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[Nokterian]

 

[Mahonay]

Please come back George, we need you more than ever

 

[devilhawk]

Also, an "abortion" at 9 months is basically impossible. At that point, it's just birth. The baby just comes out and lives outside the mother

But this has empirically occurred at 21 weeks.

As a biologist I believe a scientifically justified line would be prudent. The date of earliest viability outside the womb seems to be such a line. Roe v Wade was essentially based on that, but neonatal medicine has improved since that case.

Of course I would hope any change in the law would also coincide with better access to legal abortions and the end of the fake regulations set up in many states to effectively prevent legal abortions and close down clinics.

 

[Bossun]

So you're in favor of unconditionally allowing women to terminate their pregnancy all the way up until birth?

So you are in favor of ruining life? I mean un unwanted birth can ruin a life, of the mother, the family, even the children.
So you are in favor of throwing away, abandoning babies, or giving them up to orphanage?
Probably to have a miserable life?

See, with your stupid leapt in logic we can assume anything from anyone no matter if it is valid point or not...

You just don't care about anyone once the baby is born?

 

[Mahonay]

But this has empirically occurred at 21 weeks.

As a biologist I believe a scientifically justified line would be prudent. The date of earliest viability outside the womb seems to be such a line. Roe v Wade was essentially based on that, but neonatal medicine has improved since that case.

Of course I would hope any change in the law would also coincide with better access to legal abortions and the end of the fake regulations set up in many states to effectively prevent legal abortions and close down clinics.

It won't. Especially not with Republicans with majority power right now.

 

[everyday math]

I'm kinda fine with it?
Rape, incest, mother life are covered, and 20 weeks give decent time for decision?

You’re fine with woman getting sent to jail if they have an abortion after 20 weeks?

 

[necrosis]

Ah yes, this seems like the most important bill to be passing in light of recent events,

if only these fetuses were armed

 

[crackhead_bob]

When talking about law it isn't considered rape until someone is proven guilty... soooo good luck getting that exception proven before you give birth

Yeah. I don't think a lot of people, including those of well intention, have put any meaningful thought into the reality behind this, because until they're actually raped and live through these potential roadblocks, they don't have any frame of reference to live off of. Such as the case of rape, many assume that the justice system works its magic and instantaneously, and it does -- when you yourself aren't affected by a crime and the fallout that happens as a result. And how long does it take to bring a sex assault case to court? You have that, and then provided you can prove you've been raped, how long in the pregnancy is that?

It's such garbage. And it's frustrating that not enough women seem to care. They become apoplectic when acquaintances criticize them on an outfit, but they don't seem to take heed when complete strangers want the law to monitor and dictate what happens in their most private, intimate moments.

 

[hey_monkey]

But this has empirically occurred at 21 weeks.

There is an incredible difference between severely premature birth and full term birth. Come on now.

 

[Unbounded]

If we remove religion from the picture, I have no idea why this should be legislation. Just foolish.

Because babies are cute. I'm pretty sure that's the only reason this discussion got anywhere near as far as it has.

 

[Keri]

But this has empirically occurred at 21 weeks.

As a biologist I believe a scientifically justified line would be prudent. The date of earliest viability outside the womb seems to be such a line. Roe v Wade was essentially based on that, but neonatal medicine has improved since that case.

Of course I would hope any change in the law would also coincide with better access to legal abortions and the end of the fake regulations set up in many states to effectively prevent legal abortions and close down clinics.

The more viability improves the more abortion becomes irrelevant, because the child can be born and put up for adoption. As viability improves the pregnancy can be terminated, without preventing the child from surviving. So, in the case of a healthy pregnancy, viability does not require regulation of abortion. It would just be an early birth.

Although, in the case of birth defects or medical conditions (which realistically are the only scenarios where someone would seek to end a pregnancy so late), it isn't so clear - the baby could be technically viable with significant intervention, but still only suffer a painful existence or have little to no quality of life...

 

[MisterShine]

This would put us on par with most European countries, it's hardly that extreme.

That said, I don't support this. Anyone can do what they want with their body's resources, even if they gave permission beforehand.

You're fine with woman getting sent to jail if they have an abortion after 20 weeks?

The article says that the bill criminalizes performing an abortion or attempting to perform one. The doctors are the ones in trouble here.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Don't give pro-lifers an inch.

 

[sandy1297]

I was going to say this myself. 20 weeks is one of the biggest days in a pregnancy, testing wise.

We didn't even tell our extended family about our first child until after this date and the 20 week scan results were clear.

Same case with me and my wife, and when the scan detect some abnormality (thick back neck) it was like the end of the world. We decided to do another test (amniocentesis) and the following days was the longest in our lifetime. But when the result came back and everything is normal (she just a chubby baby) it felt like a heavy boulder was lifted from our shoulder.

Cant imagine what it will feel if there's another presure from the goverment

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

Are they going to make clinics more accessible?
This legislation is fucking awful. The least they could do is open more clinics.

I know they won't, but still.

For some context he Netherlands, widely considered one of the most sexually free countries in the world, has free abortion on demand until 21 weeks, (24 for grave disease or malformation) provided freely by the public healthcare system. Note that the limit is pretty much the same, and it is considered that after that period if the mother didn't go with the procuedure is because she wanted to keep it or give it in adoption.
Of course, this is an entirely different context and misses the practical limitations of abortion provision in the US since abortion is readily available in the Netherlands, there isn't a huge stigma or coercion around it, it's free, and the healthcare system provides assistance, information and support for whatever the patient chooses. A woman doesn't have to travel the country or come up with the money or (For the most part) avoid her parents, and if she chooses to keep it there are decent adoption services.

Still, I think this proves the necessity of the US creating a socialized healthcare system (With the proper information and logistics, late term abortions would be unnecessary), and that in a system where the logistics of abortion worked Republicans would fight tooth and nail for much stricter restrictions.

Disclaimer: I'm a dude, correct or ignore this wrong.

 

[adamsappel]

I don't like late(ish) abortions personally, if the baby is healthy. Slippery slope.

But it still shouldn't be illegal for a number of justifiable reasons.

Why do you think women have late-term abortions? It sounds like you think they sometimes decide they didn't actually want a girl and have an abortion instead.

Scientifically, I believe the answer should be banned after 21 weeks (the current earliest birth is 21 weeks not 24) except in the cases of major birth defects, or health complications in mother or child. The 21 weeks timeline will become more relevant as neonatal medicine continues to progress.

Who decides what birth defect is "major" enough? Down Syndrome? Anencephaly?

Please come back George, we need you more than ever

Towards the end, I thought George had become too cantankerous and angry. I didn't realize he was being prescient.

 

[Not]

Well, this is what America wanted. For women to never be equal citizens.

 

[vordhosbn]

I'm not from the US but I didn't even know you can have abortions at 20 weeks without it being health complications.

 

[shiyrley]

How can the government fill their mouths with "pro-life" shit when they don't even support free healthcare?

"Please have the baby! It's a life!!! I'm retarded!!!! Have the baby!!!!!!"
*1 year after birth*
"Oh your 1 year old has cancer? haha fuck you hope you got money lol"

 

[Angelus Errare]

Now let women decide if viagra and other things should be covered by insurance and watch the cognitive dissonace kick in.

 

[Polari]

This isn't that radical. Of the 49 countries without restriction on abortion as to reason, 44 of them had gestational limits. Singapore being the only one of these beyond 18 weeks. Countries with less than that include Norway, Sweden, Finland, France and Germany (keeping in mind that countries like the UK, Australia and New Zealand restrict abortion so aren't included).

Unlike something like gun control, the US is the outlier here.

 

[hey_monkey]

The countries we're comparing to here have vastly different healthcare systems for the most part, and that makes a difference.

 

[segasonic]

Are you a woman? If not, this is not something you have say in.

That‘s not really how democracy works...

 

[TBiddy]

In Denmark it's not allowed to get an abortion after 12 weeks, unless there's physical or medical reasons for it. It will also be allowed if the mother is having mental issues or is incapable of taking care of the child.

We have a scan at 12 weeks (checking for any chromosome-related illness) and another one at week 18-20, which is checking for physical issues (heart etc.).

If the child is severely handicapped, you can get an abortion after that scan, but if it's "only" missing a part of the arm, you'll be rejected access to an abortion.. in Denmark, at least. And that's fine with me.

 

[massoluk]

You’re fine with woman getting sent to jail if they have an abortion after 20 weeks?

I'm not, I posted so later when someone enlightened me on the implication

 

[segasonic]

In Denmark it's not allowed to get an abortion after 12 weeks, unless there's physical or medical reasons for it. It will also be allowed if the mother is having mental issues or is incapable of taking care of the child.

We have a scan at 12 weeks (checking for any chromosome-related illness) and another one at week 18-20, which is checking for physical issues (heart etc.).

If the child is severely handicapped, you can get an abortion after that scan, but if it's "only" missing a part of the arm, you'll be rejected access to an abortion.. in Denmark, at least. And that's fine with me.

That‘s very similar to legislation here in Germany.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Oh, ok
Then I'm not fine with it

Not usually the type to pile on, but if you don't even have a basic understanding of what pregnancy entails around 20 weeks, maybe just maybe your opinion is completely useless and unnecessary?
Same goes for all Republicans in Congress.

 

[Mr Swine]

In Denmark it's not allowed to get an abortion after 12 weeks, unless there's physical or medical reasons for it. It will also be allowed if the mother is having mental issues or is incapable of taking care of the child.

We have a scan at 12 weeks (checking for any chromosome-related illness) and another one at week 18-20, which is checking for physical issues (heart etc.).

If the child is severely handicapped, you can get an abortion after that scan, but if it's "only" missing a part of the arm, you'll be rejected access to an abortion.. in Denmark, at least. And that's fine with me.

I don’t know how it is in Sweden but it must be similar. But can a woman get an abortion if she is in economical troubles? Or does he government set up the baby for adoption?

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I don't know how it is in Sweden but it must be similar. But can a woman get an abortion if she is in economical troubles? Or does he government set up the baby for adoption?

I was about to post this, but I am pretty sure that economic hardships are taken into consideration in most countries where there are limitations. That is definitely how it works here in Japan.

 

[Monocle]

Religious fundies and this garbage administration can both fuck off. I can't wait for the pendulum to swing the other way so we can demolish shitty regressive policies and cast out from positions of influence as many irrational morons as possible.

 

[TBiddy]

I don’t know how it is in Sweden but it must be similar. But can a woman get an abortion if she is in economical troubles? Or does he government set up the baby for adoption?

Generally speaking, no. You'd need to have a very good excuse to get an abortion post 12 weeks. The government only "force adopts" childs that are in danger of being mistreated.

 

[cameron]

It's dumb that people are even entertaining the ban. This should be a conversation between a woman and her non-religious-fundie doctor.

Canada doesn't have a problem of women females not knowing their place by having late term abortions on demand for the lulz. I wonder how that immoral country does it.

Are they going to make clinics more accessible?
This legislation is fucking awful. The least they could do is open more clinics.

I know they won't, but still.

From March, AP: Get by without Planned Parenthood? One Texas effort stumbles

In pushing a replacement for the Affordable Care Act that cuts off funds for Planned Parenthood, Republicans are out to reassure women who rely on the major health care organization that other clinics will step up to provide their low-cost breast exams, contraception and cancer screenings.

Texas is already trying to prove it. But one big bet is quietly sputtering, and in danger of teaching the opposite lesson conservatives are after.

Last summer, Texas gave $1.6 million to an anti-abortion organization called the Heidi Group to help strengthen small clinics that specialize in women’s health like Planned Parenthood but don’t offer abortions. The goal was to help the clinics boost their patient rolls and show there would be no gap in services if the nation’s largest abortion provider had to scale back.

The effort offered a model other conservative states could follow if Republicans make their long-sought dream of defunding Planned Parenthood a reality under President Donald Trump. Several states are already moving to curtail the organization’s funds.

But eight months later, the Heidi Group has little to show for its work. An Associated Press review found the nonprofit has done little of the outreach it promised, such as helping clinics promote their services on Facebook, or airing public service announcements. It hasn’t made good on plans to establish a 1-800 number to help women find providers or ensure that all clinics have updated websites.

Neither the group nor state officials would say how many patients have been served so far by the private clinics.

The Heidi Group is led by Carol Everett, a prominent anti-abortion activist and influential conservative force in the Texas Legislature.

Months later resulting in, Houston Press: Texas Anti-Abortion Family Planning Provider to Lose Millions in State Funds

The Heidi Group's goal was to subcontract with 20 smaller providers across the state who were supposed to increase low-income women and men's access to these health services. In January, the Heidi Group also received $5.1 million to go toward family planning services for this purpose.

But now, the Texas Health and Human Services Commission is rescinding $4.1 million of that funding after the Heidi Group did not meet its own goals, as the Associated Press first reported.

"They didn't reach their own targets during this first year of ramp up," HHSC spokeswoman Carrie Williams told the Houston Press in an email. "We're adjusting the amounts to make sure we're maximizing services for women."

The Heidi Group projected to serve nearly 18,000 low-income women over the year but Williams said the new goal is roughly 3,500. She declined to say how many women have actually been helped by the Heidi Group and its subcontractors thus far, saying the data is incomplete and claims are still being processed.

God bless them for pretending to care, I guess.

 

[Assanova]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

This would put us on par with most European countries, it's hardly that extreme.

That said, I don't support this. Anyone can do what they want with their body's resources, even if they gave permission beforehand.



The article says that the bill criminalizes performing an abortion or attempting to perform one. The doctors are the ones in trouble here.

European countries don't really throw women in jail for this do they?

 

[Nillansan]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I'm not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It's practially alive and kicking by then and if you've seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn't think that it's anything other than murder at that point.

No, I am sure you're the only one in this entire thread.

 

[Jombie]

America: you better hope you're a fetus.

 

[Drek]

20 weeks is a fucked up, clearly targeted date. 24 or 25 weeks, the point at which a fetus/unborn child is entirely viable via incubator and nutritional sustenance should be the line because at that point it is clearly a viable human life.

At the same time the exceptions for rape, incest, or threat to life should be something entirely between a woman and her doctor with, at the very most, any record having all personal identification redacted.

And if the GOP really cared about preventing abortions we'd roll out meaningful family planning tools to all people. Free birth control medications, free morning after pills available over the counter at every pharmacy with the bill going back to the federal government, free prenatal vitamins (at least a basic agreed upon form) via the same setup.

We should also remove the process of drafting and proposing bills regarding this from congress. We're well past the time of needing a legitimate medical elect format where a panel of medical professionals, chosen by medical professionals, draft and propose regulation that congress then acts upon.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I'm kinda fine with it?
Rape, incest, mother life are covered, and 20 weeks give decent time for decision?

You are fine with it until you are in the situation where you or your partner might need one. Then you will be singing a much different tune.

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

I'm a father so yes. I don't see why we need legislation on this. Let the parents and their doctor decide what is best. It's completely unnecessary. I don't give a fuck what the couple down the street does with their pregnancy.

 

[TBiddy]

I'm a father so yes. I don't see why we need legislation on this. Let the parents and their doctor decide what is best. It's completely unnecessary. I don't give a fuck what the couple down the street does with their pregnancy.

Would you be fine with people aborting after ie. 36 weeks?

 

[Camwi]

Some dudes were fine with this in this thread until a woman showed up with facts. Now for lawmakers they might not even have women on the board to point this out, so ignorant men will go through with it.

Can we stop pretending it's just ignorant men pushing this through? I know the majority of congress is male, but there are many women Republicans who would vote for this shit, too.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Would you be fine with people aborting after ie. 36 weeks?

At that point, you'd just deliver and give the baby up. It's not the same at all.

 

[Platy]

I would be fine with a 20 week abortion even if was because a person does not want to carry anymore because they are bored, but the real reasons people do abortions at this stage makes my blood boil reading this news

 

[TechnicPuppet]

What's the current law. In the UK it's 24 weeks with exceptions after that for severe disabilities, risk to mother etc.

That to me is fine.

 

[ahoyhoy]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

Ever seen sperm under a microscope? They do a lot of movement and flailing too.

Too bad they do much to produce life without a host to fertilize/carry it for 9 months

 

[Chichikov]

Would you be fine with people aborting after ie. 36 weeks?

You honestly think people just wait until week 36 and then like, nah, changed my mind, I'm gonna abort my baby now?
Abortions that late in the pregnancy are always tales of terrible tragedy, where families and doctors have to make awfully hard decisions. Those are complex and grim situations that you really can't legislate, especially not with something as broad as week based ban.

I understand that some people want to ban all abortions, and if you believe that life begin at conception and that fetuses should enjoy all of the same rights and protections that you and have then yeah, it even follows. But such advocates should argue that point rather than drag people who go through shit pretty traumatic shit through this garbage.

Because you may not think about it, but at the end of all of this are women who are forced to carry dead babies to term.

Oh and by the way, the most effective way to reduce the number of late term abortions is providing access to early term abortions. But of course, people who are really worried about late term abortions will never argue for that.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Would you be fine with people aborting after ie. 36 weeks?

It's not something that happens on an elective nature so that's not a credible argument. Unless a woman has serious mental issues, having any sort of abortion at 36 weeks is an incredibly traumatic experience for them.

 

[Kamaji]

Anyone know the criteria for abortion in the case of rape? Does the rape have to be proven in court? Cuz if so that's a fucking bad joke.

I've always thought about how these restrictions are actually handled. Is there a legal process? Are the courts effective enough to give a verdict before abortion becomes impractical or impossible?

I mean obviously the most reasonable is to let the pregnant mother decide over her own body and not question her judgement. As stated before the abortions that happen this late tend to be made either on what doctors say about the baby's health/vitality or based on unforseen events that make the mother unable to support the child. I don't see women being pregnant for 5 months already "for the lulz"

 

[aeolist]

So you can be forced to have a child with serious health issues this is cruel for parents and child.

or be forced to carry a fetus that is 100% certain to die immediately after delivery.

not to mention that even with "health of the mother" exceptions adding legal penalties for abortion doctors will always make them more cautious which will always lead to more cases of women suffering when they shouldn't. see ireland for examples.

 

[Turin]

We can't cut his rant short now. Here's the rest of it.

 

[boiled goose]

I'm kinda fine with it?
Rape, incest, mother life are covered, and 20 weeks give decent time for decision?

You're ok to force a woman to remain pregnant against her will?

Disgusting.

If rape and incest make it ok to abort, then it's clearly not "murder". It's about punishing women for having sex.