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[Iksenpets]

Did not expect when I came into this thread for there to have been quite so much old-school anti-papism coming up?

Trump is basically the culmination of the weird American traditions of Christian nationalism and prosperity gospel. At some point the extra-biblical things those movements added to the religion, 'Murica and money, grew to overwhelm the parts that were there from the start.

 

[Apathy]

Didn't even read the whole article, but everyone should know the stereotypical US way of life is not compatible with Jesus.

1. Jesus doesn't like riches. You should give all your money away.
2. Jesus doesn't apprrove of violence even in self defence. The other cheek, yeah?
3. Jesus hangs out with sinners, whores, whoever. Doesn't judge, doesn't throw the first stone.

All these are the opposite of fundie Christians. It's like they never read the Bible in their life.

Also, if you want a good laugh, check out supply side Jesus

http://m.imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp

 

[Carcetti]

I don't think you quite understood his point

Of course it's an exaggeration but still, the point is you shouldn't waste your life seeking money.

 

[PeskyToaster]

This statement is both completely untrue and true. I would argue that this position has been held by many Christians since the time of Jesus. Many people argue for a Christ centric reading of the Bible, arguing that you start with modeling your life after Jesus' life and everything else is subject to that filter.

However, ever since Christianity became adopted as the main religion, it has been utilized as a destructive tool of oppression and justification for violence. People in power will always utilize methods, religion, technology, etc. to justify their nationalistic and egocentric desires. Christianity, whenever used to dominate and overpower, is rotten to the core. A mere shell of what the idea of "following the footsteps of Christ" was.

In other words, if a Christian seeks power and dominance, they are immediately "anti-Christ" in the most literal sense of the word. Despite what they claim to adhere to.

Yup, like I said before. A lot of the problems people have with the Catholic Church came about as it assumed the mantle of secular and religious authority.

 

[TheOctodad]

Want to know a secret too? I know many pastors who have tried to correct church attendees on their interpretations. I literally have seen multiple situations where a pastor will gently say, "No. That's not what this verse means, here's the greek/hebrew, here's the historical context, you can't use that to justify war/your hate for gays/etc."

Only to have the church member yell at them and say, "I don't care what all your book smarts says! God showed ME what it meant. That's just your opinion!"

Seriously. Happens all the time.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

I have always felt this:

America doesn’t produce interesting atheists: they don’t have a God interesting enough to deny.​

Such good quiet shade-throwing, too. Just slipping that in there.



It better not show up, since it doesn't apply here and it's basically useless anyway.

Except that's bullshit, of course. Atheism isn't a "denial" of gods; phrasing it this way is just an attempt to claim gods exist that are being denied, which is just another way of trying to force the claim to be accepted as true.

 

[entremet]

Want to know a secret too? I know many pastors who have tried to correct church attendees on their interpretations. I literally have seen multiple situations where a pastor will gently say, "No. That's not what this verse means, here's the greek/hebrew, here's the historical context, you can't use that to justify war/your hate for gays/etc."

Only to have the church member yell at them and say, "I don't care what all your book smarts says! God showed ME what it meant. That's just your opinion!"

Seriously. Happens all the time.

The concept of grace is seriously missing in many churches. Which is crazy since that's the gospel.

 

[Meier]

This article nails it. It's certainly in line with the way the "evangelicals" (who are by and large Trump supporters) in my family and Facebook life act.

 

[BeesEight]

This statement is both completely untrue and true. I would argue that this position has been held by many Christians since the time of Jesus. Many people argue for a Christ centric reading of the Bible, arguing that you start with modeling your life after Jesus' life and everything else is subject to that filter.

However, ever since Christianity became adopted as the main religion, it has been utilized as a destructive tool of oppression and justification for violence. People in power will always utilize methods, religion, technology, etc. to justify their nationalistic and egocentric desires. Christianity, whenever used to dominate and overpower, is rotten to the core. A mere shell of what the idea of "following the footsteps of Christ" was.

In other words, if a Christian seeks power and dominance, they are immediately "anti-Christ" in the most literal sense of the word. Despite what they claim to adhere to.

That's fair. I was talking more from a leadership perspective as the article was addressing Trump and his run for presidency. There have certainly been individuals that have strived for the author's conception of Christian living. Saint Anthony comes to mind. But it's not as though people like him have ever been in the majority of a populace let alone within its leadership.

I think you may be right that this conception of Christianity is antithecal to a governing body.

 

[cereal_killerxx]

Yeah, Trump definitely doesn't seem to be imitating or even attempting to imitate Christ.

 

[Lys Skygge]

As a Christian, I've felt nothing but disappointment in my fellow Christians during this election; it's truly showed everyone's true colors. There are church leaders that I used to look up to as a teen that'll preach on Facebook one minute about acceptance and peace, only to contradict what they're preaching with their politics. It's sad.

I hate how Republicans use God as a mascot.

 

[Garlador]

The concept of grace is seriously missing in many churches. Which is crazy since that's the gospel.

I'm lucky enough to have grown up in a grace church... so it was shocking to learn later on how few other churches actually believe or teach that.

On topic, I fully agree; Donald Trump is the embodiment of everything most "religious" Americans actually believe in: the power of money, celebrity, and influence. The good of greed, the saving power of the sword, in guns we trust. Don't love your neighbor: fear him. Hate him. Condemn him. Build barriers. Build walls.

As someone who, like the majority of American, professes to be a Christian, yet feels like one of few who knows that "Christian" means "to follow the examples of Christ", I'm very clearly aware that most Americans, regardless of their so-called profession, put their faith in the power of government and business.

Kindness is weakness. Mercy is weakness. Poverty is unhappiness. All sex is immoral. Acceptance is blasphemy. Peace-bringers aren't true men.

It's a nation where "the meek shall inherit the earth" is laughed at by those who believe only in survival of the fittest and only looking out for oneself.

And Donald Trump is the PERFECT candidate for those people.

 

[brochiller]

Great article. I especially like the point they made about capitalism and winning. That's all the Christian right really cares about. We always need more bombs and tanks so we can "win" all of these wars we fight. Because why not have a little war to add another one to the Win column?

 

[JohnsonUT]

Want to know a secret too? I know many pastors who have tried to correct church attendees on their interpretations. I literally have seen multiple situations where a pastor will gently say, "No. That's not what this verse means, here's the greek/hebrew, here's the historical context, you can't use that to justify war/your hate for gays/etc."

Only to have the church member yell at them and say, "I don't care what all your book smarts says! God showed ME what it meant. That's just your opinion!"

Seriously. Happens all the time.

"If your god never disagrees with (or challenges) you, you might just be worshiping an idealized version of yourself."

 

[vainglorious]

Yeah. NPR did a segment recently analyzing the voting behavior of Evangelicals this election cycle and they've proved themselves to be just like every other conservative Republican voter.

The Evangelical voting block was never the unique identity pundits wanted us to believe for years.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Ah, yes, it's the time to fear monger by calling a presidential candidate the anti-christ again.

I seem to remember the Republicans saying the same about President Obama.

And the absurdity to say one nation or one person is more Christian than another is a paradox.

Nobody's calling Trump the Antichrist.

And you can absolutely be more or less Christian than another person. I, for instance, am Jewish (agnostic), so I'm significantly less Christian than most.

 

[Abounder]

god = middle class jobs, and the American dream of doing better than ever before

In other words, god is dead/dying. No wonder Trump and Co. are getting so much excitement and support, he's trying to bring back jesus/jobs! Or as Billy said: it's the economy, stupid

 

[Lil'DigiOp]

Jesus is from the Middle East....


Why is he white?

#QuestionsofFaith

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I still think USA is more a Christian country than most. American Christians seemed to be more vocal in contrast to uk where religion on average is downplayed.

I believe in God. I don't feel the need to bring it up. Is that downplayed?

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Lmao. Dude I am not making threats. What the article is trying to point out is that if you're supporting trump and his platform, than there's definitely an odd thing going on there because a lot of his platform is opposed to Christian values. It's quite literally 'I like your Christ, but I don't know about your Christians'. Of course anybody can identify themselves as whatever they want, but there's a point where cognitive dissonance occurs and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask, is what you claim to be really what you believe?

I know what the article is trying to point out, but I dont think its successful because the Bible allows people to protect others against threats, because it doesnt say to help another at the peril of others (unless someone can tell me otherwise?). So supporting Trumps policies is still inline with bible teachings if those voters believe they will prevent certain threats to people they feel responsible for.
Again, Im not a Trump guy but for that Guardian article writer to get all high and mighty on people that he is politically opposed to, through the Bible, when I bet many (or even most) democrats support divorce, gay marriage and pre-marital sex (not Bible supported AFAIK) is pretty outrageous. Yes, the Guardian has a left bias, so you expect that, but its still pretty rude.

But even me risking my life to help someone is inherently risking my child's life. If I were to die, my child would be raised without a father. That would definitely hurt my child's well being. Financially, developmentally, emotionally. My child might be physically safe, but his well being has been hurt.

Whilst being (potentially) true, I think you are really reaching here. It doesnt convince me that the Bible expects an individual to risk the life of a second individual (without their consent) to help a third individual.

 

[JohnsonUT]

Whilst being (potentially) true, I think you are really reaching here. It doesnt convince me that the Bible expects an individual to risk the life of a second individual (without their consent) to help a third individual.

I am not reaching. If I die, my child's life is adversely affected. My child is not old enough to consent to the actions I take. By your argument, I should not engage in any of the "dangerous" calls to action from the bible (mission trip, serving the homeless, loving my enemies, etc)


Edit: Looking back back, it seems you don't actually have much of a Christian or bible background. That may explain why your argument is so focused on physical well-being and missing a lot of what the call to discipleship actually means.

 

[Air]

I know what the article is trying to point out, but I dont think its successful because the Bible allows people to protect others against threats, because it doesnt say to help another at the peril of others (unless someone can tell me otherwise?). So supporting Trumps policies is still inline with bible teachings if those voters believe they will prevent certain threats to people they feel responsible for.
Again, Im not a Trump guy but for that Guardian article writer to get all high and mighty on people that he is politically opposed to, through the Bible, when I bet many (or even most) democrats support divorce, gay marriage and pre-marital sex (not Bible supported AFAIK) is pretty outrageous. Yes, the Guardian has a left bias, so you expect that, but its still pretty rude.

Do you think trump is the only person whose policies on border control can help protect people? I know you said you're not a trump guy, I get that, but I'm sure you can understand how that's not really enough to counterbalance the rest of his positions. You're arguing essentially that because this one thing is kind of ok (border control, fine, his method for doing so, horrible) that there's no conflict in the rest of his platform. There is! Trumps supporters don't like him for his 'christian values', they like him because he is a vehicle in which peoples fears and hate flow through.

That is not a politician that coincides with Christian values. I mean maybe there's a little nuance there - a broken clock can be right, but again, generally, his positions conflict with many Christian ones. You've also said that you're not religious I think, so whether or not your it's your intention it seems like you're just trying to level the field so people feel comfortable about whatever things they want to support. The danger with that is like I said before - there's a point in which what you're claiming to be isn't matching up with how you are and people are free to criticize that. They always have been and it should be encouraged.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

I am not reaching. If I die, my child's life is adversely affected. My child is not old enough to consent to the actions I take. By your argument, I should not engage in any of the "dangerous" calls to action from the bible (mission trip, serving the homeless, loving my enemies, etc)

he he. No, you are reaching. I think you really have to consider the welfare of the good and/or innocent people you are responsible for, before taking real risks.
I will make up a worst case scenario. You are a single father and a prisoner that you know to be innocent, has escaped jail and has asked you to hide him in your house. Hiding spaces are limited, so there is a 50/50 chance he will be found, when the Romans come knocking. There is no time for him to go anywhere else, but If the guards discover you helping him they will kill you and your child too. Do you help the innocent escapee?
I dont think think the Bible gives a straight forward answer, because it can only give broad guidelines that people have to apply their own individual realities to. So, it would be up to that guy in that time and place to make what he believes is the right decision.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It's the same as anything: people are passionate defenders of whatever they think the Bible/Constitution/Law says.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Do you think trump is the only person whose policies on border control can help protect people? I know you said you're not a trump guy, I get that, but I'm sure you can understand how that's not really enough to counterbalance the rest of his positions. You're arguing essentially that because this one thing is kind of ok (border control, fine, his method for doing so, horrible) that there's no conflict in the rest of his platform. There is! Trumps supporters don't like him for his 'christian values', they like him because he is a vehicle in which peoples fears and hate flow through.

That is not a politician that coincides with Christian values. I mean maybe there's a little nuance there - a broken clock can be right, but again, generally, his positions conflict with many Christian ones. You've also said that you're not religious I think, so whether or not your it's your intention it seems like you're just trying to level the field so people feel comfortable about whatever things they want to support. The danger with that is like I said before - there's a point in which what you're claiming to be isn't matching up with how you are and people are free to criticize that. They always have been and it should be encouraged.

I live in Australia, so I dont see 24hr US news, but I know basic Trump policies (pro-gun, anti Islam and Mexican immigration). Thats what he gets coverage for out here and what I refer to, when I say people who have real fears (even if unfounded) about the consequences of not supporting those policies, arent going against the Bible (from what I know and have seen in this thread). I am unaware of his less famous ideas, so I cant say anything about them.
What I know of the bible and what I have learned in this thread is that the article writer is wrong. Thats all. I kinda regret posting here TBH, because even though I feel I am right, I also feel people here are getting upset.

 

[Air]

I live in Australia, so I dont see 24hr US news, but I know basic Trump policies (pro-gun, anti Islam and Mexican immigration). Thats what he gets coverage for out here and what I refer to, when I say people who have real fears (even if unfounded) about the consequences of not supporting those policies, arent going against the Bible (from what I know and have seen in this thread). I am unaware of his less famous ideas, so I cant say anything about them.
What I know of the bible and what I have learned in this thread is that the article writer is wrong. Thats all. I kinda regret posting here TBH, because even though I feel I am right, I also feel people here are getting upset.

I'm not getting upset at all, but what I and others are telling you is that you're more incorrect, or uninformed really is the better word I think, than you are correct in trying to parlay the positions. I see your position, but it lacks nuance because you're not getting all the news about trump from your sources, and you're not motivated religiously enough to explore the relationship between what trump is saying, what it means to be a Christian or have certain values and how that all plays together. So it's not that you're being a trouble maker or anything, but you're making claims without knowledge of what the broader picture is.

So even if you do feel right, which you're entitled to - there are others with a deeper depth of understanding about the situation and the beliefs involved and trying to inform you as to why your understanding of the situation may not be as accurate.

I don't get up in arms about these kind of things, so you don't have to worry about me attacking you personally or getting hostile. I've been on this board a decade, I've seen it all, lol.

 

[ModBot]

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