Transgender Boy wins Girl's State wrestling title again

Corrik said:
I went to PA states twice as a kid by beating 1 person each time in the WPIAL regional and losing in the final to go as runner up. Mostly just because my division lacked a lot of people in my weight class.
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Damn, what weight class were you in? I thought PA was the hottest of wrestling hot beds with the elitest elite wrestlers coming out their ears... at least that's what Brands keep telling us to explain why we suck now.
 
way more said:
Lame, dude should be wrestling boys even if it means he will lose all the time. Nice work, Texas.


There was a ftm transgender swimmer in Harvard who was warned that swimming on the boys would mean she would be last place every time. She said, fuck it, I'm a boy so I'll swim with boys.

http://people.com/sports/transgender-harvard-swimmer-schuyler-bailar-breaks-boundaries/

He loses all the time and nobody cares.
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Even that seems unfair. No one should be allowed to use classical performance enhancing drugs in competition that the entire field can't use. Whether they wrestle against their preferred gender or not is not my shock - it's the issue of steroids for some but not all that really bothers me. Especially in sports with weight classes. More muscle mass than someone with similiar weight gives an advantage, as does the increased aggression levels. Same objections would apply to someone taking steroids for other medical reason s like getting over injuries. Just too much known about advanatages to ignore.
 
way more said:
Lame, dude should be wrestling boys even if it means he will lose all the time. Nice work, Texas.


There was a ftm transgender swimmer in Harvard who was warned that swimming on the boys would mean she would be last place every time. She said, fuck it, I'm a boy so I'll swim with boys.

http://people.com/sports/transgender-harvard-swimmer-schuyler-bailar-breaks-boundaries/

He loses all the time and nobody cares.
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But what is the solution then when a male to female transgender wants to wrestle against the girls? If they are going to allow it one way they have to allow the other right?
 
Corrik said:
Can hate on me all you want, but he shouldn't be allowed to compete at all. He is taking a banned substance for cosmetic reasons and that should not be an acceptable reason.

He should have to compete in the classification of his sex. That is correct. However, he should not be allowed to take a banned substance and be allowed to compete.

If he wishes to take testosterone, that is his choice. However, with that choice comes the consequences the chemicals used to complete that process come with.

We should not be bending the rules to conform with people's choices. You can make your choice and live with the rules in place and accept them.

You ruined how many girls seasons and wrestling ambitions because you allowed someone taking testosterone to compete with them. If it is a banned substance, it should not have been allowed to happen.
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I'm not sure where I personally stand on the matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about the following scenario? -- My friend in high school was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes. He was a scrawny-ass kid. His meds for his diabetes contained steroids and he basically became Captain America overnight. Quarterback of the football team, and broke many state weightlifting records in Florida. He put in some crazy hard work, like an insane amount, but there's no question that the roids helped him along the way. He certainly didn't ask for his diabetes. Should he have been banned from competition?
 
matt360 said:
I'm not sure where I personally stand on the matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about the following scenario? -- My friend in high school was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes. He was a scrawny-ass kid. His meds for his diabetes contained steroids and he basically became Captain America overnight. Quarterback of the football team, and broke many state weightlifting records in Florida. He put in some crazy hard work, like an insane amount, but there's no question that the roids helped him along the way. He certainly didn't ask for his diabetes. Should he have been banned from competition?
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That is a little trickier.
 
Transgender people already exist on the fringes of society, so I don't think exclusion works to anybody's benefit, if the end goal is inclusion. Which it should be. I can't accept that the price they'd have to pay is exclusion from sports in general, it's just not a good enough solution. I can understand the concerns of athletes who feel like a transgender athlete may have some kind of advantage, but I think these teething problems will go away eventually, and that they should be allowed to compete. I think with the drugs issue, it's incumbent upon organisations such as WADA to use their discretion; I'd imagine the therapy treatment falls under theraputic/medical fair use.
 
PedroPanache said:
Transgender people already exist on the fringes of society, so I don't think exclusion works to anybody's benefit, if the end goal is inclusion. Which it should be. I can't accept that the price they'd have to pay is exclusion from sports in general, it's just not a good enough solution. I can understand the concerns of athletes who feel like a transgender athlete may have some kind of advantage, but I think these teething problems will go away eventually, and that they should be allowed to compete. I think with the drugs issue, it's incumbent upon organisations such as WADA to use their discretion; I'd imagine the therapy treatment falls under theraputic/medical fair use.
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So everyone else has to suffer because of this? I am sorry but you have to make compromises sometimes in Life and tras people are no exception. They still can do sport just not on a competing prof level that is all.
 
SoulUnison said:
This seems pretty cut and dry. He wants to be a man, that's the arena he wants to compete in and that's what's probably most physically appropriate for him.

They're really only making this an issue by sort of going out of their way to.
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But if you change that to;

This seems pretty cut and dry. She wants to be a woman, that's the arena she wants to compete in and that's what's probably most physically appropriate for her.

And it's a whole different kettle of fish.
 
It's only a matter of time until women's sports have been bastardised forever. All the records held by transgender biological men. The only true fair thing to do is have separate categories for transgender people.

This case is dumb though. Just let him compete with the guys. He will most likely lose but it's more fair and accurate.
 
Dunki said:
So everyone else has to suffer because of this? I am sorry but you have to make compromises sometimes in Life and tras people are no exception. They still can do sport just not on a competing prof level that is all.
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Nobody is suffering. It's sports; mere entertainment. Transgender people aren't tearing through professional sport utterly dominating their competition. Like everybody else, they'll win some and lose some. For now, it's far more useful for them to compete against males/females, so researchers and scientists can build data and research, and ultimately decide, long term, and whether it's fair for them to compete in their rightful gender category. I can't see any benefit of banning them from competing in the here and now. The more transgender athletes that compete, the more we can know about their advantages/disadvantages and make good decisions on whether they should have their own category or be integrated into their identified gender category.
 
PedroPanache said:
Nobody is suffering. It's sports; mere entertainment. Transgender people aren't tearing through professional sport utterly dominating their competition. Like everybody else, they'll win some and lose some. For now, it's far more useful for them to compete against males/females, so researchers and scientists can build data and research, and ultimately decide, long term, and whether it's fair for them to compete in their rightful gender category. I can't see any benefit of banning them from competing in the here and now. The more transgender athletes that compete, the more we can know about their advantages/disadvantages and make good decisions on whether they should have their own category or be integrated into their identified gender category.
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Ever heard of Fallon Fox? Pleae tell me how this is in any way fair or ok? The moment it is physical sport trans women have a clear advantage. There is a reason why testosterone is forbidden for atehlets. And we already now this data and what advantages they have.



I am sorry but there is a reason why we separate men and women in sports and its not because we are sexist or other bullshit... And this should be the case here too. You want something? Maybe do a trans league otherwise I will never think that it becomes a fair thing.
 
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PedroPanache said:
Nobody is suffering. It's sports; mere entertainment.
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I've said what I had to say about the topic at hand. This, however, is at best naive, at worst ignorant and insulting. I'm not a big sports fan myself, but anyone should be able to realize that sports isn't 'mere entertainment. It's a way of life, an expression of oneself, and an important challenge with others. For YOU, it might be just entertainment, but you have no right at all to claim that to be a general truth.
 
TrainedRage said:
In my district wrestling is a coed sport. It's broken down by weight class. I have seen girls that destroy boys the same weight. I see nothing wrong here as long as steroids or other muscle enhancements are not being taken. Plus it's an excuse to throw down against the opposite sex. 😜
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I've never heard of this, how does that work? I don't know much about wrestling but wouldn't the male have a huge advantage over the female?

I think the solution should be to open up male wrestling to whoever wants to compete.
 
finowns said:
I've never heard of this, how does that work? I don't know much about wrestling but wouldn't the male have a huge advantage over the female?

I think the solution should be to open up male wrestling to whoever wants to compete.
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MY guess is that these girls train way harder for it then their male counterparts. If they would be technically and wightwise on the same level they would destory them IMO.
 
Sounds like a complicated matter.
My initial reaction is to just let him compete with the boys. It's what he wants and it would keep things fair for the other people competing. But that would also set a precedent for people in the opposite situation (males transitioning to females) which as a whole is more complicated.

The only solution I see is that rather than having a general rule for all cases you have some sort of board analyse and decide on individual cases like this. But that would introduce its own set of issues



matt360 said:
I'm not sure where I personally stand on the matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about the following scenario? -- My friend in high school was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes. He was a scrawny-ass kid. His meds for his diabetes contained steroids and he basically became Captain America overnight. Quarterback of the football team, and broke many state weightlifting records in Florida. He put in some crazy hard work, like an insane amount, but there's no question that the roids helped him along the way. He certainly didn't ask for his diabetes. Should he have been banned from competition?
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Not the person you quoted but no, he shouldn't have been allowed to compete.
I'd feel bad for him and I'd never question that he isn't putting in a lot of work but these substances are banned for a reason and it should apply to all cases even if it's being taken for medical reasons.

My friend from high school dreamed about joining the air force, he had the grades, fitness and even the contacts to accomplish it since both his dad and grandpa had served in the air force. But he had to give up on that dream when he found out that his eyesight wasn't good enough. He certainly didn't ask for bad eye sight but simply had to accept that because of an unwanted condition in his body there were things he just wouldn't be able to do.
 
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Kotzen Ducha said:
Impossible situation, really.
If you let him compete against guys it opens the door to M->F competing against girls.
If you give him T and let him compete against girls it's a huge advantage.
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What's the problem with trans girls competing against girls? That already happens at professional levels.

Fbh said:
Not the person you quoted but no, he shouldn't have been allowed to compete.
I'd feel bad for him and I'd never question that he isn't putting in a lot of work but these substances are banned for a reason and it should apply to all cases even if it's being taken for medical reasons.
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Thankfully it's not up to you to make the rules. They have already said that legitimate medical reasons are an exemption to the steroid rule. The low dosages transitioning people or people with diabetes take do not magically give them advantages unless of course, they're playing against the wrong gender.
 
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bufkus said:
What's the problem with trans girls competing against girls? That already happens at professional levels.



Thankfully it's not up to you to make the rules. They have already said that legitimate medical reasons are an exemption to the steroid rule. The low dosages transitioning people or people with diabetes take do not magically give them advantages unless of course, they're playing against the wrong gender.
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It happens in obscure situations in foreign countries like Fallon Fox in MMA who seriously fucked up some girls before hitting a skill ceiling and losing.

You can be sure if Demitrious Johnson transitioned they wouldn't let him fight women that size. It would be mauling after mauling.

Men and women are physically very different. It's careless to let biological men compete against biological women.
 
matt360 said:
I'm not sure where I personally stand on the matter, but for the sake of discussion, what do you think about the following scenario? -- My friend in high school was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes. He was a scrawny-ass kid. His meds for his diabetes contained steroids and he basically became Captain America overnight. Quarterback of the football team, and broke many state weightlifting records in Florida. He put in some crazy hard work, like an insane amount, but there's no question that the roids helped him along the way. He certainly didn't ask for his diabetes. Should he have been banned from competition?
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Yeah, he probably should have been. If any league does drug testing to rule out performance-enhancers like steroids, then that's just the rule. Not everyone gets to be involved in everything they want all the time.

Every other kid who was playing football and trying to achieve weightlifting records was putting in some crazy hard work too, and they got fucked by someone with an edge that's purposely banned in the first place.
 
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I am and have been a martial artist for many years now, and have been in a lot of competitions.
Here in portugal where i live, they do not do blood test before fights, so the "natural ones" we have to take twice the beating to win.
Really unfair and it has nothing to do with gender discrimination
 
Fbh said:
Not the person you quoted but no, he shouldn't have been allowed to compete.
I'd feel bad for him and I'd never question that he isn't putting in a lot of work but these substances are banned for a reason and it should apply to all cases even if it's being taken for medical reasons.

My friend from high school dreamed about joining the air force, he had the grades, fitness and even the contacts to accomplish it since both his dad and grandpa had served in the air force. But he had to give up on that dream when he found out that his eyesight wasn't good enough. He certainly didn't ask for bad eye sight but simply had to accept that because of an unwanted condition in his body there were things he just wouldn't be able to do.
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Grinchy said:
Yeah, he probably should have been. If any league does drug testing to rule out performance-enhancers like steroids, then that's just the rule. Not everyone gets to be involved in everything they want all the time.

Every other kid who was playing football and trying to achieve weightlifting records was putting in some crazy hard work too, and they got fucked by someone with an edge that's purposely banned in the first place.
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Yeah, that's certainly fair enough. I was just wondering if there'd be a difference in opinion when taking into account that the diabetes meds are literally required to remain alive, while the hormone treatments, while important, are not. But maybe the use of banned substances in sports should be a very cut and dry issue?
 
bufkus said:
What's the problem with trans girls competing against girls? That already happens at professional levels.
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The problem stems from the 10-30x higher testosterone levels (anabolic steroid) many transitioned (male to female) persons enjoy, since most transition well after 9 years of age when this hormone greatly increases in quantity and permanently affects advantaged vascular, ligament, muscle and bone formation. This is a hormone that also promotes tissue repair and healing. So you get a consistently unfair advantage at professional levels of competition from the moment you begin training, in competition and then all the way through recovery.

I see no logic in such unfair sporting competition.
 
Unfortunately this is a tough situation. The only real solution is to stop separating sports by gender altogether, but I'm sure some people wouldn't be too happy about that because reasons...
 
BANGS said:
Unfortunately this is a tough situation. The only real solution is to stop separating sports by gender altogether, but I'm sure some people wouldn't be too happy about that because reasons...
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You can just look at records for sports and see why people wouldn't be happy about that. You are talking about ensuring a woman never wins a medal in the Olympics again or can be a state championship or so on. (At least in sports in which physical prowess is involved).
 
Corrik said:
You can just look at records for sports and see why people wouldn't be happy about that. You are talking about ensuring a woman never wins a medal in the Olympics again or can be a state championship or so on. (At least in sports in which physical prowess is involved).
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And I'm sure there will be people upset with even stating that fact... Can't keep everyone happy...
 
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