Brian Griffin
Member
Care to share why not?
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Transgender Threads: A Primer
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Uncle0wnage
Member
He is a straight man, while his preference is for a biologically-born female. The two were a summary of his post not a blanket statement.
Psychotext
Member
OP was long, informative, and in many ways quite confusing to me (it contradicts some previously held beliefs).
Still, I've got friends who are struggling with gender related issues (none of them would define themselves as trans, yet) so it's quite helpful to read more information.
Still, I've got friends who are struggling with gender related issues (none of them would define themselves as trans, yet) so it's quite helpful to read more information.
He is saying he is not attracted to trans women and then saying he is straight.
If I said "I am not attracted to women with flat chests. That is my opinion as a lesbian" doesn't that seem strange? Why is that statement there? Would I be saying if someone doesn't have breasts they aren't a woman?
Don't be disingenuous with what he was implying.
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
Seriously?
Brian Griffin
Member
What were they if you don't mind me asking? I like seeing the progress of educational threads like this.
Femmeworth
Banned
Seriously. I'm fed up with people failing to address their own ignorance.
I was always under the impression pre-op was transgendered, post-op was trans-woman or trans-man. Or just man or woman, after the surgery the pseudo-titles are sort of offensive to the person that had the operation, right? I'd imagine so. That said, if someone told me that they were a woman and they had a penis I'd be really pissed off. There's a difference between identity and sex, and until you have the operation I'd say your what your born with.
I realize I might offend some, but I'm not trying to.
I realize I might offend some, but I'm not trying to.
Psychotext
Member
To be honest I struggle with "Trans men are real men. Trans women are real women.". I can't get my brain past it, even though I'm fully aware that we're all male and female on a sliding scale. I think it's the disconnect between internal and external for me. In a way I expect a more masculine looking female to act in a more masculine manner, and vice versa for a feminine looking man.
As it stands I can't really square the circle on that one. My assumption is that we're to take the internal (brain / feelings) as the correct sex and ignore the external. I don't really know how that fits with the science, but it is mentioned that if you were to test, you would find the brain of a transgender female / male has more in common with their real gender than the one they were labelled with.
PhoenixDark
Banned
That analogy makes no sense. My preference as a straight man is to date biological women - someone who was born female. If you want to label that offensive so be it; my intention is not to offend anyone, and I feel I have been respectful in each trans thread, haven't name called, etc. My position is no different than most other guys on this issue. Everyone can have their own preferences, and for me this is not an issue of red hair vs dark hair or long legs vs short - it's about my preference as a straight man to only date/get involved with females who were born female. And no, I am not going to continue a semantics debate about anomalies. If I have to spell it out further, I would not be comfortable dating someone who was born male.
(Obviously each person, gay or straight, has their own preferences as well and could be different than mine, that's their choice)
Femmeworth
Banned
Just say you are somewhat homophobic/transphobic. It's okay, as long as you realize it and are willing to address it.
PhoenixDark
Banned
That's your opinion. I'm not homophobic for not dating men, and I'm not transphobic for not dating transgender women
Then life is going to drag you down hard and fast.
Femmeworth
Banned
Brian Griffin
Member
Just keep the thought in your mind and know it's truth, eventually you will probably understand. Best thing to do is to absorb more information in the form of documentaries and other video sources where you can actually see how different trans people look and act and hear them talk about their lives and struggles. That will go a long way to helping you understand.
Uncle0wnage
Member
Wow, you can't tell the difference between preference and bigotry. Way to go.
charlequin
Banned
This is such a bizarre, arbitrary claim to make though.
I mean, we can establish pretty easily that while there are transwomen who are pretty easy to pick out, there are quite a few others (especially now, as more people begin transition before puberty) whose physical appearance is pretty much indistinguishable from a ciswoman.
Furthermore, as has been mentioned in this thread, GRS can now produce female genitalia that are effectively indistinguishable from naturally-grown ones: essentially identical in appearance, similar orgasmic response, self-lubricating.
So when someone says they have a "sexual preference" for a "biologically-born female," they're saying they have a sexual preference based on information it is impossible for them to even have without outside assistance. It's like saying you have a sexual preference for women who never dated anyone taller than you, or women who don't like spinach, or women who have ever voted Republican. That just isn't how sexual preference works.
What someone is really saying in this kind of situation is "knowing {thing x} about this person makes me uncomfortable with my attraction to them," which isn't really unreasonable to put exactly like that but which can rapidly morph into something much uglier if you try to justify it as something bigger than an issue of personal comfort boundaries.
I mean, as an analogy, I can pretty easily imagine a guy who's unwilling to date any woman who'd been with another woman. That's certainly his choice, and I can't fault it on the one very basic level that, like, no one should ever be forced to do anything they're uncomfortable with. But I also don't see any reason to put that behavior beyond judgment. If the man in question gets along swimmingly with that woman, has tons of shared interests, the sex is good, etc. then what is there really beyond a personal issue (that the guy should probably get over) or bigotry really justifying his discomfort?
Arguably, everyone is a bit -phobic to some degree if you take the approach that preference = a minor form of discrimination.
GillianSeed79
Member
Just wanted to say I really appreciate this thread. Even though I'm straight, I'm very sensitive and supportive of issues regarding the LGBT community, especially those who are members of GAF. I have to apologize because while I'm familiar with the LGB part of the LGBT community I am very ignorant and uneducated about trans individuals and what they have to deal with, what they are offended by and all that. I live in a very rural area of the U.S. where homophobia is still rampant and trans individuals are nothing more than the butt of jokes. This thread has been very informative. Obviously, people are scared by things they don't understand. Living in a rural community is not an excuse for ignorance, but I sometimes feel like popular culture and the mainstream media has done a poor job of explaining who trans people are and the issues they face.
I'm a country boy so I don't know if trans individuals are as common as people with brown hair or green eyes in places like New York City or LA. Hell, I'm sure there's a bunch where I live and I just don't notice and I sound like an idiot. Just wanted to say education is the best medicine for ignorance and I've learned a lot in this thread.
I'm a country boy so I don't know if trans individuals are as common as people with brown hair or green eyes in places like New York City or LA. Hell, I'm sure there's a bunch where I live and I just don't notice and I sound like an idiot. Just wanted to say education is the best medicine for ignorance and I've learned a lot in this thread.
In my humble opinion, there is preference and there is phobic.
If it is something you can tell right away, it is preference. If it is not, it is bigotry. If it is something that you would only know if the fact can be known if they came out of the people's mouth and not by their actions than it is full mode phobia.
I don't feel atracted to girls with beard shadow - preference
I don't feel atracted to girls who has to take lots of medicine - bigotry
I don't feel atracted to girls with an Y chromossome - phobia
Considering of course all those girls fit the person's atraction otherwise of the said singular factor
But then again, that is just my opinion
Femmeworth
Banned
I'm not saying he's a bigot, but his "preference" is rooted in negative emotion. No one is perfect, pictures of men kissing make me (somewhat) uncomfortable. I acknowledge that the problem lies with me and not gay men.
FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
Aren't many preferences rooted in negative emotion?
Sometimes information can change one's attraction to someone like a bolt of lightning. For instance, I've heard of women immediately dumping and becoming disgusted by a man they were with for revealing they were atheist.
Are you really going to sit there and pretend that you would be attracted to a transgender woman in the same way that you would find Idris Elba attractive in the abstract way of recognizing that he is an attractive man? I don't get it.
We have talked about your habit of comparing your potential attraction to a transgender woman to your ability to recognize that a man is attractive before and I don't understand why you are still making it when it should be clear that it is absurd at best. You could be physically attracted to a transperson, in the absence of knowledge that they are trans. You could not be physically attracted to a man. These things are not comparable.
And if you could be physically attracted to a transperson in the absence of that knowledge, this suggests that this is not your preference "as a straight man", as evidently you can be sexually interested in a transperson. The issue comes with the knowledge that they are transgender. I don't see how you don't make the connection between these two facts and see that the issue for you is that they are transgender. It is nothing physiological; it is merely the fact that they were once a different sex.
I don't really have a problem with your preference, honestly. Well, I suppose do, but glass houses since I'm more or less in the adjacent boat (mixed metaphors are the best, yes?). But your attempts at justifying your preferences - with unrealistic analogies or the equivalent of "It's my opinion and opinions are never wrong" when it is not your opinion that is being criticized so much as - are weak.
Oh, and the whole point of this is not "You are a bigot." I don't think that. I think that you, I, and many other people have prejudices, certainly, but I don't think that you are bigoted against transpeople.
I would say that is the basic definition of atheistfobia or whatever you call it
charlequin
Banned
Which is itself borne of bigotry. Soooooooooo...?
Never thought of anti-atheists as bigots before...you have a point.
It's only bigotry if they're intolerably devoted to their prejudices. I don't think you can find anyone that is completely non-prejudicial when it comes to dating and I don't think that's by necessity a huge cause for concern. There are plenty of people here who have said that it wouldn't be a dealbreaker and some members of Trans-GAF have even said that they've dated a few that managed to overcome their prejudices.
Bigotry is only where those prejudices are inflexible and unrelenting. People have their preferences and are prejudiced towards them, whether they be birth sex, hair colour, race, height and for every person that is prejudiced towards a certain charactertistic there is another who cherishes it. I think trying to eliminate all prejudice is a bit unrealistic but this thread is a great start and while a lot of people here are posting what might be knee-jerk reactions I highly suspect it would be more thoroughly thought through if experienced first hand.
Bigotry is only where those prejudices are inflexible and unrelenting. People have their preferences and are prejudiced towards them, whether they be birth sex, hair colour, race, height and for every person that is prejudiced towards a certain charactertistic there is another who cherishes it. I think trying to eliminate all prejudice is a bit unrealistic but this thread is a great start and while a lot of people here are posting what might be knee-jerk reactions I highly suspect it would be more thoroughly thought through if experienced first hand.
Was just reading a bit through this thread but I just wanted to chime in and say I really really like this post. I showed it to my boyfriend (a gender/women's studies major) and he completely agreed. Both of us heard a lot of this stuff in high school and continue to hear it now (especially living in a southern conservative state). When someone would say something like that, it was always one of those things that I knew what I wanted to say but I didn't know exactly how to say it. Hopefully from now on I'll be able to remember this post and give a proper response.
What is wrong with not wanting to date trans-women? Despite what the GAF morality police have to say on the matter, there are males on this very forum who believe all trans-women are still men. Is this belief wrong? I wouldn't think so (which is not to say I agree with this).
It's rude and disrespectful to tell these women that they are men and I don't think ANYONE has the right to call them men except for themselves. But, you see, that's not what anyone's doing when they express that they don't want to date a trans-woman. Not all guys can change the fact that they perceive these women as men. They just can't. They find it just as revolting as the idea of making out with a dude.
In reality, if sexual preference should be someone's own choice (and it should be), then why can't a male say he only wants to date biological females? That's a sexual preference, just like bondage and being gay.
What all of you who are hyped up on morals are failing to realize is that there are other, valid opinions besides your own. The pitfall of your tolerance toward gays and transpeople is that you have an intolerance for anyone who does not share your beliefs wholeheartedly. You might have a point when it comes to general acceptance of homosexuality and transdom, but you do not have a point when it comes to uncontrollable sexual attraction.
Again, I don't think the haters should be haters, but certainly no one should hate them for having a feeling you don't agree with. If that's allowed, then we should allow people who think being gay is disgusting and crude. We should allow people who think that any kind of premarital sex is wrong. Why? Because instead of promoting acceptance by allowing everyone, you're putting down people just for having a sexual preference.
It's really equally disgusting.
It's rude and disrespectful to tell these women that they are men and I don't think ANYONE has the right to call them men except for themselves. But, you see, that's not what anyone's doing when they express that they don't want to date a trans-woman. Not all guys can change the fact that they perceive these women as men. They just can't. They find it just as revolting as the idea of making out with a dude.
In reality, if sexual preference should be someone's own choice (and it should be), then why can't a male say he only wants to date biological females? That's a sexual preference, just like bondage and being gay.
What all of you who are hyped up on morals are failing to realize is that there are other, valid opinions besides your own. The pitfall of your tolerance toward gays and transpeople is that you have an intolerance for anyone who does not share your beliefs wholeheartedly. You might have a point when it comes to general acceptance of homosexuality and transdom, but you do not have a point when it comes to uncontrollable sexual attraction.
Again, I don't think the haters should be haters, but certainly no one should hate them for having a feeling you don't agree with. If that's allowed, then we should allow people who think being gay is disgusting and crude. We should allow people who think that any kind of premarital sex is wrong. Why? Because instead of promoting acceptance by allowing everyone, you're putting down people just for having a sexual preference.
It's really equally disgusting.
Devolution
Member
No it's not. Openly questioning the reasoning behind the inability to view trans women as women is not bigoted. Sorry.
Princess Viola
Member
Yes, it is wrong if you ask me.
Of course, I have attempted suicide because of transphobia, so I'm probably very, very, very biased.
charlequin
Banned
There are people who try to draw a distinction between man/woman (gender) and male/female (sex) but frankly English just isn't really set up to handle that right now.
Right, well, thus my talk about comfort. It's not really unreasonable to be like "personally I'm uncomfortable dating someone who's trans" because it at least acknowledges that the issue is on your side. It's trying to make it into some sort of objective thing where the issue is with the other person that makes it a problem.
do people really not know how silly this sounds? you're intolerant... AGAINST INTOLERANCE!!!! OMG I GOT U WITH FOURTH GRADE LOGIC SELF HIGH FIVE
the reality is that "tolerance" as espoused about such matters is about respecting other people's personal life decisions as they affect their own individual lives, not necessarily about respecting whatever opinions they might have about others
The belief is an objective cause of genuine harm, especially when it rubs off on trans kids who don't know no better.
I didn't say it was bigoted. You don't even know what that word means. You should stop using it.
These people don't have a reasoning behind their inability. They just don't want to have sex with someone who is transgendered. They don't want to because they view them as men. Why? Because they were born male and that's what they think is right. They didn't choose to think this way. They didn't logically decide that they're going to view all transwomen as men. They just do. It doesn't mean that they are bigots who hate all transgendered people. They can still love and support them. It's not going to mean they're going to consider them to be the gender the transgender actually wants to be. That's not going to happen and it never will in your lifetime.
It is not your place to be judging everyone. It's insulting to everyone that you insist on berating people who do not share your viewpoint. I even agree with you most of the time and I feel the need to jump to other's defense because you are out of place.
How does it harm anyone? You have to act on a belief for someone to be harmed. It's not the belief that harms anyone, it's actions. That is a key distinction.
I don't see how not wanting to have sex with transwomen should hurt these women. I'm not hurt when a lesbian doesn't want to have sex with me. Why not? Because I don't expect them to want to have sex with me because I'm a man. Likewise, transwomen should not expect men to want to have sex with them because they are women.
Most of the people aren't berating people who don't share the same viewpoint, they're questioning it, which they have every right do. They feel the assumptions many people make in coming to a certain conclusion is either misguided, incorrect or ignorant and it's the entire premise of argument to attack the assumptions that an opposing argument is built on. In other words, lighten up.
Devolution
Member
You called me a bigot in the other thread for questioning the logic of individuals who will not date trans people because I applied the same logic to cis women.
To the bolded: we should never strive to change anything because it won't be accepted in our life time. That's a wonderful attitude that strives towards progress.
charlequin
Banned
PhoenixDark
Banned
I made the comparison to make a general point: recognizing someone is attractive and being sexually attracted are two different things. I recognize the difference between how I would view the body of a man vs the body of a feminine trans person, but I would not knowingly become involved, sexually or non-sexually, with either.
You are correct, the root of the problem for me is that they were born male, as I have said - I cannot get over that fact personally, and would feel uncomfortable as a straight man.
I'm not saying opinions are never wrong. My opinion is based on a biological fact that influences how I view the issue - and my sexuality plays a part as well.
What strikes me as somewhat worrying is how similar this line of reasoning is to the justifications as to other unspeakable propositions used in the past about women or people of different race.
I posted in the other thread about "preferences" against partners of other races declining in concert with acceptable racism. I actually went looking for my specific post, but got distracted with the ten pages of new discussion (most of it awful). Briefly, I find it likely that some of these preferences are not innate, but rather prejudices absorbed from ambient (or forceful) cisnormative/heteronormative culture. As such, I don't think that preferences categorically excluding trans women are unassailable like many other preferences are (for example, you can't really be challenged on disliking brunettes, but it's also unlikely that you'd reject out of hand all brunettes the same as is being done here with trans people). Prejudice can (and often should) be challenged and overcome. I'm not trying to force anyone to sleep with anyone else, just trying to point out a similar case where preferences turned out to be unjustified and changeable (and, honestly, quite distasteful).
Edit: Waded back through to pull it out, since it wasn't treated very seriously over there.
I've been thinking a lot about "preferences" since the last thread, and how it's easy for people to retreat to them since surely sexual preferences are unassailable. However, the conclusion I've come to is that, for many people, their preferences in this area aren't necessarily their preferences, but rather ingrained institutional homophobia or transphobia, and therefore fair game for challenge. I've previously asked posters to do some serious soul-searching about the roots of their feelings on whether they could or couldn't date a trans person, and it seems like few do. So I poked around and tried to find something analogous I could use to demonstrate why all "preferences" aren't safe from question.
What I finally settled on is interracial marriage. We don't have polls about "who you'd date" or "who you'd find attractive," but I think that polls on interracial marriage probably correlate pretty highly with both of those. So, here's some current data:
Okay, so Southerners oppose interracial marriage more often than other groups, and Mississippi Republicans do so at higher rates than almost anyone else. Why might this be? If you asked these people, they'd probably say that they just don't want to date other races, that it's just their preference. But why are the rates so different across the population? Is it that people who don't want to date black people migrate to the South? People who are okay with it migrate westward? I find it more likely that pervasive culture influences people to develop and hold preferences that are otherwise unnatural. That is, some preferences aren't innate.
I'm not suggesting that you can't state that you don't like white girls, or that brown guys just don't do it for you and you don't know why. But, demonstrably, in areas with less ingrained prejudice, people magically demonstrate fewer such preferences. Confronting internalized prejudiced isn't fun or easy, but we've done it in other areas of society to our great benefit, and we've seen fiercely defended "preferences" fall by the wayside as we become more accepting of people different from us.
So if you popped into the thread just to lay down a categorical "no" to the concept of ever dating a trans person, I have to wonder if the same forces might be at work here. I encourage people to reflect more sincerely on issues like these, and I don't think that preferences that may have been externally fostered are due the same deference as innate preferences.
Anyway, just something I've been thinking about.
What I finally settled on is interracial marriage. We don't have polls about "who you'd date" or "who you'd find attractive," but I think that polls on interracial marriage probably correlate pretty highly with both of those. So, here's some current data:
[url=http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/11/mississippi-voters-on-a-variety-of-topics.html#more]PPP poll of GOP voters in Mississippi[/url] said:
The Economist was referencing this Gallup poll:[url=http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2012/03/republican-primaries]The Economist[/url] said:
Okay, so Southerners oppose interracial marriage more often than other groups, and Mississippi Republicans do so at higher rates than almost anyone else. Why might this be? If you asked these people, they'd probably say that they just don't want to date other races, that it's just their preference. But why are the rates so different across the population? Is it that people who don't want to date black people migrate to the South? People who are okay with it migrate westward? I find it more likely that pervasive culture influences people to develop and hold preferences that are otherwise unnatural. That is, some preferences aren't innate.
I'm not suggesting that you can't state that you don't like white girls, or that brown guys just don't do it for you and you don't know why. But, demonstrably, in areas with less ingrained prejudice, people magically demonstrate fewer such preferences. Confronting internalized prejudiced isn't fun or easy, but we've done it in other areas of society to our great benefit, and we've seen fiercely defended "preferences" fall by the wayside as we become more accepting of people different from us.
So if you popped into the thread just to lay down a categorical "no" to the concept of ever dating a trans person, I have to wonder if the same forces might be at work here. I encourage people to reflect more sincerely on issues like these, and I don't think that preferences that may have been externally fostered are due the same deference as innate preferences.
Anyway, just something I've been thinking about.
That doesn't really address the confusion I pointed to. Those words do have slightly different meanings (male/female are both adjectives and nouns, as well as being applicable to non-humans), but their meanings have been entwined for quite a while.
It seems that the two are linked due to the origins of gender theory, which was in the societal expectations put upon those of a given sex. The more I read about gender, the more it makes sense to me as being useful for constructing models of how our society behaves.
On the other hand, it suggests that a lot of actions taken in the name of tolerance seem to reinforce historical gender roles (even if people may move freely between those roles). Seems like a reasonable trade-off to not put people through hardship now, even if it means delaying the deterioration of gender for a while.
This has certainly been a useful thread. I think I learned a lot.
Shouta
Member
Good post, thatbox. I have a few grips with the last section but eh, good enough for what the point of it is. I'd add the cookie diagram and an explanation. It would give better context to what you're saying.
At the very least, you recognize this. Many people don't acknowledge it's an issue with their own views. Attraction is a rather interesting thing though but never gets addressed directly in threads pertaining to relationships, sex, etc.
At the very least, you recognize this. Many people don't acknowledge it's an issue with their own views. Attraction is a rather interesting thing though but never gets addressed directly in threads pertaining to relationships, sex, etc.
You aren't feeling uncomfortable "as a straight man" - straight men can and do love trans women. You're feeling uncomfortable as someone with a distaste for trans women.
Your opinions aren't based on facts, because the facts you cite are irrelevant to attraction and relationships - which are almost completely functions of initial impressions and social compatibility. Your sexuality certainly doesn't play a part, as your orientation includes women of all types from which you then pick and choose.
PhoenixDark
Banned
You're right, straight men can and do love trans women; I haven't denied that. But most don't, and I fall in that category. I hold no ill will or disrespect towards them, in fact I wish them well. I just have no sexual attraction or interest in being involved with anyone who was born a man.
Devolution
Member
Does it somehow question your heterosexuality? I keep hearing the why, but not the how in these justifications.
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