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[Mrbob]

Here is the dealio. I'm trying to look into resources to make a selection on a HDTV set. I'm thinking between 30-34". I may, MAY go rear projection route but I doubt it. I would like to stay around $1000 which means I'm looking at about a 30" set. I have been pretty much set on a Samsung, however I noticed none of their 30" sets seem to come with a HDMI connection. Only DVI. Is HDMi that important? My gut feeling says yes but I'd like to get some expert opinion on this. If so scratch the Samsung off the list.

So, that leaves me with other choices. Sony wouldn't be bad but it isn't my first or second choice. Toshiba and Phillips aren't on the top of my list either. If Samsung is out of the picture, then I'd probably lean towards JVC. Only problem is I haven't been able to see a JVC set yet. I know they are out there so hopefully I can get a gander too.

If you have some suggestions let me have them.

I only have two requirement before you do make a suggestion though:

1) Price should be around $1000

2) The set must support 480P, 1080i, and 720P (Xbox 2!)

 

[Cooper]

HDMI is essentially DVI + the audio signal. So as long as the TV has one or the other, you're fine.

 

[Crazymoogle]

HDMI is essentially DVI + the audio signal. So as long as the TV has one or the other, you're fine.

Er, you mean

DVI + HDCP + the audio signal

No HDCP support = HDMI adapter no worky

NOTE: Most TVs that have DVI have HDCP, but make sure to check...

 

[Nerevar]

however I noticed none of their 30" sets seem to come with a HDMI connection. Only DVI. Is HDMi that important?

as long as the DVI port can decode HDCP (the copyright protection), it doesn't make a difference at all (except HDMI carries audio and DVI does not).

2) The set must support 480P, 1080i, and 720P (Xbox 2!)

Good luck finding a direct-view CRT that does that for $1000. Most direct-views can't do progressive scan, at least that I saw. It's a big reason I went RP, but if someone more knowledgeable can point you to one I will gladly eat my words.

 

[Cooper]

Er, you mean

DVI + HDCP + the audio signal

No HDCP support = HDMI adapter no worky

NOTE: Most TVs that have DVI have HDCP, but make sure to check...

Given that it's extremely difficult to buy a new TV that has DVI but is non-HDCP compliant, it didn't seem worth pointing out.

Good luck finding a direct-view CRT that does that for $1000. Most direct-views can't do progressive scan, at least that I saw. It's a big reason I went RP

It's true that most direct view CRTs don't actually display 720p. However, most RPs don't either. Almost all of them convert 720p to either 480p or 1080i. Which TV do you have?

 

[Goreomedy]

I can recommend:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INT...U=KV32HS420&Dept=tv&CategoryName=tv_hdtv_tube

Beautiful set. Probably the best 32 inch you can buy. Why the apprehension with Sony sets?

You should be able to find it for less than $900.00, and it meets all of your qualifications, HDMI included.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Given that it's extremely difficult to buy a new TV that has DVI but is non-HDCP compliant, it didn't seem worth pointing out.

I didn't mean to nitpick on that point, but while it's hard to find a "new" TV without HDCP, there are still plenty of older or refurb models out there where DVI was little more than an afterthought in the TV design.

It's true that most direct view CRTs don't actually display 720p. However, most RPs don't either. Almost all of them convert 720p to either 480p or 1080i.

Very true, which stands to reason since standard RP is still just a CRT anyway. I'd much rather go 3LCD than RPTV, but as always it's best to look at stuff in the shops rather than just go off the spec sheet.

Beautiful set. Probably the best 32 inch you can buy. Why the apprehension with Sony sets?

My only apprehension about WEGA sets is the same about any HD CRT ...the inability to display proper 720p. Still, that's a nice looking set. It's not 16:9 which is either very good or very bad depending on what you're looking for.

 

[EclipseGST]

Samsung DLP does 720p native and so does the mitsubishi dlp. GO DLP.....

A nice 46" runs 2200 at best buy right now. Plus if you get the best buy card you can get 2yrs no interest financing.

 

[Nerevar]

It's true that most direct view CRTs don't actually display 720p. However, most RPs don't either. Almost all of them convert 720p to either 480p or 1080i. Which TV do you have?

oh, mine converts everything to 720p (it's an RP LCD). But most CRTs I saw don't even accept a 720p signal, given that "most set top boxes do the conversion anyway." It's because of this that I think xbox 2 will be able to scale 720p to 1080i anyway.

 

[Cooper]

oh, mine converts everything to 720p (it's an RP LCD). But most CRTs I saw don't even accept a 720p signal, given that "most set top boxes do the conversion anyway." It's because of this that I think xbox 2 will be able to scale 720p to 1080i anyway.

Ah. Yeah, I used to have an old Samsung CRT HDTV that just showed a blank screen when you sent a 720p signal. I'm suprised manufacturers are still doing that. Although they can't beat the older 720p native RCA DLPs that wouldn't accept a 720p signal.

 

[Goreomedy]

My only apprehension about WEGA sets is the same about any HD CRT ...the inability to display proper 720p.

How are HD CRT's incapable of displaying "proper" 720p? Pixel issue? That's the current default setting on my HD-DVR and it looks noticably better on my new WEGA than the other options.

 

[metsallica]

It's not natively displaying that signal, it's most likely up/downconverting it (as has been covered previously in this thread).

 

[Crazymoogle]

How are HD CRT's incapable of displaying "proper" 720p? Pixel issue? That's the current default setting on my HD-DVR and it looks noticably better on my new WEGA than the other options.

As I recall, (and hopefully I'm not mixing anything up here), the issue is basically cost. Building a 1920x1080 progressive CRT is almost the same thing as building a 1920x1080 computer monitor. It has to be able to drive 60 full frames per second, have a dot pitch of probably .27 or better, and unlike typical monitors, has to be in the 30+ inch range.

In order to get up to such a freakish size without introducing a car-size price tag, the dot pitch is reduced (.36 at best), the horizontal resolution is reduced (1080i is actually 1440x1080), and the electron guns only have to paint half the picture sixty times a second (540-576 lines, which is more than enough for 480p, but not even close to 720p). CRT manufacturers know it's not perfect, so better sets upconvert the 720p signal to something it can use.

Most LCD/DLP/Plasma sets go the other way - with native progressive support and a max resolution of 1280x780 or 1366x768, 720p is the obvious "native resolution", and good sets will try to convert 1080i instead.

 

[Mrbob]

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...ductCategoryId=pcmcat31800050030&type=product

Integrated Dual HD ATSC/QAM/NTSC tunner processes 720p, 1080i, 480i and progressive-scan DVD player 480p signals

http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=TXP3071WHX/XAA

Dual HD Supports 720p and 1080i HD Signals

This is better than having a TV that can't process the singal, right?

Even if it up converts that doesn't seem like a big deal though. It's only 30" not like it is a 65" inch screen.

 

[Crazymoogle]

This is better than having a TV that can't process the singal, right?

Basically right. That appears to be a 16:9 set that will upconvert 720p to 1080i. It's "better" in that you'll be able to handle either form of HD content and you're going to get a pretty good picture. Not quite 720p perfect, not quite 1080i perfect, but a great overall picture that has definite advantages over other TV types.

Even if it up converts that doesn't seem like a big deal though. It's only 30" not like it is a 65" inch screen.

Is the picture accurate? No.
Are you likely to notice upscaling artifacts or the missing lines of 1080i resolution: Probably not.

 

[Ferny84]

Hey guys, is this TV any good?

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...id=0770HDS0010045808&catid=11302&newdeptid=11

 

[Nerevar]

This is better than having a TV that can't process the singal, right?

Even if it up converts that doesn't seem like a big deal though. It's only 30" not like it is a 65" inch screen.

Some people complain, but I've never been able to see the difference between content broadcast in 720p versus 1080i (the resolution is already so much higher than I'm used to I can't tell the difference in the conversion process). You should be fine - just make sure you buy a set that explicity states it can do both HDTV resolutions, like the ones you found.

Hey guys, is this TV any good?

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pr...02&newdeptid=11

I guess, but notice that it can't resolve 720p (it lists only 480i, 480p, 960i, and 1080i resolutions).

 

[Jotaro]

What you need is the Sanyo CRT 30 inches widescreen HDTV, only available at Wal-Mart. Go over there!

 

[rc213]

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sams.../sem/rpsm/oid/91175/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Sams.../sem/rpsm/oid/91174/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do


How do these compare to the ones posted above off Best Buy?

 

[shantyman]

My 30" Sony Widescreen accepts 720p. It was around $900 at Circuit City- it is a great TV that does not break the bank, however it has no integrated HD tuner if that matters to you. The model number is KV 30HS420. It has an HDMI input.

The Sanyo the other posted is an awesome set, best bang for your buck as it is only $650 USD and it has an integrated HD tuner. The AVS Forum has an extensive thread about it.

 

[seanoff]

if u get the super fine pitch versions of the Sony's they display 720p perfectly.


Why? u ask.


because their native resolution is 1920 x 1440. divide 1440 by 2 folks.


it uses 2 lines for each 720 line and the picture is mmmmm.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Are you posting to GAF using a cell phone? "Why? I ask."

if u get the super fine pitch versions of the Sony's they display 720p perfectly.

Actually, if you calculate out the resolution based on dot pitch (best case), it can only pull off something like 1800x1175. And the super-fine-pitch technology doesn't really have any bearing on the vertical resolution since on Wega TVs it's the beam spot size that determines how many lines happen.

If you've got a source for that 1440 figure I'd love to see it, though.

 

[hiryu]

I just got this.

Toshiba

You can actually get it in the store for $996. It doesn't do 720p natively, but it does upconvert it to 1080i. It's a very nice TV as long as you have the space. You do not want to sit too close to a rear projection tv. Also make sure you turn the contrast down to about 40 on every input. A dvd like Digital Video Essentials would also help you tune your tv correctly.

 

[Deg]

I brought a 36" Toshiba a little while ago. Damn thing wasnt displaying lines 100% straight and couldnt do 60hz without zooming in.

Got another 36" tv and that had the same problems except the lighting wasnt consistent if you use picture setting dvd's display aplain colour across the screen you could notice on some colours that the lighting isnt consistent. None of these issues are noticeable when watching anything however but its annoying that they are there.

Going to 32" now

 

[Deg]

Are you posting to GAF using a cell phone? "Why? I ask."

Well why not? Its better than watching a movie in an inner city train.

 

[Manabanana]

Where could I educate myself on all this?

 

[Crazymoogle]

Well why not? Its better than watching a movie in an inner city train.

Nothing wrong with the reading. But notice how you use spelling, grammar, and punctuation, which is a far cry from the "u r rite" situation. But I digress...

Your first TV problem is pretty weird, but I think there was a chance the second one could have been fixed using the service menu. If you have a non-costly way to exchange, though, all the more power to you. Might want to consider a brand-shift, though. I have no idea how Toshiba's perform on typical CRT duties, so if that brand isn't working out, try a Sony or Panasonic, I suppose.

Where could I educate myself on all this?

Well, I put together a reasonable 5-part gamers guide on my blog as a result of past threads like these. The final part links to places that really get in depth though, such as the almighty AVS forums and Home Theater Forum - places you honestly should be visiting before buying a TV, DVD player, or home theater setup. Never before have I seen people with such deep pockets and such an obsessive eye for detail.

 

[rc213]

The Samsung Widescreen TV's look great but I was wondering how it display regular cable signal? Are there black bars on the Left and Right only or does it put some at the top and bottom of a picture? =\ Also what about tuners, I seen some that come with ATSC/NTSC/QAM? Some even come with 2 plugs for antenna's. This is making my head hurt.

 

[Mike Works]

I'm a self admitted TV newbie, so when a TV upconverts a 720p signal to 1080i, is there any picture quality lost?

 

[Crazymoogle]

I'm a self admitted TV newbie, so when a TV upconverts a 720p signal to 1080i, is there any picture quality lost?

Sort of. 1080i shows more pixels (usually just strategically doubling pixels as necessary to make up the difference), but can only show a half frame while 720p shows a full one. So theoretically, 1080i can never show more than half the framerate of 720. The interlacing effect also makes the picture less sharp/clear.

That being said, almost every TV on the market has a non-standard native resolution, so whatever you see is getting scaled anyway. 720p is universally considered better for games and sports broadcasts (which can really use a clear 60fps), but internal scaling is generally reliable enough that casual users have trouble telling the difference between 720p/1080i.

 

[Cooper]

The Samsung Widescreen TV's look great but I was wondering how it display regular cable signal? Are there black bars on the Left and Right only or does it put some at the top and bottom of a picture? =\ Also what about tuners, I seen some that come with ATSC/NTSC/QAM? Some even come with 2 plugs for antenna's. This is making my head hurt.

Which Samsung TVs are you asking about? In general, most 16:9 TVs offer several standard modes for viewing different aspect ratios. They usually have:
- A pillar box mode, which keeps the original aspect ratio intact and puts bars on the side
- A zoom mode, which keeps the propotions intact so people don't look fat, but chops image data off the top and sides
- A stretch mode, which keeps all the image data on-screen but distorts the image horizontally. This may be a linear stretch, which is just the entire image multiplied by a scale factor, or non-linear, so the center of the image looks fairly normal but the sides are heavily distorted.

The Samsung DLPs I have seen have all of these modes, including the non-linear stretch. I don't know about their other TVs.

As for the tuners,

ATSC - Allows you to receive digital over-the-air broadcasts using a standard UHF antenna. It's nice to have if your locals broadcast HD, since it's totally free.
QAM - Allows you to watch digital cable without a box from your cable company. Instead, you use a CableCARD. Current implementation is spotty, and it doesn't have all the features of most cable STBs (e.g. you can't use it for on-demand programming or anything that requires two way communication).
NTSC - Your generic analog over-the-air tuner that TVs have had forever by now. I pity you if you actually still use this tuner to get OTA programming.

I'm not sure why you'd need two antenna inputs. Most TVs have a pass-through so you can connect your TV to a VCR or other device.

How do you get your programming currently? Cable, satellite, other?

 

[rc213]

Which Samsung TVs are you asking about? In general, most 16:9 TVs offer several standard modes for viewing different aspect ratios. They usually have:
- A pillar box mode, which keeps the original aspect ratio intact and puts bars on the side
- A zoom mode, which keeps the propotions intact so people don't look fat, but chops image data off the top and sides
- A stretch mode, which keeps all the image data on-screen but distorts the image horizontally. This may be a linear stretch, which is just the entire image multiplied by a scale factor, or non-linear, so the center of the image looks fairly normal but the sides are heavily distorted.

The Samsung DLPs I have seen have all of these modes, including the non-linear stretch. I don't know about their other TVs.

As for the tuners,

ATSC - Allows you to receive digital over-the-air broadcasts using a standard UHF antenna. It's nice to have if your locals broadcast HD, since it's totally free.
QAM - Allows you to watch digital cable without a box from your cable company. Instead, you use a CableCARD. Current implementation is spotty, and it doesn't have all the features of most cable STBs (e.g. you can't use it for on-demand programming or anything that requires two way communication).
NTSC - Your generic analog over-the-air tuner that TVs have had forever by now. I pity you if you actually still use this tuner to get OTA programming.

I'm not sure why you'd need two antenna inputs. Most TVs have a pass-through so you can connect your TV to a VCR or other device.

How do you get your programming currently? Cable, satellite, other?

Im looking at their 26" 16:9 and their 27" 4:3. Both have a NTSC/QAM/ATSC tuners built in. Im currently using comcast's basic antenna service but im looking to get Dish Network or Direct TV service. I also play alot of Xbox games and use it for my DVD viewing.


http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?prod_id=TXP2675WHX%2fXAA

http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?prod_id=TXP2775HX%2fXAA

Thanks for your help Cooper.

Connections on the back:

 

[Cooper]

Im looking at their 26" 16:9 and their 27" 4:3. Both have a NTSC/QAM/ATSC tuners built in. Im currently using comcast's basic antenna service but im looking to get Dish Network or Direct TV service. I also play alot of Xbox games and use it for my DVD viewing.

I checked the instruction manual for the TX-P2670WH online. I guess some of the situations where they picture you using two antenna inputs are if you wanted to use the internal ATSC receiver as well as a device connected through RF, like the NES or analog cable, or if you wanted a separate VHF and UHF antenna. It also looks like the TV has a pillarbox mode, two levels of zoom, and a stretch mode (can't tell if it's linear or not).

If you move to a satellite provider, you might not have much use for the TV's internal tuners. The Sat. providers' HD boxes come with their own ATSC receivers, and aren't CableCARD compatible. You could still use the TV's internal ATSC tuner if you felt it gave you better quality for the broadcast channels, and it never hurts to have backup options, of course. If you stuck with Comcast and upgraded to their HD plan, the TV's tuners would be more useful. The QAM tuner would allow you to avoid STB rental fees, and the ATSC tuner could pull in whatever digital locals Comcast doesn't carry. It's not uncommon for cable providers to currently only carry a subset of available digital locals, and their boxes usually don't have their own OTA tuners.

I assure you that HD is a very rewarding experience once you get past the initial hurdles. I've been watching it for several years now, and there's no going back once you know how good shows can look. Let me know if I can help.

 

[rc213]

Is watching SD broadcast with a 16:9 TV bothersome? Do the bars on the side just blend in after a while? Should I go with the 4:3 set? Thanks for your time Cooper, much appreciated. I've been reading the AVS Forum's and it seems Comcast Cable with these TV sets are quite a nice experience because of the exact reasons u posted aswell.

 

[Cooper]

Is watching SD broadcast with a 16:9 TV bothersome? Do the bars on the side just blend in after a while? Should I go with the 4:3 set?

I don't find bars on the side any more bothersome than letterboxing on widescreen movies. At 26", the 4:3 picture might be a bit small, depending on what size TV you're coming from, but it sounds like you already watch a good amount of widescreen content (DVDs and Xbox games?).

A 26" 16:9 TV would give you a ~21" 4:3 picture, and a 27" 4:3 would give you a 25" 16:9 image. Every inch counts in sub-40" TVs, and personally I'd go for maximizing the size of the high quality WS image (DVDs, WS games, HDTV) over the lower-quality 4:3 one. The only thing that might tip me to the 4:3 TV is if it's a lot cheaper, which they sometimes are.

 

[rc213]

Im currently on 3-4 year old 27" Sony Trinitron. It's really a replacement because my Sister is moving so she's gonna be taking her T.V <Bastard :lol >. So i need to buy me a replacement and I thought I should probably looks towards a decently priced HDTV. Both those Samsungs are $649 at CC. Also, I just noticed your from L.A, what's your setup like? Comcast? Good to see so many Angelino's on the boards.

 

[Cooper]

Also, I just noticed your from L.A, what's your setup like? Comcast? Good to see so many Angelino's on the boards.

I use DirecTV with HDTivo. One guy here at work got a Comcast HD setup just before Christmas. They gave him a bit of trouble at first. He wanted an HD DVR, and the first one they sent him didn't actually have a disk in it. He eventually got it replaced with a working one, but he had to miss a day of work so the installer could come to his house. Apparently it's all worked out now. I talked to him a few days ago, and he loves his setup.

 

[Mrbob]

My buddy bought the 30" widescreen Sanyo. That is what I saw. It looked great with movies and games. I was shocked. I'm a bit skeptical though because I'm not too fond of Sanyo.

 

[rc213]

My buddy bought the 30" widescreen Sanyo. That is what I saw. It looked great with movies and games. I was shocked. I'm a bit skeptical though because I'm not too fond of Sanyo.

The Sanyo one looks pretty decent, I saw them at Wal-Mart. But on the AVS Forums it seems alot of people are having issues when using xbox/standalone dvd player connected to the component inputs. Colored snow and green lines running across the screen, so im not sure if i want to take the risk. Has he tried anything connected to the component inputs?

 

[Mrbob]

The Sanyo one looks pretty decent, I saw them at Wal-Mart. But on the AVS Forums it seems alot of people are having issues when using xbox/standalone dvd player connected to the component inputs. Colored snow and green lines running across the screen, so im not sure if i want to take the risk. Has he tried anything connected to the component inputs?

Yup. DVD player and PS2.

I played the God of War demo in 16:9 progressive mode oh my so sweet.

I can't force myself to buy a Sanyo set though. Their quality is too spotty.

 

[rc213]

Have u taken at the look Samsung HDTV, they look pretty good. Im holding out a bit to see if i can scrounge up enough for their 30" or 32". If i figure I cant do it i'll just go with the 27".

 

[Mrbob]

Have u taken at the look Samsung HDTV, they look pretty good. Im holding out a bit to see if i can scrounge up enough for their 30" or 32". If i figure I cant do it i'll just go with the 27".

...

Are you mocking me?

 

[rc213]

LOL, woops. Cant type straight while im trying to do 10 things at a time. :lol

 

[Jotaro]

Yup. DVD player and PS2.

I played the God of War demo in 16:9 progressive mode oh my so sweet.

I can't force myself to buy a Sanyo set though. Their quality is too spotty.

I got the Sanyo and the Samsung. The Sanyo is better.

 

[seanoff]

crazy,

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KD_34XBR960/4505-6481_7-30787600-2.html?tag=top

ony's 34-inch wide-screen tube-based direct-view HDTV, the KD-34XBR960, is simply the best-performing television of its kind on the market. Its screen boasts an incredible 1,400 lines of horizontal resolution, which allows it to resolve more detail with high-def sources than any other direct-view tube.

It will take PC output @ 1920 x 1440 and display everything really crisply.

Probably the best affordable picture out there. Can't get the money for a Qualia006 SXRD beast.

 

[hiryu]

Instead of the sony XBR series you can go with their XS series and save a few hundred. They have the exact same picture tube. The XBR just has a few more features like reading memory sticks.

 

[btrboyev]

it should be noted that the sanyo sets are using samsung picture tubes.

 

[Jotaro]

it should be noted that the sanyo sets are using samsung picture tubes.

I noticed something like that on both my 27 inches sets, there's some kind of uncanny similarity.

 

[dem]

When did TV buying become so bloody complicated?

Im almost scared to buy a tv now

 

[Crazymoogle]

http://reviews.cnet.com/Sony_KD_34XBR960/4505-6481_7-30787600-2.html?tag=top

Thanks for the link, yet if you look at this, then clearly Cnet is referring to 1400 pixels across rather than up/down, which seems to be backed up by various message board posts that think the XBR960 likely can handle around 1.5 million pixels (1400x1080) rather than 2 million (1920x1080).

Don't get me wrong, it's obviously the best CRT and one of the best TVs available period, but between the above evidence and the obvious dpi problem, it just doesn't sound like the TV can really duplicate 1920x1400 let alone true 1080i.