisfying.

If any other dev ever manages to replicate the feedback and consistency of cs they are sitting on a fucking goldmine in a huge untapped market all for themselves.
I wonder if any of the publishers even realise anymore.
They all gave up trying a long time ago.

 

[Cassius]

Now that's a sport.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I would fine every single one of them, right out of any prize money they were going to get.

 

[dc89]

So embarrassing. Really, is this what people find entertaining? Shit the bed.

 

[Grief.exe]

I'd be interested in watching the actual play from this tournament.

What brief gameplay we did see from the video was pretty awful.

All I saw was missing, poor communication, and horrible positioning. That is pretty much the trifecta of competitive play and it seemed to be thrown out the window.

Anyone find some footage of this? Twitch apparently had some, but I'm not familiar with their site.

https://twitter.com/TwitchTV/status/313296461204951041

EDIT: Oh god, now I am reminded why I don't browse Twitch...this is one of their top videos

http://www.twitch.tv/legendarylea/c/2033550

 

[Takuya]

Thank goodness some people don't have to pay to listen to this. lol

 

[params7]

Are people surprised FPS tournaments can turn into diss-fests? Do people here even play these games online with chat on?

The tournament holders here can actually ban verbal comments like that, I think MLG does, I watch a lot of Blops 2 tournies there and its mostly all civil. Then I watch tourny streams from private LAN organizers and trust me atmosphere there makes OP vid look like a joke. Not 3 seconds go by without someone shouting an abusive comment.

 

[sn00zer]

I feel sooo bad for the Marketing guy.... imagine trying to keep a straight face defending these assholes

 

[Nokterian]

Wow no wonder that at MLG no less then 30.000 people are watching Black Ops 2 tournament finals and that SC2 and even LoL where much higher. But damn what a bunch of kids yelling and whining..pathetic.

Edit :

This reminds me of this guy back in the day with World of Warcraft,hilarious!

MOAR DOTS!

 

[Grief.exe]

Are people surprised FPS tournaments can turn into diss-fests? Do people here even play these games online with chat on?

The tournament holders here can actually ban verbal comments like that, I think MLG does, I watch a lot of Blops 2 tournies there and its mostly all civil. Then I watch tourny streams from private LAN organizers and trust me atmosphere there makes OP vid look like a joke. Not 3 seconds go by without someone shouting an abusive comment.

Shouldn't they be in separate rooms anyways so teams can communicate and coordinate effectively?

 

[SneakyStephan]

I'd be interested in watching the actual play from this tournament.

What brief gameplay we did see from the video was pretty awful.

All I saw was missing, poor communication, and horrible positioning. That is pretty much the trifecta of competitive play and it seemed to be thrown out the window.

Anyone find some footage of this? Twitch apparently had some, but I'm not familiar with their site.

https://twitter.com/TwitchTV/status/313296461204951041

EDIT: Oh god, now I am reminded why I don't browse Twitch...this is one of their top videos

http://www.twitch.tv/legendarylea/c/2033550

For contrast here's a quake 3 play broken down (skip to 4 minutes if you don't want the intro talk, trust me it is worth watching the 4-5 min bit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAE1aWOXx8M

COD esports ? hahaha.

 

[params7]

Shouldn't they be in separate rooms anyways so teams can communicate and coordinate effectively?

Yep that's how the protocol is at the top level. The other team isn't supposed to be at a vicinity where they can hear your strategy.

 

[El Odio]

Sounds just how I remember it. It's a wonder I never played without a mic after a while.

 

[Grief.exe]

For contrast here's a quake 3 play broken down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58

COD esports ? hahaha.

Ya I know.

Whenever I watch competitive play of CS or Quake, you have to break it down into slow motion and dissect what these guys are doing.

And in CS' case, they never miss a shot. Its crazy.

Then I watched what was shown from this tournament...

 

[MiKeD]

Would probably smack all those scrubby clowns.

 

[flippedb]

Oh but the REAL top players were on class at the local Elementary School, they couldn't be there lol

 

[Miles Quaritch]

"I'm the daddy".

I've heard it before somewhere, but I can't place it.

 

[xenist]

Are people surprised FPS tournaments can turn into diss-fests? Do people here even play these games online with chat on?

Those weren't disses. It was a bunch of apes flinging shit.

"YEAH BITCH FUCK YOU!"

Trash talking worthy of Michael Jordan.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

What a bunch of fucking manchildren. Have some dignity.

 

[L1NETT]

Let's fucking go!!!!



To the job center

---

In all fairness, if they want to be taken seriously as a "sport" then they should act like sportsmen. There is a difference between getting hyped up and verbal abuse.

 

[Erasus]

For contrast here's a quake 3 play broken down (skip to 4 minutes if you don't want the intro talk, trust me it is worth watching the 4-5 min bit)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdkDjsBiO58

COD esports ? hahaha.

This. CS/Quake is on a whole nother level. So good.

For that Eurogamer vid those "pros" seems to miss a lot

 

[mkenyon]

Ya I know.

Whenever I watch competitive play of CS or Quake, you have to break it down into slow motion and dissect what these guys are doing.

And in CS' case, they never miss a shot. Its crazy.

Then I watched what was shown from this tournament...

Consoles vs. PC. zfz.Crzg in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL-z3XQMqPM

 

[Threi]

Watched the video

YO MARVEL!

 

[Mokubba]

This makes me appreciate the FGC even more. Such a big contrast

 

[joesiv]

Wow, coming out of watching SC2 tournaments, that's quite shocking. I think someone summaries it earlier by calling it Xbox Live the movie.

It's ok for fans and non-pro gaming to behave as such, but for a professional scene, I would expect, oh maybe some "professionalism".

That's really embarassing for e-sports, who knows maybe if we can clean up the tournaments from such behavior, maybe it will trickle down to Xbox Live too... (not likely)

 

[eot]

Feedback and consistency is a BIG deal in games but very very few developers know how to provide either.

You make some good points, but this on in particular is something I think Valve screwed up the most with CS:S. Lack of flinching animations, much harder to spot bullet impact locations and ragdoll deaths that don't provide any feedback etc.

 

[Radec]

Really.. whether it's fighting games, shooters, strategy, MOBA or whatever the fuck else.. a lot of these competitions are a shitstain of the industry. Absolute worst people that are into the hobby. It's really embarrassing.

Ive never seen a Dota/ Dota 2 tourney that went like that or even allowed to speak to other teams.

And ive seen ALOT of competitions.

 

[diamount]

Yes quite the contrast from SC2.

 

[itzknickknac]

GAF is so casual. These are the real hardcore gamers.

I don't consider these people "hardcore gamers." They're just hardcore childish.

 

[Grief.exe]

Anyone find a video of the actual play?

I would be interested to watch their aim, strategies, and positioning.

 

[SneakyStephan]

This. CS/Quake is on a whole nother level. So good.

For that Eurogamer vid those "pros" seems to miss a lot

Quake is on a whole other level than cs as well, but cs has several layers of depth too (just not as fast paced or difficult a game as quake).

Cod has no layers which is why it's unfit as a competitive game.

 

[Future PhaZe]

Never seen anything like this from top Halo teams back at MLG.

Different game though.