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Trump’s success shows many Christians don’t actually believe in God — just the flag

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It has long been presumed that America is more Christian than Europe. But it’s a myth. Of course, way more people go to church in America. And you can’t become president without holding up your floppy Bible and attending prayer breakfasts. But what the Donald Trump phenomenon reveals is what several intelligent Christian observers have been saying for some time: that a great many Americans don’t really believe in God. They just believe in America – which they often take to be the same thing. God was hacked by the American dream some time ago. “The evangelical church in America has, to a large extent, been co-opted by an American, religious version of the kingdom of the world. We have come to trust the power of the sword more than the power of the cross,” writes Gregory Boyd in The Myth of a Christian Nation.

On the whole, I defer to people’s self-description when it comes to religious belief. If people say they are Christian then that’s good enough for me – unless we are talking about school places or running for office. Then it’s worth a little more scepticism. So with Trump, who has done so much to peddle the ridiculous birther conspiracy about Obama’s nationality, there is a considerably less ridiculous re-birther question. “Anyone, whoever he is, who only wants to build walls and not bridges is not a Christian,” said the pope of Trump’s faith, “… if he says these things, this man is not a Christian.” Likewise, the head of the US Presbyterian church into which Trump was baptised said: “Donald Trump’s views are not in keeping with the policies adopted by our church.”

Not in keeping is putting it mildly. It’s not even that he tries and fails. “Why do I have to repent or ask for forgiveness, if I am not making mistakes?” he says. No, Trump doesn’t even begin to model Christ in his life. On the poor, on appealing to fear, on telling the truth, on sexual ethics, on (not) loving his enemies, on making greed his God, Trump models the anti-Christ.

But none of this makes much of a difference to Republican voters who have long been linked with evangelical Christianity. Trump waves his Bible around – though he is unable to name a single verse from it when asked – and talks a lot about making America great again and the threat from Islam. And that speaks volumes about what sort of faith it is that Republican believers actually believe in. Little wonder, as Professor Stanley Hauerwas says, that America doesn’t produce interesting atheists: they don’t have a God interesting enough to deny.

America itself has long been its own civil religion. Church and state may be separated, in theory. But if the state itself is deified, then the church has already capitulated. The 1833 amendment to the Massachusetts Constitution did away with church establishment. But it also insisted that “the public worship of God, and the instructions in piety, religion, and morality, promote the happiness and prosperity of a people, and the security of republican government.”

When the Pilgrim Fathers got in their little boats and sailed to the new world, they took with them a narrative that had begun to build in England, that the protestant English were actually the chosen people. America, then, was to be the new Israel. The pilgrims had landed safe on Cannan’s side, the promised land. The original 13 colonies in North America “were nothing other than a regeneration of the twelve tribes of Israel” as one American newspaper put it in 1864.

In other words, America became its own church and eventually its own god. Which is why the only real atheism in America is to call into question the American dream – a dream often indistinguishable from capitalism and the celebration of winners. This is the god Trump worships. He is its great high priest. And this is why evangelicals vote for him. But the God of Jesus Christ it is not. The death of God comes in many diverse and peculiar forms. In America, it is the flag and not the cross that takes pride of place in the sanctuary.​

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/03/tru...ns-dont-actually-believe-in-god-just-america/
 
Well duh.

You think these gun-toting fucks believe in "turn the other cheek" Jesus?

Sure if that Jesus is blowing the head off brown people.
 
inb4 no true scotsman

Christians in the US are scary. Not all of them of course, but overall they perception of faith and what actually is wrong and right is worrying. Christianity in the US has become some strange mix of patriotism, hypocrisy, fanaticism, politics and ideological extremism.
 

KevinRo

Member
Ah, yes, it's the time to fear monger by calling a presidential candidate the anti-christ again.

I seem to remember the Republicans saying the same about President Obama.

And the absurdity to say one nation or one person is more Christian than another is a paradox.
 

KonradLaw

Member
The pope is living in a city surrounded by big wall, built specifically to stop invaders though :)

Seriously though, while the dogma of pope being righ is absolute in catholic church, it's not really practiced by Catholics. And a lot of what pope says is openly rejected by most of devout american Christians. So it would be like saying that any creationist isn't really christian, since Vatican has recognized the truth of evolution many decades ago.

In a way it's positive thing. I mean, it can bring crappy ideas like creationism, but on a whole the ability of members of religion to not treat the dogmas as absolute is a good thing,
 

spekkeh

Banned
I never got the impression that the US was more Christian than Europe, more fanatical yes but not more Christian.
Meh, if the God is the flag or an actual God, most Europeans don't even invoke the name of God. Even politicians of Christian conservative parties tiptoe around saying they believe in God (more often using the more secular family values) because it's bad for business. That's very different from the US. If one wants to argue that the USA is not really Christian, then atheist would be a mild depiction of the state of religion in Europe.
 

Chuckie

Member
I never got the impression that the US was more Christian than Europe, more fanatical yes but not more Christian.

Well that really depends on which country you are talking about. Some Eastern and Southern European countries are just as or even more Christian than the States, however some countries in West Europe are definitely less Christian than the US. In the Netherlands for instance 17% of the people believe in a God, 25% don't. and the rest doesn't know.

inb4 no true scotsman

That is the first thing I actually thought about when reading the article.
 

Walpurgis

Banned
The nationalism in the U.S. has always been astonishing and the hypocrisy of Republicans even more. I suppose their god being 'merica is the only way any of it makes sense.
 
As someone who is just reading the Bible (I just hit Deuteronomium) I have to say that Trump's success doesn't show that.

Seriously, I dare anyone and everyone to read the Bible and then come here and say that god is good.
 

siddx

Magnificent Eager Mighty Brilliantly Erect Registereduser
Ah, yes, it's the time to fear monger by calling a presidential candidate the anti-christ again.

I seem to remember the Republicans saying the same about President Obama.

And the absurdity to say one nation or one person is more Christian than another is a paradox.

If that's the only thing you got out of the article you may need to read it again.
 

CLEEK

Member
To my non-American eyes, Trump is the perfect embodiment of how I view American Christians. Big on rhetoric, but utterly hypocritical and full of hate. The fact that US Christians always vote to the hard right back this up. It's not that the Republican Party was co-opted by the evangelical, but they always share similar beliefs and were natural bedfellows. It just took a while before they became synonymous .
 

AaronB

Member
I actually attended Greg Boyds church for some time while I was in that area, and still listen to his podcasts sometimes - he has a lot of good things to say. Associating a country with Christianity, or assuming that "God is with our side" is extremely dangerous to faith as well as policy.

However, that isn't necessarily what's going on with Trump. If you're implying that Christians should only vote for outspoken Christians, we should probably vote for Cruz or Rubio even though they're dangerously hawkish. Trump is certainly a departure from a faith "litmus test" for candidates - but is that really the stance Christians should take?

Trump represents a rebellion against an establishment that typically pretends to be Christian in order to gain votes, but is corrupt, warmongering, and dishonest to the core. You could just as easily interpret Trump's success as showing that people aren't falling for the "God = America = GOP" delusion that Boyd and others decry.
 

KonradLaw

Member
As someone who is just reading the Bible (I just hit Deuteronomium) I have to say that Trump's success doesn't show that.

Seriously, I dare anyone and everyone to read the Bible and then come here and say that god is good.
Yeah. Modern popculture has reduced God to a kind of all-year long Santa claus. But the Bible paints a picture of a God who can be very harsh.
 
First of all there is a big difference between the Old Testament and The New Testament.

The Old Testament is basically Jewish: an angry god that will spite you if you don't show obedience and that will reward you if you are loyal.

The New Testament is the message and teachings of Jesus.
It was a complete breakthrough from the Old Testament making Jesus a rebel against his own culture and education.
Remember that Jesus was crucified because the religious establishment at the time demanded it and saw him as a dangerous agitator (The Romans went along because they did not want to cause trouble).

The revolutionary message of Jesus is mostly about two things:
-respect and love for the weak
-contempt for material wealth and the materialistic outlook on life

By these standards, Donald Trump is anything but Christian as are a lot of Americans.
-Having contempt for "losers" is not Christian
-Flaunting your money and wealth is not Christian

Trump and many Americans should remember that Jesus said:
"It's easier for a camel to pass through a needle than for a rich man to enter the kindgom of God"
 
Yeah. Modern popculture has reduced God to a kind of all-year long Santa claus. But the Bible paints a picture of a God who can be very harsh.
Can be? Dude, we got people getting stoned to death for picking up wood on the Sabbat. We got whole nations being slaughtered just because they're in the way of the Isrealites. I mean, WHAT THE FUCK? Especially how women can believe in the Christian God is beyond me. They must not be aware how bad their gender is being treated in the Bible.
 
Can be? Dude, we got people getting stoned to death for picking up wood on the Sabbat. We got whole nations being slaughtered just because they're in the way of the Isrealites. I mean, WHAT THE FUCK? Especially how women can believe in the Christian God is beyond me. They must not be aware how bad their gender is being treated in the Bible.
That doesn't make sense. People can believe in something while knowing that they are terribly treated by it. I think the word you are looking for is worship not believe.
 

Brakke

Banned
I have always felt this:

America doesn’t produce interesting atheists: they don’t have a God interesting enough to deny.​

Such good quiet shade-throwing, too. Just slipping that in there.

inb4 no true scotsman

It better not show up, since it doesn't apply here and it's basically useless anyway.
 

atr0cious

Member
This was literally in my thoughts tonight at work. I was thinking about what kind of ad campaign could make the "christians" realize how full of shit they are, enough to make them flip and actually change. It has to be something with less words but full of punch. Like just Jim Caviezel saying republicans are not welcome in his house or some shit.

Can be? Dude, we got people getting stoned to death for picking up wood on the Sabbat. We got whole nations being slaughtered just because they're in the way of the Isrealites. I mean, WHAT THE FUCK? Especially how women can believe in the Christian God is beyond me. They must not be aware how bad their gender is being treated in the Bible.

Christians would say they don't care, and would focus on the new testament, which doesn't hold any of the beliefs they practice, but when the fuck did logic matter?
 

Nightbird

Member
Can be? Dude, we got people getting stoned to death for picking up wood on the Sabbat. We got whole nations being slaughtered just because they're in the way of the Isrealites. I mean, WHAT THE FUCK? Especially how women can believe in the Christian God is beyond me. They must not be aware how bad their gender is being treated in the Bible.

They were.
But after a certain time they started lying to themselves that God can't be that bad since nothing happens to them. They start lying to their kids that God is a very nice being, and they just have to behave, and thus starts the myth.
 

RevenWolf

Member
This was literally in my thoughts tonight at work. I was thinking about what kind of ad campaign could make the "christians" realize how full of shit they are, enough to make them flip and actually change. It has to be something with less words but full of punch. Like just Jim Caviezel saying republicans are not welcome in his house or some shit.

Literally nothing would work, some people called the pope and everyone catholic nothing but a cult worshipping the anti Christ because he had the gall to mention that the death penalty isn't too great.
 

atr0cious

Member
Literally nothing would work, some people called the pope and everyone catholic nothing but a cult worshipping the anti Christ because he had the gall to mention that the death penalty isn't too great.

Well techinically, the catholics are wrong according to the new testament. So no one who calls themself a Christian gives a shit what they think.
 

atr0cious

Member
I'm not sure what you mean tbh.

Catholics aren't technically Christians. Jesus died so that jews didn't have to pray to a priest anymore, and that anyone could have a relationship with god. This is signified by the curtain before the ark of the covenant ripping at the time of Jesus' death. The Catholics then put up a wall between you and god in the form of priests and the pope, along with other saints(idols), who you must pray to and for to get blessings and forgiveness. Why?
 

Aiii

So not worth it
American Patriotism, especially among Trump supporters, does seem to have a lot in common with religious fanaticism, I can't deny.
 

Chuckie

Member
Well techinically, the catholics are wrong according to the new testament. So no one who calls themself a Christian gives a shit what they think.

Beeldenstorm.jpg
 

AaronB

Member
One of Greg Boyd's major themes is "understanding a God that looks like Christ." Christ was the ultimate example of self-sacrificial love for all people. The nationalistic and militaristic Christians that the OP criticizing are missing that. The people doing drive-by shit-posts on Christians and Christianity are generally missing that as well.
 

patapuf

Member
I'm not sure i agree with the premise. Fundamentalist christan positions seem to be pretty similar everywhere, including america. The catholic church itself isn't always a particularily good "christian" instuttion either, even recently. Religious people being selective about the rules they hold important isn't a sign of waning belief - it's always been this way.

Trump himself might not believe in god much, but i don't think that's true for the evangelicals. Topics like abortion wouldn't be such a huge part of the political landscape if religion was secondary to them.

Trumps talking points and the fears he panders to aren't too dissimlar from those of the rising right in europe. Which would indicate that - as a whole - religious considerations aren't the first priority in this election and that Trump appeals way beyond religious people, rather than christians giving up on god.
 
That doesn't make sense. People can believe in something while knowing that they are terribly treated by it. I think the word you are looking for is worship not believe.
But that's the thing... They do not know. Like the other day I had an avid discussion with my workmate about what I read in the Bible. He gives me the usual "Well, that's not what it really means." talk when I loose it, pick up the Bible, find the verse that actively supports slavery for everyone not having your faith and read it to him. You can imagine how dumbfolded he looked.

And that is what upsets me a little bit. I don't know in what God people seem to believe, but the Christian God it sure ain't.
 

cdyhybrid

Member
Heh, this isn't new. Trump might be making it blatantly obvious, but anyone who's bothered to look has seen this phenomenon taking place for decades already.
 

onipex

Member
Most people that claim to be Christian are not really Christian. You can give yourself any label you want. I know atheist that think they're Catholic only because they were born into a Catholic family.

To my non-American eyes, Trump is the perfect embodiment of how I view American Christians. Big on rhetoric, but utterly hypocritical and full of hate. The fact that US Christians always vote to the hard right back this up. It's not that the Republican Party was co-opted by the evangelical, but they always share similar beliefs and were natural bedfellows. It just took a while before they became synonymous .

I'm always amazed that people believe that Christians always support that Republicans. Many Christians almost always vote Democrat.
 

mclem

Member
As someone who is just reading the Bible (I just hit Deuteronomium) I have to say that Trump's success doesn't show that.

Seriously, I dare anyone and everyone to read the Bible and then come here and say that god is good.

It's the difficult second album where that notion really took off. The Old Testament is fear-of-God stuff, the New is God Loves Everyone.
 

antonz

Member
The Trump Phenomenon really doesn't give a shit what you believe religion or politics wise. It' doesn't matter if he actually has positions you would normally potentially find as a problem.

It simply requires you to be willing to turn off your brain due to anger. Be it an anger at the system being rigged, racial anger or whatever. As long as you feel fucked over enough that you want change for the sake of change then Trump has bullshit he can sell you.
 

Alx

Member
I never got the impression that the US was more Christian than Europe, more fanatical yes but not more Christian.

Well regarding religion culture, there are huge differences among different European countries anyway, so it's hard to generalize.
A major objective difference though would be that religion seems more institutionalized in the US. Here in Europe we assume that some people are religious and others aren't, but you wouldn't really notice it in everyday life and especially not in politics. While in the US there seem to be constant references to God, in mottos, speeches, traditions etc. (do you guys really have a bible in all hotel rooms ?)
 
Ah, yes, it's the time to fear monger by calling a presidential candidate the anti-christ again.

I seem to remember the Republicans saying the same about President Obama.

And the absurdity to say one nation or one person is more Christian than another is a paradox.

Republicans called Obama the anti Christ because Obama is black and they are racist fucks.

This guy simply points out how stupid and racist these fucks actually are by showing the fact that the republican Base full of God fearing people are MORE likely to vote for someone who OPENLY behaves in ways no Christian ever should. 100x worse than what Obama (never) did to make them call him anti christ.

You can't call them the same thing.

Sorry.
 
It's the difficult second album where that notion really took off. The Old Testament is fear-of-God stuff, the New is God Loves Everyone.
Well, I sure can't wait until I actually read the New Testament and see if this is true. Real shame I have to drag myself through that horrible book first...
 

Maledict

Member
The pope is living in a city surrounded by big wall, built specifically to stop invaders though :)

Seriously though, while the dogma of pope being righ is absolute in catholic church, it's not really practiced by Catholics. And a lot of what pope says is openly rejected by most of devout american Christians. So it would be like saying that any creationist isn't really christian, since Vatican has recognized the truth of evolution many decades ago.

In a way it's positive thing. I mean, it can bring crappy ideas like creationism, but on a whole the ability of members of religion to not treat the dogmas as absolute is a good thing,

That's because the pope is not absolutely right in the catholic faith.

Papal Infallibility is used in a very specific type of decree, formally announced. It's not used very often at all (I think it's been decades actually). Normal speeches and comments by the Pope are just the words of a man, they are not considered infallible. As you say, huge amounts of Catholics ignore them, e.g. Contraception, abortion etc.
 
I still think USA is more a Christian country than most. American Christians seemed to be more vocal in contrast to uk where religion on average is downplayed.
 
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