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Truck plows into market in Berlin killing 12, injuring 48. Suspect shot dead in Italy
- Thread starter Ensirius
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MisterFalcon
Member
It's pretty clear by now there is no big difference between him dying and confessing everything, everyone he names would be released anyway.
A routine control doesn't happen in a vacuum. And they're not "random". Plus Europol is certainly communicating with the respective police agencies, regarding description etc.
Given neither of you know how to divide the arbitrary amount of credit, dismissing any europol involvement out of hand is as foolish as premature praise.
And for good reason. Having witnessed a police state in eastern germany with the Stasi monitoring every aspect of life taught people that privacy is pretty essential to lead a free life.
Locke Lamora
Member
Well done italian police. I'm glad that Amri can't conduct any further attacks.
So apparently he went from Berlin to Chambéry(France) to Turin and then to Milan by train.
Intelligence agencies probably very interested why he went to France first.
330 people in germany with alleged ties to IS or other terrorist organisations.
Intelligence agencies probably very interested why he went to France first.
330 people in germany with alleged ties to IS or other terrorist organisations.
ClosingADoor
Member
Switzerland is probably easier to check for people passing through, due to the geography (mountain passes, tunnels). Going through France isn't so strange.
Although they had intelligence earlier he was in contact with French extremists, so they might have helped him also.
Yes. The question is: Is that worth the security risk? and the European governments and people decided "Yes". Thank god.
Yet again people confuse "government" with "people". The Government under the CDU does regularly try to get more surveillance and security laws passed that cut into every citizens right to privacy and my definition of freedom. It's the german people that keep them from doing that (as best they can). Germans value their privacy and freedom more than most other things. There is absolutely no way Berlin especially, a politically pretty left town, would choose to plaster their town with cameras and surveillance because german citicens just don't want that. In 2008 more than 100.000 people protested against german surveillance laws in the vein of how the NSA operates in a rally called "Freedom instead of Fear".
Germany is in the very special position of being built out of both a failed state with extrem right-wing-politics and a failed state with extreme lift-wing-politics. Many people remember very well how in the DDR surveillance was used by the Stasi to oppress the people and keep them in check.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Not really, I'm simply witholding praise until their involvement is demonstrated - nothing more. That's a perfectly reasonable default position, and certainly not "as foolish" as saying well done to an organisation that was prima facie not involved in this.
You seem a tad defensive for some reason?
... worse! Sigmar Gabriel! for me it looks like SPD wants to make sure Merkel gets re-elected.
indeed it is most probable that merkel gets re-elected after spd's best candidate was pushed in the presidential role. but i fear increasing votes for the far right ...
Patrick S.
Banned
Yeah, that's very true. And of course, as with Internet and cellphone data etc., in the beginning there are assurances that of course that data will not be shared with anyone else, and as time passes everything IS shared with whoever wants it.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
Assumptions of course but they seem rather strong in France from what I can tell. Probably where most of their base is, aka directions, weapons, cash and planning.
There is no doubt people in france right now with actions and plans in place. That is what I was saying earlier, it's not a good thing at all and maybe the one good reasoning in him being took alive (not that he may have talked) hopefully they can get a hold on the root of most of this and start to stop it for good. The sooner the better but I don't see an end soon
It's also a public square and in Germany it's not legal to simply point a surveillance camera at a public place like that. People have a right to move in public without being recorded all the time.
A leftwing government which is ignoring the issues with immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries is exactly not what we need now. We need a government which names these issues and tries to tackle them, not a government which tries to find excuses by saying "these terrorists were manipulated and traumatised".
These people don't share our values or try to accept them. With soft policies they will simply laugh and play around with the police and people.
Sinfamy
Member
Pretty sure it should be the other way around.
You should have no expectation of privacy in a public setting.
PdotMichael
Banned
So we are already at the point where we are mixing refugees, immigrants and terrorists together.
we don't want shit like cctv. thats not on our politicians. we protesst and block trys frequently.
to the bolded: it isn't...
its hilarious that the agressor and isis dont get any blame from you.
German politicians need to be really careful about privacy in public or not.
If you do any radical changes supreme court will shoot it down faster than you can say terrorist.
Infact supreme court shot down the goverment multiple times for forcing ISPs to save browsing history etc.
After the Nazis and DDR privacy and data security is very strongly in the german constitution
We're at a point where users like you come in and make posts like this in order to shift the discussion and paint the others as nazis (at least I can't see what else the purpose of your post is). Of course it's a flowing mass, ie some terrorists came disguised as refugees, some migrants lived here and became radicalized etc. But nobody is generalizing whole groups as your strawman implies.
ClosingADoor
Member
The problem is, they overlap and there are no checks on who is who. People come here as a refugee, who are actually migrants, and who might be terrorists.
Someone from Tunisia is not a refugee. Someone from Syria is. If the government isn't even enforcing this difference, then you can expect the people to look at everyone with suspicion.
Sorry, but when did we vote to have open borders?.
I cant remember that I have been voting for or against that.
The government said yes, but thats not the same thing as the people.
The people voted for their government. That's how a representative democracy works.
Well you voted right? Did you vote for a pro EU party? If yes you voted for the EU and freedom of movement.
Welcome to democracy
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
A SPD + Green coalition is about as likely as a pure CDU coalition, i.e.: Impossible.
Steinmeier would not be a good candidate at all. How would he be able to form an SPD / Green / Left government? That's entirely impossible with his conservative profile and as the creative mind behind Hartz 4. Since SPD / Green / Left is the only alternative to a Merkel led coalition, Steinmeier would be a bad candidate. Both Gabriel and Martin Schulz are better candidates in that sense. Schulz is also more of a conservative guy, but he has not been so public about this, so he could still arrange a left coalition. Since Schulz is going to be foreign secretary, he will be in a great position to be the candidate, because this is a rather risk-free position that usually correlates with high popularity.
Well, we do have some, just not nearly as many as in the US. Just look at the C-Plakat group from Gummersbach near cologne. Anyway, these people are probably mainly voting for CDU or a party that does not even get represented in the parliament, so they really are not a huge problem at this time.
Well, a lot of people do like her, she's quite popular considering for how long she has already been chancellor. And CDU still is the most popular party in Germany, as it has been for more than ten years.
4 years of SPD / Green / Left is not some wild rollercoaster either. And it's probably clear from my text that I would also greatly prefer this.
Exactly, especcially as according to a poll from august 65% are not happy with Merkels refugee policy. And that's germany, now think of the less welcoming countries (as in basically everyone else other than Sweden). But it seems Merkels strategy of painting everything as "alternativlos" (no other alternatives existing) has worked with some at least.
http://de.reuters.com/article/deutschland-fl-chtlinge-umfrage-idDEKCN10G0BX
So you're telling me the german people voted for the conservative center-right party in 2013 because they wanted Merkel to sway to the left and instate an open border policy 2-3 years later after an unforseen stream of migrants and refugees?
He is talking about internal european borders but nice try blaming merkels refugee policy for it
Again: The german people disagree, not the government. People like Interior Minister De Maiziere would LOVE to have their own NSA.
So am I, what are you talking about? Deciding to leave the german border open / as uncontrolled as it was is part of the refugee policy.
Given that this is the most left coalition possible and a majority of germans disagrees with you, I will do too.
He's talking about Schengen.
Schengen existed way before merkel. Hell Merkel even suspended schengen but i guess that doesn't fit your narrative?
nvm, seems he was indeed talking about schengen itself instead of the open border policy, my mistake as I didn't follow the quotes back far enough
Ultramantaro1
Member
In exchange for privacy and less state surveillance, we must accept that not every crime will be prevented, or that not all criminals will be arrested. I can live with this. Better have a few tragedies than have the pendulum swing too far the other way into Big Brother territory.
He was talking about the terrorist moving from germany to italy with no trouble which has nothing to do with merkels refugee policy.
People voted for a candidate/party to represent their political interests for four years, so yes, that's exactly what the german people did.
Politicians do stuff that is in conflict with their voterbase all the time, so I don't see how this is anything special.
The only alternative is a more direct democracy where you can vote directly on specific issues. That system comes with a mountain of problems as well.
We are living in a representative democry though, so this is just something you got learn to deal with.
If you want your own opinion to be heared get into politics yourself or learn to deal with living in a representative democracy.
Im glad no money will be wasted on this cunts imprisonment, trial and upkeep. All round rotten human, good riddance, piece of shit.
Yes I voted on a party that for example wanted less taxes on fuel.
After they got elected, they raised the taxes for fuel, so what I voted for was not really the case in the long run.
But now its a bit offtopic.
A representative democracy does not mean the people who voted for said parties now automatically like and support every complete 180° change in policy that opposes what the party stood for / the sister party even still opposes it for. Thus see the poll above that says 65% are unhappy with her policy, proving the opposite is the case.
Something tells me there might be a middle ground between Orwell 1984 and simply accepting people getting massacred by terrorists every few months.
PdotMichael
Banned
Only that Anis Amri was well-known.
It isn't that there is a large uncontrollable grey mass of Muslims and there are no forms of control like people claim here.
Of course not - but you got to deal with it as that is how representative democracy works. It's a system of compromises.
I was replying to this argument:
You are trying to drag me into some argument I want no part of.
Well in regards to signing Schengen you are right of course, if you vote for a very pro-EU party you are going to get pro-EU policies
My point before was that you cannot assume people to agree with merkels refugee policy because they voted for her party in 2013, before any of this even started and before she veered to the left. But it seems that was not your arguement so my mistake then
That's not how it works in Germany. After two totalitarian surveillance governments (Nazis and Soviets) we'd rather risk the occasional terrorist slipping through (and it really is occasional, for every attack there have been dozens of reports that terrorists were caught before attacking) than the government having easy access to surveillance that could be used to outlaw or persecute what is normal today.
No, a single camera on a public place doesn't mean much but enough cameras and you get the ability to calculate movement profiles which tell you pretty much everything about a person.
In a representative democracy you decide that by voting for a party whose program matches your preferences. The parties that got the majority of the vote are ones that favor open borders. The closed border parties only get a small portion of the vote.
My point is, you will never agree to every single policy. That's why you have to learn to deal with compromises or get into politics yourself to represent your own opinion. The only fair alternative is to vote on EVERY issue via direct democracy but that has plenty problems of its own.
Yes, I know how representative democracy works. My only point was that one can not imply that the CDU voters of 2013 support her policy because they voted CDU in 2013 when none of this was foreseeable(to the average joe) and her policy goes against what you expect from center-right party. Thus the hypothetical statement "The people support her refugee policy because they voted for her in 2013!" is incorrect both logically and factually(see the polls).
If you are talking about the schengen contract then you are correct, otherwise not. "Open borders" alone is a very undifferentiated term here, as "open borders" in the terms of schengen means open internal borders on the basis of secured outer borders.
Don't let us kid ourselves, if we went around being more aggressive in our policing we would be called out for being police states and for massive racial profiling
Those who would be doing that however do currently not hold much water.
As usual, there is no need to go to extremes but find a compromise between security and freedom. That balance will shift back and forth depending on the times we live in.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
It is the most left coalition possible out of two coalitions that are possible at all in the current climate (assuming that CDU/CSU/SPD is still possible, of course). I don't know how the majority of Germans disagreeing with me has anything to do with you disagreeing with me - would you change your position if nothing else changed but just the public opinion on an SPD/Greens/Left coalition? Moreover, people don't vote coalitions, but parties, and currently we do have a situation where people voted in a way that an SPD / Green / Left coalition would be possible. It is true that this is not true for the current polls, but the election is still one year from now and the SPD has not even set their candidate.
Great news!
The highest poll has that coalition at 45% and frankly I don't see any way the SPD isn't going to lose even more than what polls are showing right now. Times of police scandals, terror attacks and other incidents are usually not the time where left pro-immigration parties come out to shine.
I think the statement of this not being a rollercoaster ride is simply wrong because as I said it is the most left coalition possible, a 3-party-coalition which always brings more instability and would lead to the most division possible (other than AfD getting 50%+). Parties known for statements like "Germany is going to change drastically and I can't wait" in regards to the mass migration (Katrin Göring-Eckardt) or basically calling everything that moves a nazi (Katja Kipping) vs the right (and you could bet your ass that Merkel would be gone and a more right-wing course installed in opposition) would be horrible times.
(Of course they do also have sane and good politicians like Sahra Wagenknecht or Winfried Kretschmann, but I have my doubts that they/their faction are in control over their overall parties)
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
This says nothing about what the reason for the disagreement is though. Many people also think that her turn for the right and her current policy of declaring safe states that are not acutally safe are at fault. Since there are still more than 20% of people who intend to vote for the greens and the lefts, who actually share this sentiment in the public, her politics in this regard might still be the most popular stance she could take.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
It is hard to say what happens in advance, because a popular candidate could definitely lead to some gains and SPD / Greens / Left is not that far off from having the possibility of forming a coalition that it can be ruled out. Of course, if numerous additional terror attacks happen from now until the election, a further upswing of AfD and similar xenophobe parties will make this impossible, but this specific attack is far enough away from the next election that I don't see it as something that makes a left coalition impossible.
It is the most left coalition that is currently feasible, but SPD-Left without the greens would probably be more left (and this is nothing that is likely to happen after the next election, but it would still in principle be a possible coalition that may happen in 21 years or so). I also don't see how this coalition would lead to more division than the CDU/CSU/FDP coalition before has. Or the SPD / Greens coalition before that. Of course, a CDU/CSU/SPD coalition is always the calmest option, because this is the most conservative, non-mover coalition you could form, but that does not make it a particularly great option either.
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