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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy

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Only that Anis Amri was well-known.
It isn't that there is a large uncontrollable grey mass of Muslims and there are no forms of control like people claim here.
Look at the list of offenses this guy already committed and explain to me why people like him walk around free. He still needed to do years in prison in Tunisia even! He was locked up in Italy for 4 years. Contact with known extremists, tried to get assault rifles, drug trafficking, fake passports, two times not deported. If you think that is being in control, I got a bridge to sell you.

Also, there are 200.000 people in Germany right now that need to be deported, but aren't for one reason or another. I would not call that being in control.

Of course we don't need to overreact, but bringing in so many people is a difficult task and it seems Germany isn't handling it as well as they should.
 

EloKa

Member
Exactly, especcially as according to a poll from august 65% are not happy with Merkels refugee policy. And that's germany, now think of the less welcoming countries (as in basically everyone else other than Sweden). But it seems Merkels strategy of painting everything as "alternativlos" (no other alternatives existing) has worked with some at least.

http://de.reuters.com/article/deutschland-fl-chtlinge-umfrage-idDEKCN10G0BX

you can either trust a small, private survey from august with 1000 people or an official survey from this december: http://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Aktuelles/Politbarometer/

For some reason you decided once again to go with the small, old and unofficial one that fights your narrative.

You should either check your sources, simply go with official information or append some "sponsored by party XYZ" behind every single infomercial / post of yours.
 
you can either trust a small survey from august with 1000 people or an official survey from this december: http://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Aktuelles/Politbarometer/

For some reason you decided once again to go with the small, old and unofficial one that fights your narrative.

You should either check your sources, simply go with official information or append some "sponsored by party XYZ" behind every single post.
50% unhappy ain't really that much of a flattering statistic also. Added to that 58% see it as the most important issue right now. You're cherry picking also or leaving out information when it fits your agenda.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Look at the list of offenses this guy already committed and explain to me why people like him walk around free. He still needed to do years in prison in Tunisia even! He was locked up in Italy for 4 years. Contact with known extremists, tried to get assault rifles, drug trafficking, fake passports, two times not deported. If you think that is being in control, I got a bridge to sell you.

Also, there are 200.000 people in Germany right now that need to be deported, but aren't for one reason or another. I would not call that being in control.

Of course we don't need to overreact, but bringing in so many people is a difficult task and it seems Germany isn't handling it as well as they should.

He was locked up, but after he was released, control cannot go further than surveilance, as long as he does not commit a crime that you can prove. An in some instances, it might be more helpful to continue surveilance than to intervene even if a crime was commited. Regarding deportation: If the country a person comes from refuses to take that person, what do you suggest?
 

patapuf

Member
A representative democracy does not mean the people who voted for said parties now automatically like and support every complete 180° change in policy that opposes what the party stood for / the sister party even still opposes it for. Thus see the poll above that says 65% are unhappy with her policy, proving the opposite is the case.



Something tells me there might be a middle ground between Orwell 1984 and simply accepting people getting massacred by terrorists every few months.

Germans are not massacred by terrorists every few months and widespread goverment surveillance is a very recent memory in germany.

But it seems countries like the US or the UK need to live under it for a while to understand how quickly their "security" can blow up in their face.
 

EloKa

Member
50% unhappy ain't really that much of a flattering statistic also. Added to that 58% see it as the most important issue right now. You're cherry picking also or leaving out information when it fits your agenda.
50% voted with "rather good policiy", 45% answered with "rather bad policy". Within those 45% you have 54% that demand "small corrections" in the policy but generally agree with it.

Do the math and you'll figure out that those who oppose the policy in general aren't 65% of germany.
 

Joni

Member
I wonder what was his destination. Probably a safehouse in Italy, where he could hide for longer time period.

Tunesia would be my guess. Closest point to cross is from Italy.

Germany is the country that had Google blur the faces on Google Street View. It's the country where you can get in trouble taking a picture of someone who doesn't want his picture taken and where car dashboard cameras are not allowed because privacy. Germans are really paranoid about being photographed or filmed.

Germany just follows basic privacy rules.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
you can either trust a small, private survey from august with 1000 people or an official survey from this december: http://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Aktuelles/Politbarometer/

For some reason you decided once again to go with the small, old and unofficial one that fights your narrative.

You should either check your sources, simply go with official information or append some "sponsored by party XYZ" behind every single infomercial / post of yours.

Interesting, the ARD-Deutschlandtrend (by inframap dimap) is a "small, private survey with 1000 people" but the ZDF-Politbarometer (by Forschungsgruppe.de) that you quote with 1.234 participants is a good, big official one (despite neither of them being more "official" than the other).

Also, hint: they have in the meantime started to deport afghans, reinstated stricter border controls to austria and merkel came with her cheap burqa ban
 
He was locked up, but after he was released, control cannot go further than surveilance, as long as he does not commit a crime that you can prove. An in some instances, it might be more helpful to continue surveilance than to intervene even if a crime was commited. Regarding deportation: If the country a person comes from refuses to take that person, what do you suggest?
I suggest we do not let people walk around free in society that are not citizens and have proven themselves to be criminal, with even a prison sentence still waiting for them in their home country. That we do not let people walk around that are trying to buy guns and offer themselves for suicide attacks to extremist groups. And certainly to not stop surveillance on these people while that is going on.

If a person can not be deported, and they have a record of criminal offenses, multiple identities and fake passports, I think we should - depending on the situation - lock them up in the deportation center until the issues is resolved, keep them in an asylum center, or keep track of them with ankle monitors.

We should also pressure those unwilling governments to take these people back. We are not talking about economic powerhouses like China, the US, Japan or whatever here. We are talking about smaller countries that the EU could make a pretty simple case against to make sure they take responsibility of their citizens.

50% voted with "rather good policiy", 45% answered with "rather bad policy". Within those 45% you have 54% that demand "small corrections" in the policy.

Do the math and you'll figure out that those who oppose the policy in general aren't 65% of germany.
I'm referring to your posts above that leaves out the numbers and then points at a German source. Put some numbers in your posts instead, and it shows that almost half of the people aren't happy with the current way. And that is a large amount of people still. The country seems very much divided over the issue.
 

EloKa

Member
Interesting, the ARD-Deutschlandtrend (by inframap dimap) is a "small, private survey with 1000 people" but the ZDF-Politbarometer (by Forschungsgruppe.de) that you quote with 1.234 participants is a good, big official one (despite neither of them being more "official" than the other).

Also, hint: they have in the meantime started to deport afghans, reinstated stricter border controls to austria and merkel came with her cheap burqa ban

One is a corporation, the other is an association. If you don't care about the differences then simply go with the "old smaller survey vs new larger survey".

Also, hint: thats your personal belief and propably as true as all the other last claims that you made (and had to apologize for). Unfortunely this time there is no evidence for or against this claim.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
I'm referring to your posts above that leaves out the numbers and then points at a German source. Put some numbers in your posts instead, and it shows that almost half of the people aren't happy with the current way. And that is a large amount of people still. The country seems very much divided over the issue.

The funny thing is that both ARD and ZDF are the state broadcasters. The one I quoted is on assignment from ARD:
csm_DT1608_08_b898fd27dd.png

1003 people asked and negative approval was at a record high 65% in August

Meanwhile "his" survey from December, on assignment by the other state broadcaster ZDF is based on 1234 people but somehow "official" and must be much more correct *edit* or now appearantly one is an evil corporation purposefully pushing anti-refugee statistics.

In comparison the ZDF-Politbarometer("his source") from August(http://www.forschungsgruppe.de/Umfragen/Politbarometer/Archiv/Politbarometer_2016/August_2016/) showed 52% negative, 44% positive. So while the image overall might have become more positive from August until now (and now probably worse again after the attack and police failures), we have two state broadcaster sponsored polls showing different results.
 

Dalibor68

Banned
Officer is ok, doctors removed the bullet from his shoulder, he remained conscious the entire time

Thank god. But now I'm seeing news reports of "This is the policeman who killed the terrorist" (with a picture of him) on facebook - what the hell? Tabloid press painting a target on the policeman for clicks.
 

Fiend

Member
Thank god. But now I'm seeing news reports of "This is the policeman who killed the terrorist" (with a picture of him) on facebook - what the hell? Tabloid press painting a target on the policeman for clicks.

What did you expect, it's the tabloid press. They shit on common decency.
 
I see a lot of strong reactions in this thread but what if he was a mentally challenged person ? What if he was abused by other people into committing these crimes ?
Hell, what if he was innocent ? You guys should temper your ardor a notch I think.

This thread really reeks of violence and hatred, you guys are better than that.

I mean, seriously.

PS : and last but not least, the whole story is full of holes, why would you take it at face value AND react this strongly ?
 
I see a lot of strong reactions in this thread but what if he was a mentally challenged person ? What if he was abused by other people into committing these crimes ?
Hell, what if he was innocent ? You guys should temper your ardor a notch I think.

This thread really reeks of violence and hatred, you guys are better than that.

I mean, seriously.

PS : and last but not least, the whole story is full of holes, why would you take it at face value AND react this strongly ?
The guy pulled a gun at police officers during a random check in Italy. He was on the radar of intelligence agencies. He was convicted of armed robbery and still needed to do years in prison in Tunisia. He did 4 years in prison in Italy for multiple crimes. He has a fake passport and up to 8 different identities. His prints and ID are found in the truck.

But sure, he was abused by others into doing this. /s
 

Dalibor68

Banned
I see a lot of strong reactions in this thread but what if he was a mentally challenged person ? What if he was abused by other people into committing these crimes ?
Hell, what if he was innocent ? You guys should temper your ardor a notch I think.

This thread really reeks of violence and hatred, you guys are better than that.

I mean, seriously.

PS : and last but not least, the whole story is full of holes, why would you take it at face value AND react this strongly ?

Is this some gaf copypasta I'm not aware of?

(if not, see post above)
 

CTLance

Member
Gotta say, I'm happy that the good old fashioned "boots on the ground" police patrolling caught that fucker, and not some fancy shmancy New Tech Surveillance bullcrap.

Question is how he could waltz around in multiple train stations without anyone getting suspicious. Those usually tend to have a whole bunch of people, meaning many eyeballs that should have identified him.

Wish they had managed to catch him alive for the delicious secrets hidden away in his brain, but eh, better than letting him murder the police officers or letting him escape. An acceptable outcome.
 
Here we see how the open borders work. A terrorist can go from germany to italy with no trouble. Fantastic. Good to hear that the police got him.
Yes, let's screw up the lives of everyone living in Europe by reintroducing border controls and introducing mandatory visa checks of every passenger in every train because there is a terror attack sometimes.

You can go full state of emergency and even deploy the army everywhere, control everything and make the lifes of everyone unpleasant (not to mention the paranoia and discomfort it causes among the general population) like in France. Didn't prevent the attack in Niece. There is no way to stop every single lone wolf attack no matter how much you try. All it takes is one radical with a handgun (or heck, a baseball bat) or a car and you'll have at least several dead people.

And we don't even know how many potential terrorists DO get caught by investigations and surveillance before something happens ... there is a reason why this is the worst terror attack we had in Germany in ten years.

Of course you can crackdown massively and limit civil liberties like so many in this thread suggest. That only aids the terrorists in achieving what they want, curtailing our way of life, everyone getting affected by security measures resulting in distrust, fear etc. etc. France has been in a state of emergency for how many months now and has to deal with resurgent right wing nationalists and racist intolerance towards and attacks against the muslim minority which only escalates the situation more and more. That deals far more damage than the terrorist attacks themselves.

Of course you shouldn't stick your head in the sand, but full on paranoia, police and surveillance state is not the way to go either. That the suspect did get caught shows that the net of police control is really tight, in fact I can't remember one suspect of any of the notable terror attacks in Europe since and including the Paris attacks (and even Charlie Hebdo) actually escaping, those not dying during their respective attacks all ended up getting caught in street controls or their hideouts were found and raided by the police within a month or two. They all end up getting caught after crossing European borders one or two times at worst.

The fact that he left his documentation in the truck seems to have sparked some conspiracy theories, yeah
People still don't know this is a proven ISIS tactic especially if it serves to "show" that the terrorists arrived as refugees (even if they could get into Europe far easier, but making the population suspicious and paranoid of refugees is what ISIS wants, increases tensions and gives them more potential recruits and good propaganda material)? They already did that during the Paris attacks over a year ago.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
Even here on GAF people were claiming ISIS just claimed anything terrorism related.

in this case they claimed it before anyone even know who this guy was. The first guy was still being questioned and they never sought to correct that or provide any more information so it was rightfully met with skepticism. Taking ISIS propaganda at face value is a distraction.
 
Of course you can crackdown massively and limit civil liberties like so many in this thread suggest. That only aids the terrorists in achieving what they want, curtailing our way of life, everyone getting affected by security measures, distrust, fear etc. etc. France has been in a state of emergency for how many months now and has to deal with resurgent right wing nationalists and racist intolerance towards and attacks against the muslim minority which only escalates the situation more and more. That deals far more damage than the terrorist attacks themselves.
I have not seen many people here advocating for a massive crackdown on civil liberties. All I have seen is people saying there should be more checks on people coming in. It seems you are actually painting hyperbolic situations here that almost nobody wants.

And can you blame France for staying on alert? Multiple attacks with hundreds of deaths. If saying on alert is escalating the situation, then what should they do? Just ignore it and hope everything will be fine soon?
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
People still don't know this is a proven ISIS tactic especially if it serves to "show" that the terrorists arrived as refugees (even if they could get into the country far easier, but making the population suspicious and paranoid of refugees is what ISIS wants, gives them more potential recruits and good propaganda material)? They already did that during the Paris attacks over a year ago.

what? this is nonsense.
 
what? this is nonsense.
No, it isn't.
Police and terrorrism experts have been saying that even back then.

Or if you can't be bothered to check the sources:
Guardian said:
"A third red flag is the fact that the passport concerned was found in the first place. Analysts find it strange that a bomber would remember to bring his passport on a mission, particularly one who does not intend to return alive. “Why would a jihadist who expressly rejects all notions of modern citizenship take his passport on a suicide mission?” tweeted Charlie Winter, an analyst focusing on Islamist extremism. “So it gets found.”
Why do you think those terrorists are all running around carrying their passports and other ways of identifying them during their attacks when even semi-competent criminals aren't that stupid?
 

azyless

Member
I have not seen many people here advocating for a massive crackdown on civil liberties. All I have seen is people saying there should be more checks on people coming in. It seems you are actually painting hyperbolic situations here that almost nobody wants.

And can you blame France for staying on alert? Multiple attacks with hundreds of deaths. If saying on alert is escalating the situation, then what should they do? Just ignore it and hope everything will be fine soon?
There are quite a few advocating for border controls intra-EU though.
France isn't as bad as that post makes it sound though, even if I think the state of emergency is pretty much useless.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
No, it isn't.
Police and terrorrism experts have been saying that even back then.

Or if you can't be bothered to check the sources:

Why do you think those terrorists are all running around carrying their passports and other ways of identifying them during their attacks when even semi-competent criminals aren't that stupid?

seems a bit conspiratorial to me. They eventually figure out who these people are and where they came from. Leaving paperwork at a scene might work half a day while the media are still trying to piece it together but when it's all said and done it's not really important. What's important is who they actually are and how they were allowed to carry out their attacks.
 

Randam

Member
seems a bit conspiratorial to me. They eventually figure out who these people are and where they came from. Leaving paperwork at a scene might work half a day while the media are still trying to piece it together but when it's all said and done it's not really important. What's important is who they actually are and how they were allowed to carry out their attacks.
It would be way easier to just come here as a tourist instead on a boat over the Mediterranean Sea.
 
seems a bit conspiratorial to me. They eventually figure out who these people are and where they came from. Leaving paperwork at a scene might work half a day while the media are still trying to piece it together but when it's all said and done it's not really important. What's important is who they actually are and how they were allowed to carry out their attacks.
It increases the impact. Sure, they usually tend to be indentified after days or weeks, but that isn't even guaranteed if for example the terrorist gets blown to bits (e.g. suicide bomber). But if that information becomes public on the day or even one day after the terror attack when everyone is still trying to comprehend and reeling from what happened and when the emotional shock is still the strongest? Remember that terror attacks are ALL about creating chaos and panick and spreading fear. This is just one part of it. And as I said it results in even more suspicion and blame against refugees which is something that ISIS wants, with the refugee crisis being a powder pack that can blow up at any time if you stir the pot hard and long enough.

That's what the experts have been saying even back then after the Paris attacks. There is no conspiracy theory in that. Unless terrorists are now all carrying around passports all the time during their attacks and leaving them behind before they die or run away for fun and giggles.
 

Joni

Member
Bringing a passport is smart in that it would be real stupid to have a terrorist attack twarted because you got stopped in a routine check and failed to provide an ID. It also helps with your escape, because I doubt Tunesia would have let him in without a passport and he probably didn't feel like going back to his appartment.

in this case they claimed it before anyone even know who this guy was. The first guy was still being questioned and they never sought to correct that or provide any more information so it was rightfully met with skepticism. Taking ISIS propaganda at face value is a distraction.

Aside from the fact they haven't messed up yet in their claims.
 
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