You know what is a lot more murky? Regulating by law what women are allowed to do with their own bodies.
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Trump administration backs 20-week abortion ban
- Thread starter Oersted
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Skellig Gra
Member
Highly depends on the situation. If they do the anatomy scan and the baby is missing half it's brain it's not so murky anymore. Which is why laws for abortion are impossible.
GoldenEye 007
Member
The anti choice people always come off as very disingenuous in these arguments.
For one, I dont see them lining up to take care of a potential baby. I also dont see them fighting for universal and affordable healthcare for all so that mothers can be fully informed of their situation and reality. I dont see them fighting for expanded sexual education and contraceptive access.
It is interesting that the US appears a bit less restrictive than some European countries. But their healthcare affordability, education, and access runs circles around the longstanding US reality. You cant even point to lower infant and maternal mortality rates here in the US.
For one, I dont see them lining up to take care of a potential baby. I also dont see them fighting for universal and affordable healthcare for all so that mothers can be fully informed of their situation and reality. I dont see them fighting for expanded sexual education and contraceptive access.
It is interesting that the US appears a bit less restrictive than some European countries. But their healthcare affordability, education, and access runs circles around the longstanding US reality. You cant even point to lower infant and maternal mortality rates here in the US.
hey_monkey
Banned
Which society has decided to take care of unwanted babies? All babies? Good care?
Y'all act like the pregnant woman is the ONLY factor in this decision. Find a doctor to perform a 36-week "abortion" just because, yawn, pregnant lady is so over it. Won't happen. That's beyond finding a statistically significant number of cases in which a woman even sought such a thing for healthy babies absent any other issues (like mental illness).
...just... see above. See the whole thread.
The very fact that I've spent my entire adult life fighting for basic knowledge about being a woman, that I've been made ashamed over my anatomy, that I have to keep having this conversation, that the threat of bans and bureaucracy and the end of Roe v Wade constantly lingers... all that and more feels pretty anti-woman to me. Inherently.
Going to drop this here, reflects on someone who had a sibling with major disabilities.
https://np.reddit.com/r/Columbus/co...bortion_on_down_syndrome_fetus_to_be/dnkw1hp/
https://np.reddit.com/r/Columbus/co...bortion_on_down_syndrome_fetus_to_be/dnkw1hp/
They don't involve women in the conversation. They are making a choice for them about their own bodies. How is this not inherently anti-women?
Why do they care about fetuses more than humans and children that are out in the world already existing? A lot of "pro-lifers" are also against Universal Healthcare and gun control. No, they don't get to take a moral high ground on imposing pregnancy laws on women they haven't even asked.
Chuck Norris
Banned
At the point where the child has a developed nervous system, limbs and a brain I don't know that it's just her body anymore. At what point is too much?
Extraordinary circumstances like that should be considered
TBiddy
Member
It's still not your decision.
Chuck Norris
Banned
My decision?
It doesn't matter if we as men disagree. It is up to women to make the choice.
Chuck Norris
Banned
I didn't say I disagree, all I said is it's murky at that stage. I don't know and I don't have the answer.
Skellig Gra
Member
The problem with the anti-woman argument is that scores of women are pro-life. Now that doesn't mean these women aren't opposed to their own interests but it's a reality. I've long thought that if the left toned down the anti-abortion rhetoric they'd win a lot of pro-life women voters who are single issue voters.
The Greek Freak
Member
Remember the time like 20 months ago when I thought Trump was just a racist shit, but I thought he would at least not be a bible thumping racist shit?
Man those were the times!
Man those were the times!
This is silly. He can have an opinion no matter what's in his pants
benicillin
Banned
Oh trust me, I dont think anyone on the internet would ever doubt that men have opinions about literally everything.
I'm curious what percentage of women that are anti-abortion are also evangelical/religious?
And of course you'll always have the element that just goes with the far right, no matter how against their own personal interests it is.
you can be female and still be a thrall of the patriarchy
anyways, the vast majority of these women wouldn't turn to the left if the left turned down its pro-choice rhetoric; they would just find a new set of rights that they could try to eliminate
Oh, he doesn't give a fuck about the bible, trust me. In fact I'd be willing to bet that he couldn't name five books from the bible off the top of his head. This is just appealing to his idiotic base, with a little Pence influence thrown in.
An opinion based on privilege. As a white person I can have an opinion on how black people protest. I shouldn't, but I suppose I can.
Yup. It's always puritanical nonsense.
Dude Abides
Banned
Forced pregnancy zealots 1973-2016: Roe v. Wade was wrong! It should be left to the states.
Forced pregnancy zealots 2017: lets ban abortion at the federal level!
Forced pregnancy zealots 2017: lets ban abortion at the federal level!
Men already share their opinion on this quite heavily. Some with the power to impose laws.
Men's voices aren't something that's particularly struggled to be heard. I don't think it's an issue. Especially here, with you know, pregnancy, pregnancies of which they are not carrying.
Skellig Gra
Member
Vast majority? Sure but if you snag 10% that's a massive win.
At some point, a fetus in the womb becomes a human life worth protecting for the same reasons we have laws against murder.
My personal opinion is that human life becomes worth protecting whenever that life achieves consciousness. Maybe I'm just ignorant, but there doesn't seem to be much agreement on when precisely that is. Probably somewhere around "viability", which seems like it's anywhere from 20-24 weeks?
Whenever that cutoff is, when the baby achieves viability, I'm only in favor of abortion in extreme circumstances like risk to the life of the mother,.extreme birth defects, or circumstances like multiple births where all of the babies are at risk of dying if some are not terminated.
I don't feel that there is an epidemic of women choosing to terminate after viability, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be laws against it. And honestly, whether or not 20 weeks is the correct cutoff or not, I really can't really be angry at people who do feel it is the correct cutoff. This is a very grey issue and nobody talks like it is.
Yup I know plenty of women, non religious, left leaning even that are pro life.
Also let's not forget that advocacy needs to be for more support of women with children or having children most abortions are related to financial issues or being unprepared.
That stolen seat is gonna haunt us for a long time.
The Greek Freak
Member
Oh I agree with you, I just thought the pandering to religious cunts would be mostly surface level not shit like this. (20 months ago that is, by election time I knew I was wrong as hell).
I'll never understand. But that's ok. Even if I disagree, it's still what should be happening for anything regarding abortion and pregnancies, women deciding what they want, not men.
snausagesUK
Member
Is there no possibility of legislating for abortion after twenty weeks but only in the event of massively debilitating conditions?
I'm a man so it's not a decision I'd ever have to make but I can't help but find abortion troubling. Equally a miserable quality of life for parent and child is not something anyone should have to deal with.
I'm a man so it's not a decision I'd ever have to make but I can't help but find abortion troubling. Equally a miserable quality of life for parent and child is not something anyone should have to deal with.
Obama sure screwed the pooch on that one.
But that doesn't make it not anti-woman. Just because a bunch of women also want to impose bad rules on other women doesn't change that fact. The legislation hurts women. It doesn't stop hurting women just because women support it.
If my kid is delighted by me feeding them nothing but twinkles that doesn't suddenly make it a pro-child diet.
Fixed.
The American public decided they didn't care about the obstruction.
Dude Abides
Banned
There's no reason to think you could "snag" any significant number of them unless you also threw gay people, single mothers, and racial minorities In the garbage as well.
What about babies with severe life disabilities? Are those things detected before 20 weeks?
Skellig Gra
Member
Might as well just give up and use the same formula then. How's that working out?
He will pander to anyone dumb enough to think wearing a MAGA hat makes them look good.
Trump is the real life version of a reputation bar in a RPG. He will do anything to increase his standing with any group he can, by any means necessary.
Man, remember when it was thought he was going to run as an independent just to get his good friends the Clinton's back in power.
You know, except for the people that might need an abortion for whatever reason decided between them, and their doctor.
This is why thinking purely in terms of politics is so off-putting to me. "You could gain X% of people and then you win!!!!!" Win what? I certainly don't 'win' the battle of that particular argument. There was a point in time where people could "win" by deciding our black citizens shouldn't have rights. Would that win be worth the trade? Why is this one?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
there is a test you can do at 13 weeks that looks for birth defects, down syndrome and stillborn syndrome. but that costs $1000 and the insurance doesnt cover it.
the first real ultrasound covered by most insurance companies is at 20 weeks. if there is something wrong with the baby, that is when abortions are performed.
No one is carrying a baby for five months just to change their mind. this isnt directed at you but the poster you replied to. this is a horrifying absolutely disheartening event in every parents life and everyone better hope they dont have to make that decision, let alone have a decision be made for you.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The GOP is appealing to a part of their base. Lots of them probably give no fucks but there's so many voters in the US whose single issue is abortion, especially among women and Democrats are majorly pro life.
old
Member
We live in a global world. In a global world, the rich with the means to travel enjoy global rights. If abortion is legal somewhere then anyone who can afford to travel has the right to an abortion.
Poor women should demand that if they're reproductive rights get taken then so should rich women's too. Poor women should demand a new fully staffed bureau be created to monitor, investigate and prosecute rich women who fly to foreign lands to get abortions past 20 weeks.
Rich women support these laws because it makes them feel good but also knowing they can afford a plane ticket to Canada or Europe to get an abortion if they need it. Take that comfort away from them. Let them know that if they take away your rights then you're going to make sure they get convicted of murder if they themselves flee to Europe for an abortion. The day rich women lose that comfort they might just rethink their stance on voting republican.
Tit for tat. You screw us. We screw you. We rise or fall together.
Poor women should demand that if they're reproductive rights get taken then so should rich women's too. Poor women should demand a new fully staffed bureau be created to monitor, investigate and prosecute rich women who fly to foreign lands to get abortions past 20 weeks.
Rich women support these laws because it makes them feel good but also knowing they can afford a plane ticket to Canada or Europe to get an abortion if they need it. Take that comfort away from them. Let them know that if they take away your rights then you're going to make sure they get convicted of murder if they themselves flee to Europe for an abortion. The day rich women lose that comfort they might just rethink their stance on voting republican.
Tit for tat. You screw us. We screw you. We rise or fall together.
Dude Abides
Banned
Who else should Democrats abandon based on your feels about chasing a white whale?
Skellig Gra
Member
Win control of the government instead of this shit show currently going on. I don't see your point about trading anything. Abortion is currently legal. All I said was tone down the rhetoric.
I think this dialogue has run its course.
Audioboxer
Member
24 weeks is the soft limit in the UK.
There's no need for people to be instantly hostile talking about best scientific estimates on best abortion practice.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Abortion/Pages/Introduction.aspx
If your argument is simply you want the ability to abort at any length of weeks, then you do have to accept most places around the world that Americans say have better Governments than them, have limits like we do in the UK, with the caveat above.
I think the argument here is 20 weeks should be at 24 weeks, and the mention of severe disability. Unfortunately, the Republicans will probably be hostile to that.
Your kinda fine with spouting off an uneducated opinion?
Hey ladies- you have to keep your nonviable fetus and risk death yourself!
You're part of the problem.
TBiddy
Member
What is up with the ridiculous hyperbole and hostility in this thread?
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