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U.N. confirms Palestinians will be ICC member on April 1

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C

commedieu

Banned
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/07/us-palestinians-israel-un-idUSKBN0KG1JV2015

r


United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has confirmed the Palestinians will formally become a member of the International Criminal Court (ICC) on April 1 and the court's registrar said on Wednesday that jurisdiction would date back to June 13, 2014.

This means the court's prosecutor could investigate the 50-day war between Israel and Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip in July and August 2014, during which more than 2,100 Palestinians, 67 Israeli soldiers and six civilians in Israel were killed.

The Hague-based court handles war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. It could exercise jurisdiction over such crimes committed by anyone on Palestinian territory. Israel, like the United States, is not a an ICC member, but its citizens could be tried on accusations of crimes on Palestinian land.
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The Israeli administration immediately applied financial pressure on the Palestinian Authority, freezing the transfer of half a billion shekels (over $127 million) in monthly tax revenues it collected on behalf of the Palestinians.
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The US joined the financial pressure on the Palestinian Authority on Monday, when the Obama administration announced a review of America’s annual $440 million aid package to the Palestinians. As AP pointed out, once the Palestinian Authority apply any case against Israel to the International Criminal Court, US financial help to Palestine will cease immediately under American law.

Joining the ICC will give the Palestinian Authority new and powerful leverage to make Israel more compliant regarding withdrawal from the occupied territories.
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US senator introduces bill to cut Palestinian aid
Republican Senator Rand Paul introduced a bill on Wednesday that would immediately halt US aid to the Palestinians until they halt their effort to join the International Criminal Court to pursue war-crimes charges against Israel.
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http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4612706,00.html

Applicable?

CsDtKzi.gif



Deny me human rights and dignity if old.
 
M

Matt_

World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
Good
the reaction from America and Israel is pretty gross
whats the law behind aide ceasing immediately if Palestine pursue a claim against Israel?
 
S

Sho_Nuff82

Member
If the PA has any brains, they'll say they will only seek court proceedings for conflicts going forward, instead of trying to retroactively apply it to every conflict of the past 10 years. That way, Israel will not be able to claim they are being victimized or persecuted by the UN.
 
T

TatteredHat

Member
Well, it's a good thing, but the US and Israel are going to strongarm Palestine into compliance through financial retribution if they ever decide to pursue any form of action through the ICC. It's shameful, really.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
I still think a full membership in UNSC for statehood would have been better. At least Palestinians can have ICC issue warcrime investigations in Gaza.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
commedieu said:
Yep. But the Palestinians will be financially punished for pursuing allegations By America/Israel.
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Yeah IMO our continued support of Israel while they're expanding is pretty disgusting. It's still political suicide for any politician in the states to stand up to them though, so I have almost no hope for a change on that front any time soon.
 
womfalcs3

womfalcs3

Banned
The US fights a "war on terror", except of course if the victims are the Palestinians. In which case, it actually helps the perpetrators.
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
Matt_ said:
Good
the reaction from America and Israel is pretty gross
whats the law behind aide ceasing immediately if Palestine pursue a claim against Israel?
Click to expand...

Rand Paul finds any excuse to cut foreign aid, he hates the very concept. It's just a shout to his isolationist base. Pure campaigning.

Did the same thing with Egypt because "muslim brotherhood" and then when the military took over again it was "non-democratic states" yada yada.
 
C

commedieu

Banned
CrimzonSamurai said:
Rand Paul finds any excuse to cut foreign aid, he hates the very concept. It's just a shout to his isolationist base. Pure campaigning.

Did the same thing with Egypt because "muslim brotherhood" and then when the military took over again it was "non-democratic states" yada yada.
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Our government is stating their funding will be cancelled if they try it. Not just Rand Paul.
its in the conditions of the funding.

America is an asshole on this one.

Lets not paint this as some sentiment isolated to Rand Paul, please.

"....until they halt their effort to join the International Criminal Court to pursue war-crimes charges against Israel." This isn't about stopping all foreign aid. Its cutting foreign aid tied to joining the ICC.
 
T

TheRealTalker

Banned
regardless if people want them to be a state or not this will hopefully be a big step for Palestinian/Israeli policy


not only would they be able to put to court war crimes done to them but also if they too committed war crimes they can be accounted for them....hopefully making them take the diplomatic way towards their goal rather then by other means (even if some big powers try to prevent them)
 
M

Miles Quaritch

Member
As AP pointed out, once the Palestinian Authority apply any case against Israel to the International Criminal Court, US financial help to Palestine will cease immediately under American law.
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Wow, this is a law?
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
commedieu said:
Our government is stating their funding will be cancelled if they try it. Not just Rand Paul.
its in the conditions of the funding.

America is an asshole on this one.

Lets not paint this as some sentiment isolated to Rand Paul, please.

"....until they halt their effort to join the International Criminal Court to pursue war-crimes charges against Israel." This isn't about stopping all foreign aid. Its cutting foreign aid tied to joining the ICC.
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Missed that part. Fair enough.
 
C

commedieu

Banned
Miles Quaritch said:
Wow, this is a law?
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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/05/us-weighs-cutting-aid-to-palestinians-over-icc-move/

The Obama administration said Monday it was reviewing its annual $440 million aid package to the Palestinians because of their effort to join the International Criminal Court to pursue war-crimes charges against Israel.
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"We're deeply troubled by the Palestinian action," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters. She said joining the court "is entirely counterproductive and does nothing to further the aspirations of the Palestinian people for a sovereign and independent state. It badly damages the atmosphere with the very people with whom they ultimately need to make peace."

Under American law, any Palestinian case against Israel at the court would trigger an immediate cutoff of U.S. financial support. Membership itself doesn't automatically incur U.S. punishment.
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This is what America is doing everyone.
 
M

Matt_

World's #1 One Direction Fan: Everyone else in the room can see it, everyone else but you~~~
ZiZ

ZiZ

Member
I wonder if they'll actually benefit from it.

who's to say the ICC won't say "War crimes? what war crimes?"
 
D

devilhawk

Member
TheRealTalker said:
regardless if people want them to be a state or not this will hopefully be a big step for Palestinian/Israeli policy


not only would they be able to put to court war crimes done to them but also if they too committed war crimes they can be accounted for them....hopefully making them take the diplomatic way towards their goal rather then by other means (even if some big powers try to prevent them)
Click to expand...
I know that the ICC can not see cases pertaining to non-state actors. If Hamas classifies as such, that would be awfully convenient for Palestine. If this is the case, I don't blame Israel for being upset when the other side of the conflict has essentially outsourced their dirty work and are free from prosecution.

To be honest I don't know the rules of the ICC so if Palestine is responsible for Hamas then I think putting them into the ICC could be a good thing for the region. Both sides would then be culpable for their actions internationally.
 
C

commedieu

Banned
Fenderputty said:
Blame the American populace. They're the reason the politicians do this. If it was politically toxic to support Israel they wouldn't.
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Ill blame the populace, and I'll blame the businesses that run the nation that want good ties with Israel, the people actually running the country and lobbying politicians. If Americans had actual choice, then their vote would matter. In this country, there isn't any choice that hasn't already been vetted by political/business interests. Americans do need to start understanding how we are perceived, as we will be the vitcims of terrorism related to our governments actions.

American's didn't vote to go to war, didn't even get to see evidence. Americans didn't vote to all be spied on, we don't vote to give Israel 3 billion + a year. If we are playing a blame game, one of the participants at least needs to have the option to change things in their country.

We have a ruling class, and working bees. Our health and education is deteriorating, none of these things were from a democratic vote. It is our responsibility to ultimately deconstruct the government, and get a democratic process into play. I'll agree there. It seems that with protesting and general awareness of how bad our government is fucking us over, its slowly starting to happen.

Matt_ said:
I get that, but the wording makes it seem like there was already a caveat in the aid package to Palestine that prohibited any ICC claim, like an old law and not a new reaction to current circumstance. Seems odd that such a thing would have been written in the first place (utterly disgusting too)
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Odd is the wrong word. I'm sick of it. Our actions do nothing but get our soldiers killed over financial gain. Only to be ignored when they get back home.
 
D

Dai101

Banned
womfalcs3 said:
By the way, if this does happen, I hope other Muslim countries pitch in to cover for lost revenues.
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Yeah... won't happen. Saudi Arabia is too in bed with the US to even make a fuzz about what israel is doing. Those dollars for oil.

commedieu said:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/05/us-weighs-cutting-aid-to-palestinians-over-icc-move/

This is what America is doing everyone.
Click to expand...

Shocking, shocking i tell you!

DXB-KNIGHT said:
How can joining a court of law damage peace?
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American politics. Not really surprising.
 
D

DXB-KNIGHT

Member
Dai101 said:
Yeah... won't happen. Saudi Arabia is too in bed with the US to even make a fuzz about what israel is doing. Those dollars for oil.
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To the matter of fact I don't think Saudi and the other GCC will not step in, I don't know how much the rest of you know about Arabic culture (I'm an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being cutting aids. If you screw Palestine over in Arabia, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is support.
 
R

Rush_Khan

Member
Hopefully something actually comes out from this and justice is served for those who have lost loved ones during the occupation.
 
M

Madness

Member
Damn, the US comes off so bad with those statements. Supposedly the champion of democracy, rule of law, human rights, but God forbid if a country try to voluntarily join and be accepted by an overwhelming majority of the world's countries to join a court that helps with human rights. So hypocritical. They themselves aren't members because they don't want their own war crimes or leaders prosecuted. But they have no problem using the ICC to bring African, Middle Eastern, Eastern European or Latin American people to justice.
 
F

Fenderputty

Banned
commedieu said:
Ill blame the populace, and I'll blame the businesses that run the nation that want good ties with Israel, the people actually running the country and lobbying politicians. If Americans had actual choice, then their vote would matter. In this country, there isn't any choice that hasn't already been vetted by political/business interests. Americans do need to start understanding how we are perceived, as we will be the vitcims of terrorism related to our governments actions.

American's didn't vote to go to war, didn't even get to see evidence. Americans didn't vote to all be spied on, we don't vote to give Israel 3 billion + a year. If we are playing a blame game, one of the participants at least needs to have the option to change things in their country.

We have a ruling class, and working bees. Our health and education is deteriorating, none of these things were from a democratic vote. It is our responsibility to ultimately deconstruct the government, and get a democratic process into play. I'll agree there. It seems that with protesting and general awareness of how bad our government is fucking us over, its slowly starting to happen.
Click to expand...

While this is all true it has nothing to do with why our general public has a love affair with all things Israel.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
Fenderputty said:
So this opens up the possibility of war crimes for both sides correct?
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No. Israel is has not ratified the Rome Statute and does not recognise the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. It opens up the possibility of Palestinians alone being charged with crimes.
 
B

besada

Banned
Given that Israel isn't a signatory to the Rome Statute, and given that the U.S. won't allow the UNSC to do anything to Israel, this is going to turn out to be 90% PR and 10% a pain in the ass for a select group of Israeli officials who will have to curtail their travel to signatory states for fear of arrest.

Israel isn't going to turn anyone over to the ICC, and has no obligation to do so legally, as they aren't signatories. The U.S. is also not a signatory, and has no intention of being one, so it's not legally bound by the language requiring it to refrain from acts which would defeat the object or purpose of the statute.

It seems pretty likely the U.S. will stand with Israel on this, given its own opinion of the ICC, so I don't expect much to come from it other than some show trials whose conclusions Israel will ignore, and a possible UNSC action, which the U.S. will again veto.
 
P

Purkake4

Banned
besada said:
Given that Israel isn't a signatory to the Rome Statute, and given that the U.S. won't allow the UNSC to do anything to Israel, this is going to turn out to be 90% PR and 10% a pain in the ass for a select group of Israeli officials who will have to curtail their travel to signatory states for fear of arrest.

Israel isn't going to turn anyone over to the ICC, and has no obligation to do so legally, as they aren't signatories. The U.S. is also not a signatory, and has no intention of being one, so it's not legally bound by the language requiring it to refrain from acts which would defeat the object or purpose of the statute.

It seems pretty likely the U.S. will stand with Israel on this, given its own opinion of the ICC, so I don't expect much to come from it other than some show trials whose conclusions Israel will ignore, and a possible UNSC action, which the U.S. will again veto.
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Well, technically the US is a signatory, but withdrew its signature. Same effect, but a bit more embarrassing.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
besada said:
Given that Israel isn't a signatory to the Rome Statute, and given that the U.S. won't allow the UNSC to do anything to Israel, this is going to turn out to be 90% PR and 10% a pain in the ass for a select group of Israeli officials who will have to curtail their travel to signatory states for fear of arrest.

Israel isn't going to turn anyone over to the ICC, and has no obligation to do so legally, as they aren't signatories. The U.S. is also not a signatory, and has no intention of being one, so it's not legally bound by the language requiring it to refrain from acts which would defeat the object or purpose of the statute.

It seems pretty likely the U.S. will stand with Israel on this, given its own opinion of the ICC, so I don't expect much to come from it other than some show trials whose conclusions Israel will ignore, and a possible UNSC action, which the U.S. will again veto.
Click to expand...

Israeli officials won't even have to curtail travel. An individual can only be prosecuted by the ICC if they committed the crime within the jurisdiction of the ICC, or are a national of a state which is a signatory of the ICC. The only Israelis capable of being prosecuted will be those who commit crimes actually on whatever the ICC has settled upon as constituting the territory of the State of Palestine; in other words nobody of importance. Even then, they'll only be prosecuted if the Palestinian authorities can actually arrest them within Palestinian territory, of which there is a fat chance.
 
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