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[charlequin]

You make it sound as though anyone who doesn't participate in the conversation following the minority's edict is somehow a privileged aggressor.

No, I said the first step in mutual respect is for people who are relatively advantaged to accept the preferred nomenclature and framing of those who are relatively disadvantaged. I don't think that's either a particularly judgmental or unreasonable claim.

That doesn't mean that those terms should be the sole terms of expression. Personally I think it's healthier to have guiding tenets such as empathy and compassion rather that a narrowly prescribed vocabulary

Anyone participating in one of these conversations while being guided by empathy and compassion is going to start right off the bat by just referring to others with their preferred language because that's the polite, reasonable thing to do.

I mean, let me break this down. Let's say you're dating a girl named Elizabeth who hates all the innumerable diminutives of her name. At a big party you introduce her to someone important (parent, friend, whatever) and despite being told clearly about her name preferences, that person calls her "Lizzie" all night, and when called on it laughs and says "hey, I'm joking!" Isn't that straightforwardly rude, the kind of asshole power play people do to prove they can dominate others socially because they don't give a shit about other people's feelings?

That's what all this is like: it's calling someone "Lizzie" just to prove that they can. A reasonable person is going to have it explained once and (absent momentary brainfreeze or wild drunkenness) use the right name from then on, even if they personally think "Elizabeth" is a stilted old-lady name while "Lizzie" is fun and exciting, because that's just what reasonable people do.

I get it, I totally do, when people feel like they're subject to either rudeness or mod sanction simply for not knowing the right way to talk about a relatively complex and unfamiliar issue. That's why I think threads like this are helpful -- because then we can easily point out what sort of behavior might be inappropriate without yelling at anyone.

 

[charlequin]

Why does it matter what genitals you have?

Basically, because your brain has a pretty deeply ingrained mental model of what your body should be built like, and if the model shows a female body while the actual body is male, it causes a lot of anguish and unpleasantness.

(I mean, it's also more complicated than that, but that's a pretty core aspect of the problem: it turns out that the gender people see themselves as is partially driven by their brain's model, and most people just never notice because normally that model is in line with their actual body.)

 

[Christine]

I mean, let me break this down. Let's say you're dating a girl named Elizabeth who hates all the innumerable diminutives of her name. At a big party you introduce her to someone important (parent, friend, whatever) and despite being told clearly about her name preferences, that person calls her "Lizzie" all night, and when called on it laughs and says "hey, I'm joking!" Isn't that straightforwardly rude, the kind of asshole power play people do to prove they can dominate others socially because they don't give a shit about other people's feelings?

That's what all this is like: it's calling someone "Lizzie" just to prove that they can. A reasonable person is going to have it explained once and (absent momentary brainfreeze or wild drunkenness) use the right name from then on, even if they personally think "Elizabeth" is a stilted old-lady name while "Lizzie" is fun and exciting, because that's just what reasonable people do.

I actually had someone make this exact request of me, he wanted to be called 'Christopher', no abbreviations or diminutives. Customer I was on first-name basis with.

 

[KevinCow]

Basically, because your brain has a pretty deeply ingrained mental model of what your body should be built like, and if the model shows a female body while the actual body is male, it causes a lot of anguish and unpleasantness.

(I mean, it's also more complicated than that, but that's a pretty core aspect of the problem: it turns out that the gender people see themselves as is partially driven by their brain's model, and most people just never notice because normally that model is in line with their actual body.)

I understand that. I just have trouble understanding how the brain's model of what the body should be like is separate from the observation of what the body is like. If you've grown up looking at a male body your whole life, why would your brain think it's supposed to be female?

Again, I'm not trying to argue or judge. Just trying to understand something that I'm sure I'll never be able to totally understand.

 

[Brian Griffin]

I understand that. I just have trouble understanding how the brain's model of what the body should be like is separate from the observation of what the body is like. If you've grown up looking at a male body your whole life, why would your brain think it's supposed to be female?

Again, I'm not trying to argue or judge. Just trying to understand something that I'm sure I'll never be able to totally understand.

You're thinking about it backwards. The brain already has the image from very early on (see trans children) instead of having it built up by living in a certain body for a long time. It's been mentioned that trans women have brains more similar to cis women than men, even though they were born with a male body. This suggests the brain has the correct body image from the start but the body that develops doesn't always match what is in the brain.

 

[Platy]

Still, while I support him, I can't say I totally understand the whole thing. Why does it matter what genitals you have? Like, for me, I consider myself a man because I have a penis. I consider myself a straight male because I'm attracted to women. I don't really understand what the difference is for my cousin between being a straight female and a gay transgendered male.

You really don't see ANY diference between a straight female and a gay male ?

You really need to get out more =P

I think that the easiest way for you to start understanding is thinking about how many times you (and by you i'm guessing you are a straight male) said "how the fuck the brain of women work ?" and then see that gay people say that all the time.

 

[Rayis]

This is one of the few gaming communities that is actually respectful to trans people (you could say is forced but is just filtering out the shitty people) so honestly, as a person with mild gender dysphoria who is never gonna transition, I really appreciate the respect

 

[Brian Griffin]

This is one of the few gaming communities that is actually respectful to trans people (you could say is forced but is just filtering out the shitty people) so honestly, as a person with mild gender dysphoria who is never gonna transition, I really appreciate the respect

Here here! A combination of brave trans people coming out to start the conversation and good mods who swing their ban hammers swift and true have created something really cool here. This is the first forum I ever decided to join and participate in so I'm glad I picked a good one.

 

[plasticpassion]

Interesting information and a good read. Thanks for taking the time to compile it, OP.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

I read the entire OP, and some of the links, and I still have no idea why you say Gender Dysphoria is not a mental disorder.

"A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators: [2, 3, 4]**

1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

6. a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability** "


A strong desire, a marked incongruence, a strong conviction, a strong desire.... How can you possibly say that when someone's brain is telling them, in every way that it can, that that they have the wrong body, that that is not a mental disorder? That's exactly what it is. The treatment for the disorder is the surgery and therapy.

 

[Femmeworth]

"Mental disorder" implies the problem lies with the brain, when it is the rest of the body at fault. So to speak.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

"Mental disorder" implies the problem lies with the brain, when it is the rest of the body at fault.

Because the brain says it's at fault. Everything is determined by the brain.

 

[Brian Griffin]

I read the entire OP, and some of the links, and I still have no idea why you say Gender Dysphoria is not a mental disorder.

"A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators: [2, 3, 4]**

1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

6. a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability** "


A strong desire, a marked incongruence, a strong conviction, a strong desire.... How can you possibly say that when someone's brain is telling them, in every way that it can, that that they have the wrong body, that that is not a mental disorder? That's exactly what it is. The treatment for the disorder is the surgery and therapy.

"Mental disorder" suggests that there is something wrong with the brain which is not the case.

EDIT: beaten

Because the brain says it's at fault. Everything is determined by the brain.

Exactly. The brain has determined that it is not in the correct body.

 

[Vermillion]

Quick note - for those saying that they wouldn't date a transsexual woman because they "are still a man" or "they used to be a man," this implies you'd date a transsexual man, right?

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Exactly. The brain has determined that it is not in the correct body.

How is that determination not a disorder? How does such an extreme, or I guess I could say "total" rejection of one's body by the mind not constitute a disorder? The vast majority of the world's population have their mind and body in sync.

 

[Femmeworth]

Because the brain says it's at fault. Everything is determined by the brain.

Not exactly. (Environment ->) DNA -> Brain -> Body

Here's the current proposed definition of "mental disorder" for the new DSM.

A Mental Disorder is a health condition characterized by significant dysfunction in an individual’s cognitions, emotions, or behaviors that reflects a disturbance in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Some disorders may not be diagnosable until they have caused clinically significant distress or impairment of performance.

A mental disorder is not merely an expectable or culturally sanctioned response to a specific event such as the death of a loved one. Neither culturally deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) nor a conflict that is primarily between the individual and society is a mental disorder unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above.

http://www.dsm5.org/proposedrevisions/pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=465

 

[thatbox]

I read the entire OP, and some of the links, and I still have no idea why you say Gender Dysphoria is not a mental disorder.

"A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by 2* or more of the following indicators: [2, 3, 4]**

1. a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or, in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [13, 16]

2. a strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or, in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics) [17]

3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

4. a strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

5. a strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

6. a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

B. The condition is associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning, or with a significantly increased risk of suffering, such as distress or disability** "


A strong desire, a marked incongruence, a strong conviction, a strong desire.... How can you possibly say that when someone's brain is telling them, in every way that it can, that that they have the wrong body, that that is not a mental disorder? That's exactly what it is. The treatment for the disorder is the surgery and therapy.

...

How is that determination not a disorder? How does such an extreme, or I guess I could say "total" rejection of one's body by the mind not constitute a disorder? The vast majority of the world's population have their mind and body in sync.

Most simply, gender dysphoria is a symptom of a physical problem that largely evaporates after being treated with physical solutions. With the GID diagnosis, a healthy, happy post-transition trans woman was still considered to have a mental disorder. With the new classification, only trans people facing the distress of gender dysphoria will be in the DSM-V. This way, healthy, happy men and women won't be told they're mentally ill.

 

[Alucrid]

How is that determination not a disorder? How does such an extreme, or I guess I could say "total" rejection of one's body by the mind not constitute a disorder? The vast majority of the world's population have their mind and body in sync.

A disorder would imply that their mental state is wrong and that the correct solution would be to extinguish any thoughts of being of a different gender than that of their body.

 

[Ghost_Protocol]

Most simply, gender dysphoria is a symptom of a physical problem that largely evaporates after being treated with physical solutions. With the GID diagnosis, a healthy, happy post-transition trans woman was still considered to have a mental disorder. With the new classification, only trans people facing the distress of gender dysphoria will be in the DSM-V. This way, healthy, happy men and women won't be told they're mentally ill.

Ok

A disorder would imply that their mental state is wrong and that the correct solution would be to extinguish any thoughts of being of a different gender than that of their body.

which is accomplished through surgery/hormone therapy/treatment/etc. That's exactly what happens.

 

[Femmeworth]

Another way to think of it is that the needs of the brain take precedence over the rest of the body.

 

[thatbox]

Ok

If you're interested in further reading, this paper discusses the changes in the DSM-V (it costs money, but you can still read the abstract for an idea), and this paper discusses some of the problems with GID as it exists in the DSM-IV. It's also pretty easy to find non-scholarly articles (simply in that they don't appear in journals, or aren't peer reviewed, or are someone's summary of a study) on this topic. Just search for for some combination of GID/dysphoria/DSM/removal/etc.

 

[Femmeworth]

This also talks about the rationale for the change.

 

[thatbox]

This also talks about the rationale for the change.

That's perfect, Femme. I forgot that was there on the DSM site. It's much more approachable than my PDFs.

 

[IrishNinja]

glad i got around to this, fantastic OP. learned a lot from the trans community here on GAF as well, nice have a catch-all thread for info like this.

and to think i just found it searching for what finally buried holywars, heh

 

[JasonUresti]

Most simply, gender dysphoria is a symptom of a physical problem that largely evaporates after being treated with physical solutions. With the GID diagnosis, a healthy, happy post-transition trans woman was still considered to have a mental disorder. With the new classification, only trans people facing the distress of gender dysphoria will be in the DSM-V. This way, healthy, happy men and women won't be told they're mentally ill.

Not to be rude, but most men and women with a mental disorder are healthy and happy with treatment and support.

The language reasons for the reclassification are fine, but I have the (probably paranoid) suspicion that much of the efforts to get this moved from being classed as a mental illness was due to the stigma around the mentally ill. A "Let's distance ourselves from those poor crazy bastards so we can be taken more seriously" move.

This hits close to home in a number of ways for me, so I am probably being overly sensitive and suspicious. I'm also very tired. Good night.

 

[Platy]

The problem with calling a mental illness is basicaly how the treatment happens.

All mental illness are treated with chemicals that basicaly change the chemical balance on the brain ... and you can put as much chemicals as you want in the brain and a male brain will not become a female brain (wich are physicaly diferent) because this is something that happens in the uterus and cannot be changed later.... or otherwise men with prostate cancer would become transwoman after the treatment... same with old people on the andropause

So the only way to fix it is changing the body

 

[Shurs]

The problem with calling a mental illness is basicaly how the treatment happens.

All mental illness are treated with chemicals that basicaly change the chemical balance on the brain ... and you can put as much chemicals as you want in the brain and a male brain will not become a female brain (wich are physicaly diferent) because this is something that happens in the uterus and cannot be changed later.... or otherwise men with prostate cancer would become transwoman after the treatment... same with old people on the andropause

So the only way to fix it is changing the body

Hormones don't affect the brain?

 

[Platy]

Not enoght to change genders.

Testosterone might afect things like violence and sexual drive and estrogen might afect things related to pms symptoms (like being more sensitive and crying more easily) .... but nothing more.

You will not become even gay if you get an overdose of estrogen and anti-testosterone

Any change related to sexual orientation to trans people is related to be release of any self blocking, not hormone afecting the brain

 

[Shurs]

Not enoght to change genders.

Testosterone might afect things like violence and sexual drive and estrogen might afect things related to pms symptoms (like being more sensitive and crying more easily) .... but nothing more.

You will not become even gay if you get an overdose of estrogen and anti-testosterone

Any change related to sexual orientation to trans people is related to be release of any self blocking, not hormone afecting the brain

Who was talking about sexual orientation?

 

[Platy]

Lots of people talk about an homosexual orientation as being just an hormonal problem or whatever .... so i'm just covering all the possible bases =P

 

[iirate]

Not enoght to change genders.

Testosterone might afect things like violence and sexual drive and estrogen might afect things related to pms symptoms (like being more sensitive and crying more easily) .... but nothing more.

You will not become even gay if you get an overdose of estrogen and anti-testosterone

Any change related to sexual orientation to trans people is related to be release of any self blocking, not hormone afecting the brain

Is this something that we know for sure? I thought that we didn't know exactly what factors into someone's sexual orientation and to what extent they do. What you said certainly seems possible, and I'm far from any sort of authority on this, but I don't think what you said is verifiable.

 

[Platy]

As I said, there are absolutly no change in sexual orientation or anything in people with prostate cancer and the medicine they need to take is basicaly the same (in lower dose, of course) that transwoman need to take at the begining of their transition.

Other people who has increased decline of testosterone are castrated rapists and old man in andropause and still absolutly no change.

High levels of testosterone on ciswomen that are not on hrt usualy cause only increase in libido, hair and acne at most... not even close to increaseness of lesbianism or even bisexuality


Just look at those hairy bears type of gays ... they have way too much testosterone to like guys if this affected =P

 

[GungHo]

We should just go back to using all sorts of insulting terms for minorities. I mean since we're so "PC and all" today.

I'm ok with this provided we can also open up the gates for "incitement" as a defense when being prosecuted for battery.

 

[rCIZZLE]

I'm kind of curious about something... are the vast majority of transgenders M2F? I know GAF is a small sample size and I don't know any transgenders irl (that I'm aware of) but I can't crossing paths with any F2M.

 

[Dead Man]

So this is an excellent thread that I missed. Nothing else to say, just wanted to praise it.

Edit: Well, certainly an excellent OP with some great posts in the thread too.

 

[mantidor]

"Mental disorder" implies the problem lies with the brain, when it is the rest of the body at fault. So to speak.

But the body is completely healthy.

A disorder would imply that their mental state is wrong and that the correct solution would be to extinguish any thoughts of being of a different gender than that of their body.

If such thing was possible wouldn't it be also a perfectly viable treatment for gender dysphoria?

Another way to think of it is that the needs of the brain take precedence over the rest of the body.

And I don't like that line of thought, some mental disorders could put the body and even life at harm, just saying the brain should take precedence is not wise.


I think the easiest way to explain my point of view is the very controversial Body Integrity Disorder, which is honestly by all intent an purposes in the same line as gender disphoria, the body feels wrong and treatment is needed. Gender reassignment surgery from that medical point of view is no different from medical amputation for BID sufferers. I was absolutely shocked about this when I read about the condition, but I couldn't help to see the paralels to gender dysphoria.

BID is extremely rare, far less common than gender disphoria, and treatment for GD is not as harmful, although it does render the patient sterile, but at least you are not actually mutilating important parts of your body, however the discussion still remains, maybe a leg is not that important. I mean is a penis more important than a leg? ok maybe this is a huge can of worms, but I just wanted to mention that.

I understand how words like "disease" or "disorder" are harmful, and sadly lead to stigma and prejudice, but the condition of trans people requires medical intervention, is very hard to not call it a disorder.

 

[iirate]

I'm kind of curious about something... are the vast majority of transgenders M2F? I know GAF is a small sample size and I don't know any transgenders irl (that I'm aware of) but I can't crossing paths with any F2M.

The trans man and trans woman populations are supposed to be relatively even - from what I've both heard and seen, there are more trans women active on the internet and more trans men that meet and organize IRL. The trans online communities that I take part in are mostly trans women, but the trans group I'm part of on my college campus actually has a (small) trans man majority and the leadership is trans man dominated.

 

[The Storyteller]

Apologies if this has been posted but I thought this was a really great story on transgender teens (Australian context):

Transsexuality is not a 'lifestyle choice'

 

[alysonwheel]

The trans man and trans woman populations are supposed to be relatively even - from what I've both heard and seen, there are more trans women active on the internet and more trans men that meet and organize IRL.

Depends where on the web you go, too. Reddit's trans population is skewed towards trans women, for example, and you can't spend thirty seconds on Tumblr without falling over a dozen trans men.

 

[Brian Griffin]

But the body is completely healthy.

True, but that doesn't change the fact that it causes extreme discomfort to the person with GD.

If such thing was possible wouldn't it be also a perfectly viable treatment for gender dysphoria?

Probably, but it isn't possible. Even if it were though it would be like self-brainwashing which I don't think would be very popular.

And I don't like that line of thought, some mental disorders could put the body and even life at harm, just saying the brain should take precedence is not wise.

For mental disorders, yeah, the brain probably shouldn't dictate what should be done to the body. Trans people however, do not have a mental disorder so their brains take precedence. You might not like it, but the medical experts strongly disagree with you.

I think the easiest way to explain my point of view is the very controversial Body Integrity Disorder, which is honestly by all intent an purposes in the same line as gender disphoria, the body feels wrong and treatment is needed. Gender reassignment surgery from that medical point of view is no different from medical amputation for BID sufferers. I was absolutely shocked about this when I read about the condition, but I couldn't help to see the paralels to gender dysphoria.

BID is extremely rare, far less common than gender disphoria, and treatment for GD is not as harmful, although it does render the patient sterile, but at least you are not actually mutilating important parts of your body, however the discussion still remains, maybe a leg is not that important. I mean is a penis more important than a leg? ok maybe this is a huge can of worms, but I just wanted to mention that.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this? I'm not attacking you or anything, I just want to know what you are getting at.

I understand how words like "disease" or "disorder" are harmful, and sadly lead to stigma and prejudice, but the condition of trans people requires medical intervention, is very hard to not call it a disorder

It still is a disorder in the sense that something isn't "correct", however the disorder lies with the body not the brain.

 

[Christine]

If such thing was possible wouldn't it be also a perfectly viable treatment for gender dysphoria?

How much does it matter that I do not want such a treatment?

 

[Shouta]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this? I'm not attacking you or anything, I just want to know what you are getting at.

I think he's trying to point out that Body Integrity Identity Disorder and Gender Identity Dysphoria are very similar. The basic idea behind it is that the mind fails to synch with the body properly and creating a sense of incompleteness despite it functioning normally. Both BIID and GID are similar in that regard though the affected locations differ and the subsequent consequences are different.

Which leads to his question of why is BIID consider a mental disorder when GID is not? There are quite a few parallels and it would seem to him that it's strange to make the distinction between the two.

I assume that's his line of thinking. It's certainly an interesting train of thought.

 

[mantidor]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with this? I'm not attacking you or anything, I just want to know what you are getting at.

I think he's trying to point out that Body Integrity Identity Disorder and Gender Identity Dysphoria are very similar. The basic idea behind it is that the mind fails to synch with the body properly and creating a sense of incompleteness despite it functioning normally. Both BIID and GID are similar in that regard though the affected locations differ and the subsequent consequences are different.

Which leads to his question of why is BIID consider a mental disorder when GID is not? There are quite a few parallels and it would seem to him that it's strange to make the distinction between the two.

I assume that's his line of thinking. It's certainly an interesting train of thought.

Thanks for explaining better than I could, yes that is my point of view. While is not the nicest thing in the world to be told you have a "disorder", is very difficult to not call it like that, and opens the discussion of whether is mental or not since the body as I said is perfectly healthy.

Mental disorders doesn't mean you are insane, in many cases is a physiological problem of the brain itself. But I guess that is what bothers transpeople about the label of "mental disorder".

 

[yeoz]

As someone who does suffer from gender dysphoria, and who believes if the parallels between the two are really what some claim they are; I can actually see how someone suffering from BIID is actually *suffering*, and how amputation of the offending limb could positively help those people, and offer them relief from that.

Once the limb is amputated, can you really say the person is affected by BIID anymore? No, because it's cured presumably at that point, right? The cause (arguably?) of their affliction is gone.

It's the same here. After undergoing HRT and possibly reassignment surgery, are we really affected by a *disorder* anymore?

edit: I personally believe that people suffering from BIID *should* be allowed to have their limbs medically amputated (perhaps after a significant, thorough and lengthy review by a psychiatrist and/or therapist. As is the case with transgender people and their various surgeries now...)

 

[SquiddyCracker]

As someone who does suffer from gender dysphoria, and who believes if the parallels between the two are really what some claim they are; I can actually see how someone suffering from BIID is actually *suffering*, and how amputation of the offending limb could positively help those people, and offer them relief from that.

Once the limb is amputated, can you really say the person is affected by BIID anymore? No, because it's cured presumably at that point, right? The cause (arguably?) of their affliction is gone.

It's the same here. After undergoing HRT and possibly reassignment surgery, are we really affected by a *disorder* anymore?

edit: I personally believe that people suffering from BIID *should* be allowed to have their limbs medically amputated (perhaps after a significant, thorough and lengthy review by a psychiatrist and/or therapist. As is the case with transgender people and their various surgeries now...)

It's a lot more clear-cut than one might think in my opinion.

At the moment, it's a lot "easier" to go through various medical interventions and change the body to correspond to what the mind want the body to be like, than to change the mind to accept the body as is. We are woefully equipped to drastically change the brain in such a manner (we're talking about redistributing the amount of grey/white neuron matter when it comes to gender dysphoria) and thus our only remaining treatments are HRT and SRS.
With BIID though, the brain might not be that different from someone without BIID, and it might be in order to attempt to change their way of thinking through medical and psychiatric intervention.

 

[Nesotenso]

You're right, straight men can and do love trans women; I haven't denied that. But most don't, and I fall in that category. I hold no ill will or disrespect towards them, in fact I wish them well. I just have no sexual attraction or interest in being involved with anyone who was born a man.

yup you have basically stated how I feel in most of your posts. I realize it is my own hypocrisy and failings but it is a mental hurdle I will never over come.

 

[thatbox]

I'm not particularly comfortable with the conflation of BIID and gender dysphoria, especially in light of the changes coming to the DSM-V. It is also my current understanding SSRIs, and occasionally antipsychotics, seem to be indicated as at least a somewhat possible treatment for BIID, while they don't resolve gender dysphoria. This writeup is pretty close to my position, although I can easily recognize and acknowledge reasonable disagreements with it:

But on the other hand… would it be a lack of compassion to simply ask that care be taken when using this comparison, to do so carefully, with awareness of the negative conclusions that can (and will) be drawn, and take care to articulate the differences that exist between the two conditions?

What I see as the primary difference is precisely that concept of reduction or loss. Alhough concepts of health or optimal human ability are, to a degree, subjective and culturally mediated, I think it’s both valid and possible to posit models of general basic human physical health / ability, and mental health / ability. Relative to such models, the overall psychological benefit of transition in comparison to the physiological harm is much more clear and less ambiguous than in the case of procedures for BIID. There is virtually no actual loss of health or function in the case of transition… the only real example of such we can point to is fertility. All other potential losses are purely socio-cultural. In the case of BIID, however, there is almost by definition a majour loss of function or ability (which is weighed against the possible benefit to mental health). The individual pursuing the treatment may not personally regard it as a loss, but relative to an overall model of optimal human health and ability? I’m afraid it wouldn’t be unreasonable to regard it as such.

yup you have basically stated how I feel in most of your posts. I realize it is my own hypocrisy and failings but it is a mental hurdle I will never over come.

Eh, I find it hard to believe that that's necessarily immutable. I simply think that most people are never challenged to test it or push up against it because it's relatively unlikely you'll wind up on a date with a trans person - and if you do, it's easy to dismiss them without thought because the next person you take out will probably be cis. Path of least resistance, and all that. Self-reflection is hard.

 

[Platy]

I think that an easy way to see the diference is that if you take away the brain of a cisgender male,a transmale and a male with BIID in a crazy scientist way you will have :

1)"normal" male brain

2)"normal" male brain

3)brain that feels that it needs to be in the body without a limb that a "normal" male body don't have.

 

[yeoz]

I'm not particularly comfortable with the conflation of BIID and gender dysphoria, especially in light of the changes coming to the DSM-V. It is also my current understanding SSRIs, and occasionally antipsychotics, seem to be indicated as at least a somewhat possible treatment for BIID, while they don't resolve gender dysphoria.

If someone suggested that I try treating my gender dysphoria with antidepressants or antipsychotics, I'd scoff at that very suggestion. Certainly because such a treatment doesn't exist at present; but that doesn't bar a drug or treatment from being developed in the future. If and when that happens, would being trans suddenly become a condition that should be medicated away? Why or why not?

I think that an easy way to see the diference is that if you take away the brain of a cisgender male,a transmale and a male with BIID in a crazy scientist way you will have :

1)"normal" male brain

2)"normal" male brain

3)brain that feels that it needs to be in the body without a limb that a "normal" male body don't have.

You could just as easily say that the 2nd brain was "a brain that feels that it needs to be in male body with the males parts that a 'normal' female body doesn't have".
Obviously this is a position I disagree with.

 

[mantidor]

I think that an easy way to see the diference is that if you take away the brain of a cisgender male,a transmale and a male with BIID in a crazy scientist way you will have :

1)"normal" male brain

2)"normal" male brain

3)brain that feels that it needs to be in the body without a limb that a "normal" male body don't have.

There are similarities between transgender woman brains and regular women brains, but I didn't know they were considered the exact same thing, is this true? I'm pretty sure there are still differences but correct my if I'm wrong.

Now BIID is a very interesting case because it gives a glimpse into how the brain maps its own body, amputees from accidents still feel their limbs as ghosts, BIID is the opposite in some way, gender dysphoria takes that mapping to a whole different level. I do honestly think brains in jar a la futurama cannot exist, the brain needs the body in some way.

Also, I've seen glimpses of those documentaries about BIID, antipsychotics aren't that effective, and ultimately most sufferers severe their own limbs. There was not too long ago an article about a woman wiht BIID who removed her own leg, was happily married and with kids, an the letter was kind of a release from her, because she obviously hide the condition and covered it up with a story about how she lost her limb on an accident. Of course everyone was appalled, including me, but it caused me a lot of curiosity about the condition.