So far I'm disagreeing with him. Stories ARE external to the experience, but that doesn't make them bad or unnecessary. A good story is like a reward for playing single player.
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Twisted Metal |OT| Don't Eat. Don't Sleep. Play
- Thread starter Pranay
- Start date
So far I'm disagreeing with him. Stories ARE external to the experience, but that doesn't make them bad or unnecessary. A good story is like a reward for playing single player.
He's making a lot of good points :3
Yep. Right there with you. I don't agree with him at all. I think I'm going to turn him off before I start to take it out on my excitement for Twisted Metal.
DenogginizerOS
BenjaminBirdie's Thomas Jefferson
I wonder what the folks at Naughty Dog in attendance think of that.
ElRenoRaven
Member
I love him calling out execs and how developers can bullshit them into greenlighting a game yet the developer doesn't have a clue how to actually execute.
Don't get me wrong. I'm agreeing that focus on stories can detract from making good gameplay. But I think you need both in certain franchises. Obviously stories don't belong in Mario, but an RPG or adventure game can live or die based on its story.
When I read a book or watch a movie I'm not putting myself in the story, so why should that matter with games? Story should be a reward, and if it's not a reward then the story sucks
.Watch the video. I feel like I got a much better understanding of his stance on it... Seems to be less about removing stories from games, and more about recognizing what games are as a medium and building to the strengths of that medium. That may include a story or it may not, but the story should be integrated in a way that serves the game play.
It isn't a stance that I would always agree with, but I think it's definitely a salient point that a lot of developers miss. There have been plenty of games with stories that were detached from the game play that I thoroughly enjoyed; but plenty more that could have been improved by a story that served a well defined purpose or was done away with all together. What I did agree with is that games aren't the next step forward from movies or books. I feel more that they're a viable alternative as a delivery mechanism, but serve a different audience in a different manner then those other two.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I disagree with that. The reward for playing a game should be gratifying gameplay. A narrative driven game is exactly that: DRIVEN by the narrative in that the story gives context, but it shouldn't come at the expense of gameplay, or constantly be pulling the player out of the experience to SHOW great stuff when you can be DOING great stuff.
ElRenoRaven
Member
I don't think it was so much that but that they can have a story but they need to think about how they execute the story through the gameplay.
Exactly. You said it better then I can.
Again you said it perfectly too. I agree with you both.
weekend_warrior
Banned
I think he point was that a videogame with a great story is a waste if it doesn't have great gameplay to accompany it. That developers are focusing too much on the cinematics (which is the mediums weakest point) and ignoring the gameplay (which is the mediums biggest strength). I think he makes a good point. Look at shooters for example, pick up any shooter and I can tell you how to play. Push R1 to shoot, L1 to look down sights, L3 to run. The only difference is the look of the characters and sound of the guns. There's been a lot of stagnation in gameplay innovation this generation.
Anyone got a link to this? I missed it but would love to go back and listen.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
It's not so much about how stories in games are a waste of time but rather if you are going to make a game pitched around the idea of a story and then try to shove in gameplay for it you're wasting your time. The gameplay and how you're going to execute it should be the foundation and any story is just a candy layer on top, not the other way around. That's pretty much what I got out of the speech and that's how Naughty Dog has always made their games in my perspective.
And this is really getting off topic, sure it's Jaffe but it's not Twisted Metal.
Yes this too, absolutely. The speech as a whole is simply a cry out to the gaming industry to take advantage of the strengths of this medium.
ElRenoRaven
Member
Replay is up on gamespot if you wanna watch it.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I think Naughty Dog Does an excellent job of this actually and may agree with Jaffe. I know a lot of people that have criticized Uncharted for being a movie that you sometimes play but fail to realize those aren't cutscenes, YOU ARE playing those moments.
I think back to the Chopper sequence in UC2 and also the train and those blew me away that I was actually playing them. And the shipyard and ship scene in UC3 just floored me.
It's an interesting reflection on Twisted Metal though considering the drastic change in the presentation of the story compared to earlier entries in the series.
I'm saying that if you have a story, it should act as a reward for playing. You can have more than one reward and obviously gameplay should be paramount. But you're never going to put a person in a story the way Jaffe sees it because the story will always be external to your experience.
I don't read books or watch movies to become part of the story but I still enjoy them. Adding them to games in addition to good rewarding gameplay is a good way to keep people playing. There are many kinds of gamers and it doesn't hurt to cover your bases. Story can make up for individual differences.
Jaffe makes sense in that stories shouldn't replace good gameplay.
I don't know about you guys, but a big part of the draw to Twisted Metal for me was beating the campaign with every character and seeing what they wished for and what they got. Each car was like a reflection of their personality and I always really dug that about the series.
To know that this is not part of the new Twisted Metal was a real bummer for me, but the demo has at least shown me that I can still enjoy it without that.
To know that this is not part of the new Twisted Metal was a real bummer for me, but the demo has at least shown me that I can still enjoy it without that.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I thought Naughty Dog was on the right track with Uncharted 2, but they regressed with U3 IMO. They have a boner for the Tenzin village scene from U2, and seem hellbent on using that concept everywhere and slowing players down to turn the game into "Press UP while people talk" simulators. Those are the SAME as standard cutscenes but they get praise because you're "in gameplay." BS. There's NO gameplay there.
Videogames as a whole need to move towards "on the move" storytelling in-game. Stop slowing me down with "not-cutscenes" that actually ARE just cutscenes, and let characters talk while moving and doing stuff that progress gameplay in a significant way. If you feel the NEED to slow me down, just make it a cutscene that I can then skip on a repeated playthrough.
RuinerPrime
Member
i guess im one of the few that love well made cinematics...
I think there is more then enough room for games that try to tell a good story. I dont think it's right to say they should not exist because there are people that really enjoy those types of games and to deny that experience from them is wrong. And if you dont like those type of experiences just ignore it and buy games that do fit your tastes. I swear in every single thread about story focused games there is always that one person that thinks they are taking over the industry.
floored you in terms of visuals, graphics, presentation, spectacle and setpiece, but you weren't blown away by the gameplay itself. were you blown away by the gameplay mechanics at all? i think not.
there's a difference.
Why not.
First we had the poker boom. Second we had the MMA boom. Then came the zombie boom and now, car combat here we come!
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Looks like the final boss may have been found. I made a tinyurl for each image link just for extra precaution for those who really don't want any spoilers.
***Potential Spoilers***
http://tinyurl.com/85kl6wg
http://tinyurl.com/7d7stf9
http://tinyurl.com/6sufgev
http://tinyurl.com/7e9j4g7
Also if you go to the dude's portfolio there's some other cool Twisted Metal pics, such as a couple of the Nuke statues.
***Potential Spoilers***
http://tinyurl.com/85kl6wg
http://tinyurl.com/7d7stf9
http://tinyurl.com/6sufgev
http://tinyurl.com/7e9j4g7
Also if you go to the dude's portfolio there's some other cool Twisted Metal pics, such as a couple of the Nuke statues.
Net_Wrecker
Member
If a dev can find a balance, great. But a game where you "push" through gameplay maybe in RPG's, or mundane shooters because the story is a "reward" is totally backwards. GAMEPLAY should be the reward first and foremost. Make your game super fun to play so that getting to the next gameplay segment is the reward. THEN you worry about making sure the story, and how the story is presented, can keep up. That's another area where I felt Naughty Dog, for example, really screwed up in U3. That game was filled with "brute force" sections where you just wanted to see the next cutscene because the arena they placed you in and the tactics they wanted you to use were annoying as HELL. I know some people don't agree, but that's how I, and a number of people, felt.
It's not just about story first games, but even things like shooters are adopting some bad practices like "Press A to Awesome" sections where moment to moment gameplay is totally forgotten so the player's avatar can do some ridiculous one time series of moves that pushes the story forward. Stuff that could've easily been done in REAL gameplay where the player takes pride in his or her skill at the game.
ANYWAY, this is veering wildly off topic, TWISTED METAL is gonna be great, can't wait.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Yup, but
from the screenshot it looks like it takes place in that same canyon level that the Iron Maiden boss (from E3) takes place, and there's no way that thing will fit on those roads so maybe its at the bottom of the canyon and you're on the road and just fight the head. That'd be less epic than the concept art which makes it look like you have to drive to the top of the beast using that spiral track.
Behavior is motivated by consequences. Positive reinforcement through points or simply progression or negative reinforcement by getting passed aversive obstacles. Gameplay itself isn't intrinsically motivating. You have to make it motivating by striking a clever balance between making the current part of the game challenging enough that getting away from it by beating it feels negatively rewarding while not making it so aversive that people don't want to accept the greater challenges ahead as positive reinforcement (you also get positive reinforcement for beating a challenge from yourself in the form of positive self talk and from peers from social approval). If you do it right you get positive reinforcement cycling into negative reinforcement in a loop that makes the game addicting. That's why challenge is stimulating. It's very complicated and there are individual differences among players as to what is too challenging or what is challenging enough.
A good story is positive reinforcement, and having a good story doesn't mean that the gameplay has to suck. The route devs should go should be based on the genre and the IP. I want both kinds of games.
Syphon Filter
Member
demo expired,how can i get it back if its not on the store?
ElRenoRaven
Member
Wow. Looking at his site he has some amazing Twisted Metal related stuff besides already linked stuff.
RustyNails
Member
Not to sound like an ass, but the OT title reads like it's suited more for Little Big Planet than Twisted Metal. Other than that, good OP.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Ok, so I did a little more investigating and here's what I got regarding the final boss and how I think it'll play out! For those who don't want spoilers do not click on the links that pop through the spoiler bar, obviously.
Damn you Eat, Sleep, Play. The wait is now so much harder, you really outdid yourself!
You start off running away from the final boss, named Carnival of Carnage, as you can see in this concept art.
You then enter the boss and battle through this, this, and this. At first you may say, "That's not Twisted Metal, it's a pinball theme." But look carefully, you can see Death Warrant.
Anyways, once you get past that section of the boss you then must climb the spiral track as seen in the concept art, or if you want a screenshot, this.
And then you get to the final section of the boss where you must take on the head, this.
You then enter the boss and battle through this, this, and this. At first you may say, "That's not Twisted Metal, it's a pinball theme." But look carefully, you can see Death Warrant.
Anyways, once you get past that section of the boss you then must climb the spiral track as seen in the concept art, or if you want a screenshot, this.
And then you get to the final section of the boss where you must take on the head, this.
Damn you Eat, Sleep, Play. The wait is now so much harder, you really outdid yourself!
Also, this boss with the interior pinball room and exterior track and everything would be a cool idea to expand upon for a DLC map!
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Why can't it be both? Which was my original arguement. I actually enjoyed the combat and traversel in uncharted and the story telling lent itself to the gameplay because you felt involved at every moment. But this thread is about twisted metal and if that's the case what say you guys about the story elements in the new twisted metal? You are playing those live action cutscenes.
Oh my god. I wish that
pinball table
Death Dealer
Member
You can't play it anymore even if you had already downloaded it from the store. It won't let you play either MP or single player anymore. The demo just tells you it's expired, without launching from the XMB. I deleted it.
I think it's really terrible they didn't extend the demo after so many problems with the online/match making portion of the game. I tried to connect several times a day, for a week, before it finally started working. I imagine many casual players would not be as persistent and simply gave up and wrote it off when the MP feature of the demo was broken.
weekend_warrior
Banned
The Twisted Metal developer's name in Eat.Sleep.Play.
I think the OT name would sould a little better if it was "Don't Eat. Don't Sleep. Just Play."
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
The game is being streamed early by machinima if anyone is interested
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laK7kHxE97M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laK7kHxE97M
My god they are terrible..
Net_Wrecker
Member
Maaaaaaaaan they are BAD. Can't watch anymore
weekend_warrior
Banned
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Race controls (or Run n Gun as they were labeled in TM2 and TMB) are actually more effective in my opinion at least. One such reasoning is for Classic Controls gas is SQUARE and switch targets is R3, so you have to let go of gas to change who you are tracking. In Race controls gas is R2 and switch targets is L3 which are completely different fingers, actually completely different hands so it makes it really easy (especially because your thumb is on the left stick most the time anyways).
And man they don't even understand what's going on, it's so awful. I just hope they get to a boss battle.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Watching this has made me really want to play as Roadboat though (AKA "OH KNOW THE MAGNET!")
And Eat, Sleep, Play did a terrible job explaining the controls. The describe everything through Classic Controls regardless which control setting you are on. For instance they thought L1+Triangle was headlights but it was doing nothing when they tried it, that's because they are on race controls so its actually L1+R3. And they just unlocked rear freeze which the game explained as Up+Triangle but it's actually Up+R3 since they are using Race. How did ESP let this pass?
And Eat, Sleep, Play did a terrible job explaining the controls. The describe everything through Classic Controls regardless which control setting you are on. For instance they thought L1+Triangle was headlights but it was doing nothing when they tried it, that's because they are on race controls so its actually L1+R3. And they just unlocked rear freeze which the game explained as Up+Triangle but it's actually Up+R3 since they are using Race. How did ESP let this pass?
Well, next is Juggernaut Deathmatch. They have to destroy Juggernaut, who doesn't appear on radar, and Juggernaut will spawn a random enemy vehicle every few minutes.
Race controls, imo, make it harder to switch weapons and it's harder to double tap gas.
Classic controls are perfect for quick turning and boosting.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Though he's easy to find because he you can see him through walls if you're looking in his direction.
Also it's not that hard to switch weapons, I do it really quickly but I guess it's because I've used this control scheme since TM2.