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Toronto police officer guilty of attempted murder, not guilty of 2nd degree murder

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I

Indicate

Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx2iQnYMQfM


Const. James Forcillo has been found guilty of attempted murder in the 2013 shooting death of Sammy Yatim. Forcillo was found not guilty of second-degree murder and manslaughter.Forcillo’s sentencing and motions will be heard May 16 to 27.

Meanwhile, the police officer will be suspended with pay because he has been found guilty of a crime, according to Toronto police chief Mark Saunders.

Defence lawyer Peter Brauti said his legal team will launch a constitutional challenge to the minimum sentence for attempted murder with a firearm.

Forcillo, 32, fatally shot Yatim three times while the 18-year-old, armed with a switchblade, stood at the front of an empty, stopped streetcar. Five-and-a-half seconds after Yatim collapsed onto the floor of the streetcar, Forcillo fired six more shots, striking Yatim’s lower body five times.

The charge of attempted murder was related to the second volley of shots, which were fired while Yatim was lying on the floor of the streetcar.

The entire incident was captured on video, which was played during the trial.

Forcillo remained stoic, but grew increasingly red-faced, as the verdicts were read early this afternoon. His wife moved to stand with him as soon as she was allowed.

Following the verdicts, Justice Edward Then adjourned the court until 2:30 p.m.

Before the break, Brauti told the court he expects to file a motion to stay the charges that will likely be heard in mid-March.

For the moment, Forcillo remains free on bail.

The Crown did not make any statements about bail for Forcillo before the court adjourned.

A conviction for attempted murder carries a minimum prison sentence of four years.

Yatim was likely dead before another officer Tasered him, the trial heard.

Forcillo had pleaded not guilty to charges of second-degree murder and attempted murder.

He argued that he was acting in self-defence both times he fired because Yatim posed an imminent threat to his safety and the safety of those around him.

Forcillo also argued his use of lethal force as a police officer arresting someone committing an illegal act was justified because he had reasonable grounds to believe his life and the lives of others were at risk.

The jury heard weeks of testimony about Yatim’s appearance and behaviour before and after he got on the Dundas streetcar, heading west. Passenger Bridgette McGregor told the jury Yatim slashed his knife at her neck, although he did not injure her, sparking the panicked exodus of passengers from the streetcar.

“I need people to know Yatim was dangerous,” she said. “He was going to kill me.”

Witnesses described Yatim’s erratic behaviour. He exposed himself as he walked behind fleeing passengers, knife in hand. The TTC driver testified he had a conversation with Yatim, in which the teen asked for a phone to call his father.

But the judge warned the jury that evidence from before Forcillo arrived at the scene could only be used as context for the following 50-second confrontation, not to establish Yatim’s state of mind at the time he was shot. The jury could use it to consider whether Yatim was in a state of crisis, and, as the judge later added, to provide some circumstantial evidence of his facial expressions and body language that might help the jury in assessing what Forcillo said he observed Yatim doing later.

Characterizing the step Yatim took before he was shot was a key issue during the trial.

Seconds before, Forcillo had issued an ultimatum to Yatim: “Come a step closer and I’ll shoot!”

The Crown repeatedly argued the step was a slow movement forward of 50 centimetres, taking Yatim back to a spot on the streetcar where he’d been standing moments before, not a lunge or charge. Prosecutor Milan Rupic told the jury, it was Yatim’s mocking attitude and failure to obey Forcillo’s commands that caused Forcillo to shoot him, even though Yatim posed no imminent threat and made no move to actually get off the streetcar.

The defence position was that Yatim got himself shot.

Forcillo said the step, coupled with Yatim’s “aggressive” body language and apparent state of excited delirium, led him to believe Yatim was going to attack.

“(Yatim) was in a fight till the end,” Forcillo told the jury.
Forcillo said that, even after Yatim collapsed onto his back after three shots were fired, Yatim picked up his knife and appeared to sit up at a 45-degree angle, renewing the attack.

That, he said, was what prompted him to fire the second volley of six shots, five striking Yatim’s lower body.

However, the videos clearly show Yatim never sat up — and the pathologist testified that a bullet to the spine had paralyzed him.

The defence argued Forcillo had an honest but mistaken perception due to stress and life-threatening circumstances, and called a psychologist to testify about police officers experiencing similar situations.

The Crown maintained Forcillo was lying to justify shooting Yatim who was no imminent threat as he lay on his back on the streetcar.

The trial began in mid-October, lasting more than two months with a break at the end of December.
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A

arts&crafts

Member
lol this is Making a Murderer level BS.

He is guilty of attempted murder...but not guilty of murder even though he killed the man?

This is like Steven Avery
Guilty of murder...but not guilty of mutilating the corpse he "disposed" of
 
L

LaserBuddha

Member
So guilty of trying to murder but not guilty of succeeding? Well that's still better than what happens in America most of the time.

I'm assuming it's because they couldn't prove that the victim only died due to the "excessive" shots, therefore he might still be dead if the cop had stopped at what they considered to be reasonable force. Still it's weird to let him off when he succeeded at what they decided he was trying to do.
 
S

#sorrynotsorry

Member
This actually makes sense. There are two acts, the first round of shots and the second. The first round was a justified kill so no murder. However, the second was not - the incapacitated victim was no threat.

So the second volley was attempted murder. It was not murder because he was already dead.

Intent to kill both times, but the killing act had a legal defense.
 
C

crimzonflame

Member
A couple of weeks ago two security guards took down a full grown man who was attacking another man with a machete. You're telling me a bunch of cops couldnt take down a kid with a switchblade? He had to shoot him 9 times?
 
D

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
#sorrynotsorry said:
This actually makes sense. There are two acts, the first round of shots and the second. The first round was a justified kill so no murder. However, the second was not - the incapacitated victim was no threat.

So the second volley was attempted murder. It was not murder because he was already dead.

Intent to kill both times, but the killing act had a legal defense.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify: I think the first volley of shots is what killed him, but I think he was still alive when the second volley of shots were fired.
 
D

diaspora

Member
He was shot initially for bringing out a switchblade IIRC- and the Officer was (imo understandably) found not guilty for murder for that. He was found guilty (justifiably) for continuing to fire after the guy was down.
 
J

jokkir

Member
From Reddit

My understanding is that this means the jury found that his initial shots were justified. It was those shots that killed him, so he is not guilty of murder.
The second barrage of shots was not justified and he was attempting to kill him and he is therefore guilty of attempted murder.
Click to expand...
 
N

Netherscourge

Banned
I'm confused...

He shot the guy 9 times. He died as a result.

How is that ONLY Attempted Murder if that guy, in fact, died of his bullet wounds?

Attempted Murder = not dead.

Murder = dead.

What am I missing?

How does Attempted Murder come into the equation if the guy is dead? He attempted to kill the guy, and he is in fact dead as a result. Therefore, he succeeded in murdering him.

And how the fuck can you prove WHICH volley of bullets ultimately killed the guy?
 
I

Indicate

Member
NeOak said:
Canada adopting recent US police practice?
Click to expand...

Chief Mark Saunders along with Mayor John Tory both said that improvements are being made to ensure that there are no deaths and no injuries when police officers deal with people in crisis. So no, and it's great that the TPS is trying to make changes.
 
B

BigJonsson

Member
Netherscourge said:
I'm confused...

He shot the guy 9 times. He died as a result.

How is that ONLY Attempted Murder if that guy, in fact, died of his bullet wounds?

Attempted Murder = not dead.

Murder = dead.

What am I missing?

How does Attempted Murder come into the equation if the guy is dead? He attempted to kill the guy, and he is in fact dead as a result. Therefore, he succeeded in murdering him.

And how the fuck can you prove WHICH volley of bullets killed the guy?
Click to expand...

Read the explanation posted above
 
M

Madness

Member
The first set of shots, as Yatim moved forward with the switchblade ended up being justified and the second degree murder charge was dropped. It was the 6 shots when Yatim was on the ground, that were unjustified and it was what got him the attempted murder charge. He attempted to kill him with the last shots, even though he was already 'dead' from the previous ones.

Going to be interesting how this plays out in appeal, especially if they're saying that the initial shots ended up being justified. Canada doesn't have as big an issue when it comes to police misconduct unlike the US. Most of the time, brutality and misconduct are usually excessive taser use, excessive force like punches and kicks.
 
D

Dr.Guru of Peru

played the long game
Netherscourge said:
I'm confused...

He shot the guy 9 times. He died as a result.

How is that ONLY Attempted Murder if that guy, in fact, died of his bullet wounds?

Attempted Murder = not dead.

Murder = dead.

What am I missing?

How does Attempted Murder come into the equation if the guy is dead? He attempted to kill the guy, and he is in fact dead as a result. Therefore, he succeeded in murdering him.

And how the fuck can you prove WHICH volley of bullets ultimately killed the guy?
Click to expand...

Cause of death. If the second volley of shots were all lower extremities, and the cause of death was cardiac arrest due to hemopneumothorax then you can safely conclude the second volley didn't kill him.
 
J

jstripes

Banned
Netherscourge said:
How does Attempted Murder come into the equation if the guy is dead? He attempted to kill the guy, and he is in fact dead as a result. Therefore, he succeeded in murdering him.
Click to expand...

I was confused at first too.

After the first three shots the suspect was incapacitated. The situation was "defused". But the officer, after a relatively lengthy pause (5.5 seconds), decided to fire six more shots into him anyway. So, given the possibility that the suspect hadn't already been mortally wounded, that was an "attempt" at murder.
 
K

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
Madness said:
The first set of shots, as Yatim moved forward with the switchblade ended up being justified and the second degree murder charge was dropped. It was the 6 shots when Yatim was on the ground, that were unjustified and it was what got him the attempted murder charge. He attempted to kill him with the last shots, even though he was already 'dead' from the previous ones.

Going to be interesting how this plays out in appeal, especially if they're saying that the initial shots ended up being justified. Canada doesn't have as big an issue when it comes to police misconduct unlike the US. Most of the time, brutality and misconduct are usually excessive taser use, excessive force like punches and kicks.
Click to expand...

For those curious, Wikipedia has a list of all police killings, justified or no

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_Canada

We had 22 last year in Canada, although I think it's incomplete, probably closer to 25.
 
S

Slackbladder

Member
So the intention of this policeman was not to kill the victim? That was proven in court? Or he had a good reason to kill him? Stinks to me.
 
D

diaspora

Member
Slackbladder said:
So the intention of this policeman was not to kill the victim? That was proven in court? Or he had a good reason to kill him? Stinks to me.
Click to expand...

I think the judgement was that the initial shots weren't murder considering the victim was wielding a lethal weapon, but the following shots after he was down were ridiculous and unjustifiable.
 
D

diaspora

Member
I think his punishment should be longer than 4 years, but I wouldn't quantify 4+ years prison and never working as a cop as a slap on the wrist.
 
Mikey Jr.

Mikey Jr.

Member
I don't like getting involved on this stuff on gaf, but I gotta say, that cop straight up murdered that kid.

He wasn't close to endangering anyone. He was on the bus, and the cops looked like they were a good 15 feet away. I would understand if he started charging, or there was someone bleeding in there that needed immediate help or SOMETHING. But he was fucking alone. Even if it takes all night, reason with him. He can't go anywhere, and he isn't an immediate danger to anyone.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Silexx said:
Actually, here's an article that further contextualizes the verdict:

https://nowtoronto.com/news/risky-legal-strategy-in-sammy-yatim-case/
Click to expand...
So how 'bout that Constable James Forcillo. Is he guilty of murdering Sammy Yatim?

Well, we know he killed him. He fired nine bullets at close range, eight of which hit Yatim. No other officers on the scene discharged their firearms. Another did subsequently hit him with a taser – and you could raise all sorts of questions about that – but it's not currently at issue, given that experts have testified that Yatim was mortally wounded by Forcillo's first trio of shots. For him to be found guilty of murder, however, the Crown has to prove to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that he either intended to kill Yatim or intended to harm him in a way that he would've known was likely to kill him and was reckless as to whether that might actually happen.
Click to expand...
What the hell is this? So after this guy was shot 8 times, another officer ran up and tased him?!

That's a good read however, seems like the prosecution knew it might be tough to get the murder charge (or even manslaughter) given a) juries generally giving officers the benefit of the doubt, and b) the judge's decision in a different prior case to instruct a jury to consider all shots fired part as having the same impetus even if there was a significant pause between shots.
 
M

MegaManTrigger

Banned
#sorrynotsorry said:
This actually makes sense. There are two acts, the first round of shots and the second. The first round was a justified kill so no murder. However, the second was not - the incapacitated victim was no threat.

So the second volley was attempted murder. It was not murder because he was already dead.

Intent to kill both times, but the killing act had a legal defense.
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing how it makes sense. Attempt in legal terminology means the defendant has failed to commit the actus reus of the full offense, but has the direct and specific intent to commit that full offense.

We know that the three shots killed Yatim, so how could anyone say this is "attempted"? IMO, there's too much emphasis on making a distinction between the shots and not enough attention on the application of the law. At least one can make a strong argument for second degree murder: 1) Forcillo had the intent to kill in that specific moment when he was otherwise trying to disarm Yatim (and recklessness too considering the number of shots fired).

I really don't understand how an explanation of this charge makes any sense.
 
L

LaserBuddha

Member
MegaManTrigger said:
I'm not seeing how it makes sense. Attempt in legal terminology means the defendant has failed to commit the actus reus of the full offense, but has the direct and specific intent to commit that full offense.

We know that the three shots killed Yatim, so how could anyone say this is "attempted"? IMO, there's too much emphasis on making a distinction between the shots and not enough attention on the application of the law. At least one can make a strong argument for second degree murder: 1) Forcillo had the intent to kill in that specific moment when he was otherwise trying to disarm Yatim (and recklessness too considering the number of shots fired).

I really don't understand how an explanation of this charge makes any sense.
Click to expand...
I don't agree with the split on this but it can be convincingly argued that if they don't know beyond reasonable doubt that the second round of shots killed him and he would have survived the first round, then they cannot find him guilty of murder if they did not find the first round of shots excessive.
 
J

jstripes

Banned
MegaManTrigger said:
I'm not seeing how it makes sense. Attempt in legal terminology means the defendant has failed to commit the actus reus of the full offense, but has the direct and specific intent to commit that full offense.

We know that the three shots killed Yatim, so how could anyone say this is "attempted"? IMO, there's too much emphasis on making a distinction between the shots and not enough attention on the application of the law. At least one can make a strong argument for second degree murder: 1) Forcillo had the intent to kill in that specific moment when he was otherwise trying to disarm Yatim (and recklessness too considering the number of shots fired).

I really don't understand how an explanation of this charge makes any sense.
Click to expand...

The officer, at the time, was in no position to determine whether the suspect was dead or alive. All that was certain was he was no longer a threat. And, the officer shot six more rounds into him.
 
U

User 479360

Banned
Sammy Yatim died, so how is it not 2nd degree murder? If it's attempted, it's murder because the guy died.

I'm normally pro police, because they're generally great in Canada. However, this case likely ended up wrong.
 
1

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
How can it be attempted murder when he actually succeeded in killing the guy?

I alwas thought attempted murder was when you attempt to murder someone but you fail and the person doesn't die.
But when the person dies it can't be attempted murder.
 
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