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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy

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It increases the impact. Sure, they usually tend to be indentified after days or weeks, but that isn't even guaranteed if for example the terrorist gets blown to bits (e.g. suicide bomber). But if that information becomes public on the day or even one day after the terror attack when everyone is still trying to comprehend and reeling from what happened and when the emotional shock is still the strongest? Remember that terror attacks are ALL about creating chaos and panick and spreading fear. This is just one part of it. And as I said it results in even more suspicion and blame against refugees which is something that ISIS wants, with the refugee crisis being a powder pack that can blow up at any time if you stir the pot hard and long enough.
I think pretty much any terror attack in Europe at the moment will be seen as something to do with Islamic terrorism, so getting the ID of these people does not add that much fear to the already existing ones.

It would be way easier to just come here as a tourist instead on a boat over the Mediterranean Sea.
Depends where you are coming from and if you can get a visa.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
It increases the impact. Sure, they usually tend to be indentified after days or weeks, but that isn't even guaranteed if for example the terrorist gets blown to bits (e.g. suicide bomber). But if that information becomes public on the day or even one day after the terror attack when everyone is still trying to comprehend and reeling from what happened and when the emotional shock is still the strongest? Remember that terror attacks are ALL about creating chaos and panick and spreading fear. This is just one part of it. And as I said it results in even more suspicion and blame against refugees which is something that ISIS wants, with the refugee crisis being a powder pack that can blow up at any time if you stir the pot hard and long enough.

This is what I mean when I say it sounds more like a conspiracy though. If you were not a refugee and were planning to stir the pot by using fake papers it would only work if they could never identify you. It's much more likely, as Joni said, that they have paperwork on them because they could be stopped and picked up by the police for any number of reasons that day or (in the Paris example) someone was looking to spread misinformation but that would quickly be corrected.

It would be way easier to just come here as a tourist instead on a boat over the Mediterranean Sea.

I'm sure they would if they could.
 
this puts Shengen into question when shit like this happens
Not really. I mean, if someone commits a crime in New York and is caught in Chicago, it's a bit of the same to me. The distances aren't that big. And we can't close the borders within the EU totally off anyway. I love Schengen and I don't want those borders to close - although I think some of the newest additions have come a bit too fast and we need time without new countries for a while so everyone can catch up.

The problem is enforcement of the rules and some common sense, like not having proven criminals walk around freely while they should be deported.
 

El Topo

Member
First of all, sorry it took me so long to answer.

And as you are hopefully well aware the basis of free movement within of Schengen is secured exterior borders. That was obviously not the case last year and still isn't in Italy and as such it was obvious to install border controls as long as the exterior borders are not secured properly.

The point is that it is a European problem that got ignored by Europe (as a whole). We have known about this for more than a decade, we have ignored Southern Europe when they asked for help. Merkel, or rather most German parties, deserve their share of blame for not working towards a solution, but I also think it would be delusional to assume that the German public would have been in favor of that. Spending money for a problem that seems far away was never very popular. Offloading the problem to another European country was never a viable solution either though and it has come back to bite us. What you call "open door policy" is a failure of Europe.

I mean right now germany controls the border to austria 24/7 so it's not some crazy fantasy. The difference being that they didn't do it back in 2015 and not in anywhere near the quality of border controls that would have been requried to be able to continue to keep security up.

The idea that the influx of immigrants could have been vetted through border control is fantasy. That is maybe possible for border stops/access points, but not in general. A mere look at German authorities should be sufficient for that. The question therefore (for me) should be how we deal with immigration in general, not whether we can successfully offload the problem e.g. to Italy, which I would like to add would only cause other issues. The truth is that this is a European problem that we have to deal with together. That doesn't mean that one has to be in favor of letting immigrants in, but one should provide a reasonable solution.

Of course the migration streams were already very high in the months before and the people did not just beam there once Merkel made her statement. So good thing I never said that.

My statement happened since you did not intially respond to my challenge and due to the general idea of putting the (sole) blame on Merkel (if not voiced by you, at least voiced by many), the latter of which I find highly problematic. If that was not your intention I apologize.

I purposefully said she signal-boosted the message of "Syrians are welcome here" which led to the increase of fake passes, people thinking germany is now taking in everyone and further encouraging migration movement. As did pictures of people clapping on the train stations to refugees arriving. Pretty much every european politician that isn't from germany agrees nowadays that Merkels statement was a mistake. Even her own sister-party agrees.

I am asking for a quantification on the effects of Merkel's statement and how the situation would look like without that statement. For example, how many immigrants would we have in Europe as a whole and in Germany in particular without her statements (at that time)? I think it is only reasonable to ask someone who criticizes X "What would it look like if X had not happened?" and demand an answer. Not necessarily of you, I know it is probably unreasonable to demand this of common people like us (because it takes a lot of time), but I would expect this of politicians. The reason I am so hung up on this is because we are once again letting populists and liars take over the political discussion, when we should be doing root cause analysis. That happens regarding all sorts of things, not just immigration.

Just to be clear, one can give Merkel blame for a lot of things. I don't think too highly of her, but if I look at the alternatives I shiver.
 
Adding to the pile of ignoring the danger of this guy: Moroccan intelligence service warned Germany twice about Anis Amri.

http://nos.nl/artikel/2149938-marokko-waarschuwde-duitsland-voor-anis-amri.html
http://mondafrique.com/attentat-de-berlin-marocains-avaient-prevenu-bnd-allemand/
http://www.bild.de/politik/inland/terrorberlin/marokkanischer-geheimdienst-49464326.bild.html

Bit of a translation from the Dutch source:

The secret service in Morocco (DGST), the German colleagues warned on two occasions that the Tunisian Anis Amri was willing to commit a terrorist attack. In a press release of the Moroccan Embassy in Berlin spokesperson Fatima Fertat writes that DGST on September 19 and October 11 informed German colleagues.

[..]

Months ago, according to the website Mouth Afrique already indicated, had Moroccan agents of the Secret Service Anis Amri as a follower of IS. That information would they have shared with Germany.

According to the German newspaper Bild was the Bundeskriminalamt, the Federal Criminal Investigation Department, were in possession of information of the Moroccan secret service. The top boss, Holger Münch, has commented that his employees receive hundreds of tips every year, not all of which can be verified.

Amri lived fourteen months illegally in Germany. He visited two supporters of IS in Dortmund. One of them would be a Russian, the other a Moroccan.

I get you can't follow up on everything and they have a lot of stuff coming in. But due to the pattern of criminal behavior, their own observations and warnings from foreign intelligence services it should be unacceptable someone like this was walking free.
 
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