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UK General Election - 8th June 2017 |OT| - The Red Wedding

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The press has built up this image of May being Thatcher #2, especially the Tory press.

We'll see how well the campaign goes, but the Brexit topic is not going to be this small inconvenience for her and her and her government's record is really not very good.
 

PJV3

Member
The press has built up this image of May being Thatcher #2, especially the Tory press.

We'll see how well the campaign goes, but the Brexit topic is not going to be this small inconvenience for her and her and her government's record is really not very good.

So far it looks like she could go through the whole campaign saying virtually nothing beyond trust me and get almost half the country voting for her. And as you say the government has real problems on the domestic front. It's incredible really.
 
The press has built up this image of May being Thatcher #2, especially the Tory press.

We'll see how well the campaign goes, but the Brexit topic is not going to be this small inconvenience for her and her and her government's record is really not very good.

But... Her stance on Brexit is very popular?
 

Hazzuh

Member
Tories dumping the lock, McDonnell guaranteeing it. Isn't that the wrong way round? The lock is bullshit anyway.

Another great example of why the whole "Corbyn is so principled" thing is total BS. People like Owen Jones are supporting the triple lock in a desperate attempt to turn around Labour's pathetic support amongst retirees.

I know this is all totally unsurprising but it's just so infuriating considering Corbyn was elected by attacking every compromise the Labour party made for the last 30+ years. The 2017 manifesto is shaping up to be reheated Milibandism dressed up in hard-left rhetoric, which seems like the worst of both worlds.
 

theaface

Member
This has been her thing for a long time. I know most people don't watch Prime Minister's Questions, but 90-95% of the time she evades a tough question by talking about how bad things would be if the party of the person asking was in charge.

Exactly what I was going to say. She never gives a single meaningful answer to important questions on policy. She just throws a jab at Corbyn to the delight of her cronies who cackle and guffaw like zoo animals. It's a shame that A) Corbyn lets her off the hook so lightly and B) the media don't call her out on being vague, slippery and evasive.

But none of this is surprising. It's been like that for a long time. PMQs is a distilled look at the circus freak show that UK politics has become. The masses may look at May and think 'ministerial' in a boring-but-dependable, bit posh, British stiff upper lip sort of way, but it's all window dressing. Behind the apparent swagger of authority l see someone incredibly reactive to how they're perceived by their peers and the media, as well as an individual with a particularly skewed and cruel world view that shapes her policies.
 

PJV3

Member
Another great example of why the whole "Corbyn is so principled" thing is total BS. People like Owen Jones are supporting the triple lock in a desperate attempt to turn around Labour's pathetic support amongst retirees.

I agree with you but, the elderly are a conservative lot and the most active in the polling booths . It's back to the wanting opposition but not allowing it to happen thing again.
 

Maledict

Member
The press love her and the public have given her unqualified support, will not even consider voting labour. The country moans about the opposition but doesn't act like they want one.

Because Corbyn isn't running an opposition. He's utterly inept, as are the people surrounding him. Labour was beaten in their response to the announcement of the election by both the lib dems and the greens.

Like I said earlier, the press preys on weakness. And Corbyn is without a doubt the weakest, most inept leader of any party since the early 1980s.
 
I was gonna write that whatever makes it viable for three parties to have a chance of leading in Canada just ain't happening here but then I looked it up and it's gone back and forth between two parties, and liberals here swap out for the NPD there for 3rd a lot.

then you have a major regional power like we do though fair play to the liberals they're doing well in the quebec assembly right now.

two culturally similar countries in not so different politics shock shouldn't have been surprised, heh.
 

Maledict

Member
Any chance of the SNP losing some seats in Scotland?

Hopefully they don't wipe the Lib Dems and Labour out of their final seats at the very least. For that matter, the last Conservative seat too (yeah, yeah, but it's one seat and home of the Scottish Secretary).

There's a decent chance the SNP will wipe out labour and the lib dems but lose a couple of seats to the conservatives, which will make the conservatives the only other party from Scotland at Westminster... ;-)
 

Pancake Mix

Copied someone else's pancake recipe
There's a decent chance the SNP will wipe out labour and the lib dems but lose a couple of seats to the conservatives, which will make the conservatives the only other party from Scotland at Westminster... ;-)

I know it was close last time, but Shetland & Orkney not voting Lib Dem? Especially given how EU fishing regulations might affect them I think that seat is safe.

The most probable outcome

Hence the real reason why the SNP abstained from the vote. If an early election is of no benefit, I would have abstained or voted against too.
 

OmniOne

Member
Trying to get a better understanding of the differences between the Lib Dems and Labour. Anyone have a link to or a good overview of the differences? (is the British left split between two parties?)

Also, if say Lib Dems gain more seats again at the cost of the Conservatives or Labour, why wouldn't they just do a coalition with the Conservatives again?

I should also add that I'm American, so I admit a great deal of ignorance on U.K. politics but would like to understand.
 

Beefy

Member
Trying to get a better understanding of the differences between the Lib Dems and Labour. Anyone have a link to or a good overview of the differences? (is the British left split between two parties?)

Also, if say Lib Dems gain more seats again at the cost of the Conservatives or Labour, why wouldn't they just do a coalition with the Conservatives again?

Lib Dems are pro EU and want to revoke A50 , but have a dude in charge that is shady as fuck with LGBT+ rights.
 
Even the Sun turning on May? Well for today at least, judging by their front page.

E8jusyB.jpg


It's going to happen eventually, she's made too many promises she can't cash
 

jem0208

Member
Lib Dems are pro EU and want to revoke A50 , but have a dude in charge that is shady as fuck with LGBT+ rights.

Yeah, bolded is a load of rubbish.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jennie-rigg/tim-farron-lgbt-record_b_16095906.html

1. With one exception, Tim Farron voted fully in favour of same sex marriage. The one time he abstained? That was because he was trying to get an amendment passed on the Spousal Veto, a really nasty little clause which shafts trans people. Yep, that's right, even the time he abstained was because he was fighting for LGBT+ rights, not against them.

C9uRsKAXcAAUBcK.jpg
 

tomtom94

Member
Even the Sun turning on May? Well for today at least, judging by their front page.

Nah, they're not turning on her. They're threatening her because Murdoch knows full well he can swing an election and he wants compromises from her. When we get into the last two weeks they'll swing behind her.
 

Chocolate & Vanilla

Fuck Strawberry
Why is everywhere that he is then? Is it just shit being flung?


Yes. He was interviewed recently about being questioned constantly because he's notoriously Christian and so people assume he's anti LGBT and often try to twist his responses to fit that narrative. In that same interview he even says the current laws don't go far enough especially in regards to equality for Transgender.


Edit: the above is a grammatical mess but I can't be arsed to fix it because I'm a lazy liberal.
 

Beefy

Member
Yes. He was interviewed recently about being questioned constantly because he's notoriously Christian and so people assume he's anti LGBT and often try to twist his responses to fit that narrative. In that same interview he even says the current laws don't go far enough especially in regards to equality for Transgender.

Why don't they ask May as well? She scares me way more then Farron.
 
Why is everywhere that he is then? Is it just shit being flung?

His actual voting record and policy making is quite good, but he does sincerely hold personal religious beliefs that are quite frankly bigoted (he's a reverend). To his credit he doesn't allow this to cloud his judgement in practical terms, but he's a god botherer all the same.

Odd fact, Theresa May and Tim Farron stood against each other in my constituency.

93895_TimTheresa.png



this-is-what-theresa-may-was-like-in-1992-2-32053-1471872431-1_dblbig.jpg
 
Didn't Farron say on twitter a couple years back that homosexuality could be cured, and then he claimed he was hacked?

I mean, his actions speak that he's pro LGBT, in that he seems to have voted for more rights for LGBT people than he has against (looking at the public whpi website someone posted earlier, if it's accurate, he voted in favour ~73% of the time for more rights for LGBT, while much less than Corbyn at 96%, it's also more than May at 58%) and as they say, actions speak louder than words.
 

Shantom

Member
I mean, his actions speak that he's pro LGBT, in that he seems to have voted for more rights for LGBT people than he has against (looking at the public whpi website someone posted earlier, if it's accurate, he voted in favour ~73% of the time for more rights for LGBT, while much less than Corbyn at 96%, it's also more than May at 58%) and as they say, actions speak louder than words.

I'm sure that if Farron somehow ends up in government then he will put aside his personal beliefs and push for greater LGBT rights, and that's great. However I'd still feel odd voting for a party with a hardline Christian as leader.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Read that UKIP mess earlier. As well as being horrible, she can't write for shit. And that bit about the death penalty is just downright bizzarre.

Weird how there's some oddly liberal/left leaning stuff in it.
 

Jose92

[Membe
I believe if corbyn wants any chance in the coming general elections , he should campaign for staying in EU. It may back fire but it also may win the labour so many seats. People should not forget at least half of UK wants to stay in the EU.
 

Protome

Member
Read that UKIP mess earlier. As well as being horrible, she can't write for shit. And that bit about the death penalty is just downright bizzarre.

Weird how there's some oddly liberal/left leaning stuff in it.

Yeah, it reads as "I care about the world, just not the people on it. Also horses are lovely."
I don't know that liking horses is a left leaning stance but i liked it.
 

King_Moc

Banned
I believe if corbyn wants any chance in the coming general elections , he should campaign for staying in EU. It may back fire but it also may win the labour so many seats. People should not forget at least half of UK wants to stay in the EU.

But it seems much of Labour's working class base doesn't want that. Labour's voters are split on the subject, and it looks like it's the only party that has this problem.

This is the problem when your voters are a mix of working classes and liberals. The two don't actually see eye to eye.

Corbyn's between a rock and a hard place. and he's chosen to go with the majority decision.
 
I believe if corbyn wants any chance in the coming general elections , he should campaign for staying in EU. It may back fire but it also may win the labour so many seats. People should not forget at least half of UK wants to stay in the EU.

But where? Given how small the Lib Dems seat count is, for Labour to gain seats they really only have two main parties to target - the SNP and Tories. The SNP are already pro-EU so that policy won't help them there. So the question is are there enough Lab/Tory marginals currently held by the Conservatives where there was a majority voting remain?

I don't think there can be more than a handful of those.
 

Real Hero

Member
I believe if corbyn wants any chance in the coming general elections , he should campaign for staying in EU. It may back fire but it also may win the labour so many seats. People should not forget at least half of UK wants to stay in the EU.
It would be a terrible idea. Defying the will of the people etc
 

Jose92

[Membe
It would be a terrible idea. Defying the will of the people etc

Do not forget the referendum results were Leave 51.89% and Remain 48.11%, and i believe many leave voters are regretting their votes after they found out that the government has no drawn plan for brexit. Or he can campaign for another referendum to be made. And now with Scotland, wales, and northern Ireland wanting their independence. People may vote differently if they are given the chance.
 

King_Moc

Banned
Do not forget the referendum results were Leave 51.89% and Remain 48.11%, and i believe many leave voters are regretting their votes after they found out that the government has no drawn plan for brexit. Or he can campaign for another referendum to be made. And now with Scotland, wales, and northern Ireland wanting their independence. People may vote differently if they are given the chance.

Conversely, many remain voters think the result should be respected.
 
But that won't be before June 8th, which I assume is what Huw was talking about.

Yeah sort of - I mean that Brexit is going to be the issue and the main talking point of this campaign.

Labour don't want to talk about it.
The Tories want the entire Leave voting bloc to vote for them to secure Brexit, and the Remain bloc who believe that the issue is closed and want a competent government to make the best of it.
The Lib Dems are framing a lot of their domestic issues against Brexit, and also acting as the Remain party for Remoaners...
The nationalist parties are also going to be talking about it heavily.

So the weird thing is that the main opposition wants to avoid discussing the main issue, not that Brexit is not the main issue.

And Corbyn's route to victory is using the campaign as a route to reinventing himself - a lot of his activities are consumed by the public via secondary reporting, and the campaign will allow him to directly talk to the voter. But he can't do that via Brexit, as he is head of a party of make-the-best-of-leave. So he wants this to be about the Tories weak spot - their economic policy, their social and health policies...

So this entire campaign is wonky. Every party is working in the context of Brexit.

This is why the manifestos are going to be huge, but also the question of 'how badly does Corbyn do at the one thing he is supposed to be good at - directly appealing to people via big socialist campaigns.'.

But also 'how well does Farron do at keeping the Remain side of voters thinking about Brexit, rather than voters thinking that the issue is closed'. If Farron does well there, Corbyn will look horribly out of touch and the Tories will have to re-fight the referendum.

This is actually why I think May has miscalculated this election. She is calling it at a chaotic time in UK politics, and she does not really know what the issues are or how soft her 17% poll lead is.

My hunch is that the story of this campaign will be a collapse of the Labour vote share and a massive rise in the LD share. That is not because that is what I want. That is because I think that once the public has decided on the issues, those issues will be Brexit first, and then health/education/the economy. And that wrong-foots Labour badly.
 
There was literally this exact exchange in the last thread. I give you Crab:

Crab said:
This is my point. This forum doesn't seem to understand this: most people who voted remain say they want soft-Brexit. But what they understand to be soft-Brexit isn't what you understand to be soft-Brexit. They think soft-Brexit is: we stay in the single market, but don't have freedom of movement. That's a popular choice - but it is impossible.

When you start asking people: do you want to stay in the single market if it means freedom of movement, or leave fully, people overwhelmingly choose leave fully. That includes a large portion of Remainers.

"Hard Remainers" are about 20% of the electorate.

EDIT: 26%, to be precise. See page 9: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...4_Europe_W.pdf

Still 1/4er of the electorate is nothing to sneeze at, and the Lib Dems have plenty of ground to gain from them. Of course they're also losing some Leave voters at the same time, so the effect might not be pronounced enough to make huge gains in vote share. But regardless, they still have their old problem, the problem facing any third party without a strong regional base in UK politics - turning votes into seats.
 
But it seems much of Labour's working class base doesn't want that. Labour's voters are split on the subject, and it looks like it's the only party that has this problem.

This is the problem when your voters are a mix of working classes and liberals. The two don't actually see eye to eye.

Corbyn's between a rock and a hard place. and he's chosen to go with the majority decision.

He is and always has been a brexiter

1. Stronger In gave Labour a clear run at grabbing media headlines. This was rejected in various ways.
2. Milne would sit on campaign materials and speeches until they were rendered useless for "reasons".
3. After Cameron's deal, Corbyn refused to acknowledge the urgency of a referendum, hurrying any discussions among the NEC along and not working on anything. He constantly refused to meet to discuss strategy.
4. Milne and Fisher were highly obstructive.
5. A script was developed early on talking up EU protections on workers rights and the environment. Corbyn never used it.
6. Teagate, as outlined above.
7. Corbyn and McDonnell ignored core script and pursued "Remain and Reform" line, which highlighted everything wrong with EU. The line polled terribly with voters but was not dropped.
8. Corbyn never expressed direct strong support for EU. Ever.
9. While he continued his biweekly Facebook videos for the faithful, not one discussed Europe.
10. The official Corbyn response to Cameron's deal was rewritten by Milne and Fisher over 36 hours. "Journalists regarded it as one of the most incoherent statements by a party leader on a major occasion that they could remember." The fella who wrote the original draft response left Corbyn's office shortly after.
11. Attention was devoted to the local elections in May so they had no idea what their voters felt about Europe.
12. Internecine warfare between people jockeying for Corbyn's ear was more important than developing a Remain campaign.
13. Complaints Stronger In meetings were being held too early. 9am meetings were seen as a way of trying to freeze Corbyn out of matters :picard: Regardless of the time, no one from Corbyn's office would then dial into the calls.
14. Will Straw, one of Stronger In's most senior figures, had one meeting with Corbyn during the whole campaign.
15. Milne banned shadow cabinet from taking part in Stronger In events.
16. A lot of the PLP was sidetracked and distracted as they expected a leadership challenge post vote.
17. Labour battle bus launch press release had no quotes from
Corbyn as he refused to sign off on them. Corbyn then barely used it for campaigning and McDonnell never did.
18. Corbyn's "campaigning" amounted to late night rallies in the arsehole of nowhere with the faithful. He refused to do the usual cycle of pre-briefings, Today interview and speeches, like normal politicians.
19. What he did suggest was traveling to Turkey to talk up the rights of EU migrants out there. This was only shelved at the last minute.
20. Debacle over the wording of an MPs' letter saying it was united in remaining in the EU. Milne proposed a full rewording from his holiday home in Portugal, Corbyn was passive to concerns from Alan Johnson that the entire PLP would need to see a redrafting before signing it again and this was fucking impossible on a Saturday afternoon. In the end, the letter never made the newspapers but a row over its drafting did.
21. McDonnell refused to talk up economic fears over Brexit and instead criticised Project Fear. He declined appearing on Today because he felt he 'didn't have much to say' about Brexit.
22. Alan Johnson was a bit flakey and some Labour In staffers out of their depth.
23. Complete refusal to do anything with Blair and Brown, whether it was joint letters or events.
 
Theresa May refuses to spell out Tory tax policy

The Independent said:
Asked again, she said: ”What I'm saying is that when people come to vote they will have a choice between two parties: between the strong and stable leadership that will be in the national interest doing the right thing for Britain under the Conservatives or a weak and unstable coalition of chaos led by Jeremy Corbyn.

”A Conservative party who has always been and will continue to be a lower tax party or a Labour party whose natural instinct is always to raise taxes."

By cutting taxes they mean cutting public services, privatising it all, and financially benefitting from the mess while you're unable to afford basic health care.

Also, notice how she evades questions and attacks the opposition. Very Trump like. If the tories have a plan then it doesn't benefit you at all which is why they won't talk about it.
 

D4Danger

Unconfirmed Member
You can see why she doesn't want to do live debates. It's pathetic that she can't even begin to answer questions without resorting to that meaningless sound bite every time.
 
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