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[Platy]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

Have you seen an adult men ?

If that adult man needed a transplant to live and the only person available didn't want to help because they own their body and don't want a doctor to touch it because hospitals smells funny it would be legal to let the adult man die.

 

[boiled goose]

Would you be fine with people aborting after ie. 36 weeks?

The thing is You can't force women to remain pregnant against will. At that point induced labor is easiest way to do that.

Society has decided to take care of unwanted babies. So baby can be given up.

 

[boiled goose]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

How many kidneys or blood have you had forcibly removed to keep actual thinking adult humans alive?

Humans with families, lives, thoughts, memories, goals, etc.

Oh right you don't give enough of a fuck about that but want to use FORCE to keep women pregnant against their will.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Since I feel like many on GAF may not know this, 20 weeks is when most pregnant women have their anatomy scan, which is a detailed ultrasound that looks for signs of birth defects. So, this bill would prevent women from terminating pregnancies where birth defects are detected, almost completely.

Yikes

And we were almost at middle ground with these proposals

Hard NO

 

[Aiustis]

To be fair, most of them (like 95%) occur before 20 weeks.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm kinda fine with it?
Rape, incest, mother life are covered, and 20 weeks give decent time for decision?

Yeah let's just give the GOP a inch.... I'm sure we'll get to keep the mile

 

[Vincent Grayson]

While I disagree with it on a fundamental level, I'd be much less averse to constraints like this if it weren't *ALSO* true that many states have done their damnedest to close clinics and scare doctors away such that getting an abortion done in a timely manner is very difficult (especially for people of lesser means).

 

[boiled goose]

To be fair, most of them (like 95%) occur before 20 weeks.

Irrelevant.

Our laws need a rational standard. Not emotional religious ones.

 

[excelsiorlef]

But this has empirically occurred at 21 weeks.

As a biologist I believe a scientifically justified line would be prudent. The date of earliest viability outside the womb seems to be such a line. Roe v Wade was essentially based on that, but neonatal medicine has improved since that case.

Of course I would hope any change in the law would also coincide with better access to legal abortions and the end of the fake regulations set up in many states to effectively prevent legal abortions and close down clinics.

It won't.

And let's define viability here... do you mean earliest that any might survive or earliest that most would survive?

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

Until the United States of America has a viable social safety net for its citizens and does something about gun crime (I say this as a gun owner myself), I'm am against anyone trying to take any sort of high ground in relation to caring about life. This topic should be back-burnered until other issues are straightened out.

 

[TBiddy]

You honestly think people just wait until week 36 and then like, nah, changed my mind, I'm gonna abort my baby now?
Abortions that late in the pregnancy are always tales of terrible tragedy, where families and doctors have to make awfully hard decisions. Those are complex and grim situations that you really can't legislate, especially not with something as broad as week based ban.

I understand that some people want to ban all abortions, and if you believe that life begin at conception and that fetuses should enjoy all of the same rights and protections that you and have then yeah, it even follows. But such advocates should argue that point rather than drag people who go through shit pretty traumatic shit through this garbage.

Because you may not think about it, but at the end of all of this are women who are forced to carry dead babies to term.

Oh and by the way, the most effective way to reduce the number of late term abortions is providing access to early term abortions. But of course, people who are really worried about late term abortions will never argue for that.

Hopefully no one waits till week 36 and then changes their mind. I was curious as to where his limit was. Is it week 36, week 30, week 25? If the argument is "let the parents and the doctor decide", it's certainly possible that there will be very late abortions.

I'm all for abortion. I haven't yet decided for how long it should be allowed, but I think that up to around the point where the child can survive (week 24, give or take), it should be allowed, no questions asked. After that, it should be avoided, unless there are incredibly good reasons for it. Fortunately it's extremely rare.

It's not something that happens on an elective nature so that's not a credible argument. Unless a woman has serious mental issues, having any sort of abortion at 36 weeks is an incredibly traumatic experience for them.

I agree. But where do you set the limit then? You argued that it should be up to the parents and the doctor. Would you be OK with week 30 then? Week 32? Certainly you have an opinion here.

 

[Skellig Gra]

I agree. But where do you set the limit then? You argued that it should be up to the parents and the doctor. Would you be OK with week 30 then? Week 32? Certainly you have an opinion here.

My opinion is irrelevant because I'm not a doctor or the parents. Every limit is arbitrary. There is too much nuance to make any meaningful law about this.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This isn't that radical. Of the 49 countries without restriction on abortion as to reason, 44 of them had gestational limits. Singapore being the only one of these beyond 18 weeks. Countries with less than that include Norway, Sweden, Finland, France and Germany (keeping in mind that countries like the UK, Australia and New Zealand restrict abortion so aren't included).

Unlike something like gun control, the US is the outlier here.

And then there's Canada where the rule on abortion is that there is no rule. None, rien, pas une seule.

Hopefully no one waits till week 36 and then changes their mind. I was curious as to where his limit was. Is it week 36, week 30, week 25? If the argument is "let the parents and the doctor decide", it's certainly possible that there will be very late abortions.

When?

When it is no longer in a parasite/host relationship...

And we can maybe talk restrictions when childbirth is less dangerous than an abortion.

 

[TBiddy]

My opinion is irrelevant because I'm not a doctor or the parents. Every limit is arbitrary. There is too much nuance to make any meaningful law about this.

So you don't have an opinion, or do you prefer not to share it?

 

[benicillin]

With all the random dudes in here lazily throwing around arbitrary and uninformed restrictions around an issue they’ll never face you’ll pardon me for thinking I was reading the minutes from a session of the Republican Congress.

 

[Legend of Aims]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

This is my stance as well. You can have your laws but that is murder to me. (I have a child and expecting another).

 

[Anarion07]

That's actually more time than in Germany. It's under 20 weeks here, I think 14 or something.

 

[Master Yoshi]

Has anyone against this actually seen what a baby looks like at week 20? I’m not talking about pictures on the internet, but actually been to an ultra sound at 20 weeks. It’s practially alive and kicking by then and if you’ve seen it, then there is no way that you wouldn’t think that it’s anything other than murder at that point.

I saw my child at like 15 or 16 weeks last month and he or she was actually jumping around with their legs in there. I've never seen a baby so active on an ultrasound.

 

[jett]

For some reason I thought this was already in place. Can you really abort at any time during the pregnancy America?

 

[TBiddy]

I saw my child at like 15 or 16 weeks last month and he can or she was actually jumping around with their legs in there. I've never seen a baby so active on an ultrasound.

It's an incredible feeling to see your child like that. Congratulations!

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I'm kinda fine with it?
Rape, incest, mother life are covered, and 20 weeks give decent time for decision?

Ultimately it should be up to whoever is having the damn baby. Not any of us. Especially not Trump or Congress.

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

Have they said why the random number? Does it magically become a person at 20 weeks?

Ultimately it should be up to whoever is having the damn baby. Not any of us. Especially not Trump or Congress.

But how will I be able to push my personal beliefs on other people???

 

[kinggroin]

Always about the ban of abortions, never about working towards eliminating the contributing causes for them. Oh well. Zero progress.

 

[Skellig Gra]

So you don't have an opinion, or do you prefer not to share it?

I'm saying my opinion doesn't matter because I should not have a say on any child's life other than my own. Abortion is horrible but what's even more horrible is raising and unwanted and unloved child.

 

[mackattk]

Yeah most families aren't able to care after a special needs child. Some of these children will never get surpass the intelligence of a two year old. Basically requires 24/7 care and are very very difficult to look after and control. I don't know how many of you have witnessed a 16 yo man like this that throws a tantrum. It is a dangerous situation where he can harm himself or others around him.

Those that are considering abortion after 20 weeks has a damn good reason for it, and not just because they don't want it anymore.

 

[Assanova]

I saw my child at like 15 or 16 weeks last month and he or she was actually jumping around with their legs in there. I've never seen a baby so active on an ultrasound.

Yep. Seeing that put abortion into a whole new perspective for me. That is a human and not just “sperm” swimming around, like some are trying to make it out to be. They use the excuse “but my body”. It’s disgusting to see people trying to justify murder under the guise of “what if the mother might die”, knowing that this isn’t always going to be the case.

It’s my personal opinion, but people who try to justify murdering a baby that far into a pregnancy are no different than people who try to justify murdering children. I’m sorry, but at that point in the pregnancy, you are responsible for that child. If you don’t want it, then give t up for adoption.

 

[theaface]

The irony of claiming to be so "pro life" at the same time as being vehemently pro guns will never cease to amaze me.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Any rules about this kind of thing should include a provision about the viability of the baby.

If a doctor's suggestion is that the baby won't live once it's born of course then the parents should be able to choose.

But if it's something that can be treated or isnt immediately life threatening then no, they really shouldn't be able to abort.

 

[TBiddy]

I'm saying my opinion doesn't matter because I should not have a say on any child's life other than my own. Abortion is horrible but what's even more horrible is raising and unwanted and unloved child.

That's a given, and something most people probably/hopefully agree on. But I'm genuinely curious as to what your opinion is. You said you don't give a shit about what the couple down the street do with their pregnancy. What if they decide, along with their doctor, to abort in week 30? What would you think?

 

[Occam]

Could we go with a 20-week Trump ban instead? And then if it works, extend it by another 148 weeks?

 

[Lanrutcon]

If you don’t want it, then give t up for adoption.

Yup, go make it someone else's problem. Drop that baby like a diseased rock and run before your conscience catches on.

 

[ChainedMaster]

I don't see why pro-choicers hate pro-lifers that much and call them anti-women. That's disingenuous. I understand their position that they want to protect human life and that a fetus is a baby in their eyes. I disagree with the but I don't think the position is inherently anti-women.

 

[Master Yoshi]

Yep. Seeing that put abortion into a whole new perspective for me. That is a human and not just “sperm” swimming around, like some are trying to make it out to be. They use the excuse “but my body”. It’s disgusting to see people trying to justify murder under the guise of “what if the mother might die”, knowing that this isn’t always going to be the case.

It’s my personal opinion, but people who try to justify murdering a baby that far into a pregnancy are no different than people who try to justify murdering children. I’m sorry, but at that point in the pregnancy, you are responsible for that child. If you don’t want it, then give t up for adoption.

Well, I'm a male so I really don't think my opinion should hold much weight when it comes to the decisions of a female's body and the weight and responsibility of Parenthood, especially for a mother... But I will say that I'd hope most people could find out about pregnancy within the first 8 weeks and make a decision by 13 weeks. That seems like the most morally acceptable timespan.

 

[g11]

I know my opinion will be worth less than mud around here on this issue because I'm lacking a uterus, but this sounds like a pretty inconsequential change. According to the CDC, in 2011 64.5% of all abortions were performed by 8 weeks gestation or less, 91.4% were performed at 13 weeks or less, and 98.6% were performed by week 20. That leaves 1.4% performed after 20 weeks. [Source] So for the vast majority of abortions, this would change nothing. For that 1.4% or roughly 10,000 women per year, they still have four and a half months to get an abortion should they so choose. If somehow that is still not enough time, giving the child up for adoption is still an option.

Personally I take more issue with the limiting of access to safe abortions that has happened over the last 15 years or so, mostly on a state level, so that depending on where they live some women have to travel hundreds of miles, possibly to another state, to get a safe abortion. If there can be a national law limiting term on abortions, there can be one guaranteeing a reasonable level of access to safe abortions at a national level as well.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Fuck them all.

 

[biggersmaller]

I talked this through with my liberal wife, with which we have kids. I also had a mother that worked in a very liberal clinic for years. Her clients lived in the neighborhood we did and some became family friends in the late 80s through mid 90s. These experiences have informed my personal opinions on such laws. For me it's about viability. In fact 5% of all babies born at 22 weeks survive while 23% of treated at that rate do.* I frankly support this law. A woman has no right to tell a doctor to kill what could be a viable human life. It's no longer a law telling her what to do with just her body. At that point doctors should be fighting to save a life.

Adoption is an option. Keeping the baby is an option. People I respect and the courts obviously say such options should indefinitely be in the hands of the mother. I simply disagree.


*Source: The Economist

https://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/economist-explains-23

 

[Assanova]

Yup, go make it someone else's problem. Drop that baby like a diseased rock and run before your conscience catches on.

I mean, why not go and murder every child that isn’t an adult that might have a hard life, right? I guess abortion after 20 weeks is different because no one can actually see the child, right??

 

[theechrisfox]

I'd rather have civil war.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yep. Seeing that put abortion into a whole new perspective for me. That is a human and not just “sperm” swimming around, like some are trying to make it out to be. They use the excuse “but my body”. It’s disgusting to see people trying to justify murder under the guise of “what if the mother might die”, knowing that this isn’t always going to be the case.

It’s my personal opinion, but people who try to justify murdering a baby that far into a pregnancy are no different than people who try to justify murdering children. I’m sorry, but at that point in the pregnancy, you are responsible for that child. If you don’t want it, then give t up for adoption.

Yes because abortion at 21 weeks is just like murdering a 4 year old....

Also but my body works... if you were the only person on earth who could save someone by blood transfusion or organ donation, if they'd die without it... even if you somehow caused them to be in that position you still wouldn't be forced to donate anything part of your body/

 

[Skellig Gra]

That's a given, and something most people probably/hopefully agree on. But I'm genuinely curious as to what your opinion is. You said you don't give a shit about what the couple down the street do with their pregnancy. What if they decide, along with their doctor, to abort in week 30? What would you think?

Then it was medically necessary and that's perfectly fine. They are probably going to be suffering the rest of their lives because of it.

The only abortions I'm morally opposed to are like 0.1% cases where some person is like I didn't want a boy or just using it as birth control repeatedly.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I mean, why not go and murder every child that isn't an adult that might have a hard life, right? I guess abortion after 20 weeks is different because no one can actually see the child, right??

This is so beyond ridiculous that I can't even call it a shitty slippery slope argument, it's more like a slippery cliff.

 

[TBiddy]

Then it was medically necessary and that's perfectly fine. They are probably going to be suffering the rest of their lives because of it.

The only abortions I'm morally opposed to are like 0.1% cases where some person is like I didn't want a boy or just using it as birth control repeatedly.

Fair enough - thanks. I don't necessarily agree with you, but that's ok!

 

[Mahonay]

Towards the end, I thought George had become too cantankerous and angry. I didn't realize he was being prescient.

I'll take Zombie President George Carlin over Trump.

 

[Beartruck]

This is for show considering it would need 60 votes in the senate. Same for how they could act like repealing Obamacare until it was actually possible.

Completely for show. Who would even abort past the 20 week mark anyways? That's almost 5 months!

 

[zer0das]

Effectively in red states this means they'd shut down as many clinics as they could (not that they aren't trying that already), so whoops, you passed 20 weeks, guess it is illegal now.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Fair enough - thanks. I don't necessarily agree with you, but that's ok!

I do understand the arguments both ways. Problem is most people just want to shout down from their perceived position of moral superiority and not engage in meaningful dialogue. Of course that stretches well beyond abortion these days but I believe it is the origin of a lot of our current divisions.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I mean, why not go and murder every child that isn’t an adult that might have a hard life, right? I guess abortion after 20 weeks is different because no one can actually see the child, right??

Damn. Didn't realise that there were only two options and the one involved killing every kid not born into a comfortable life. That really puts it into perspective for me.

 

[Mahonay]

I mean, why not go and murder every child that isn’t an adult that might have a hard life, right? I guess abortion after 20 weeks is different because no one can actually see the child, right??

 

[Nillansan]

I mean, why not go and murder every child that isn’t an adult that might have a hard life, right? I guess abortion after 20 weeks is different because no one can actually see the child, right?

Talk about a complete disconnect from reality.

 

[Chuck Norris]

I'm pro-choice, but going through with it at 20 weeks just feels very murky...