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[Tak3n]

Interesting one this one, as David Cameron managed to get the EU to agree to a 7 year ban, but that was rejected at the referendum, these measures are reported to go a lot further, and include a permanent ban on non UK nationals claiming benefits...

Should be clear that the Government are claiming no decision has been finalised, and this leak is just that, a leak. However it could be possible that this could be a way to stay in single market.....whether the EU would accept a broad ban against their citizens is unclear

THERESA MAY is examining plans for a sweeping crackdown on benefit claims by EU migrants in a fresh attempt to cut the numbers coming to Britain.

The Prime Minister has asked officials to look again at curbs to prevent new arrivals from EU nations receiving tax credits and other job-related state support.

Her move would revive a proposal put forward by David Cameron in his botched effort to negotiate a new EU membership deal for Britain.

The new proposals are understood to go much further and would be permanently in place.

Officials hope the benefits curb would ease pressure on the Treasury by cutting the tax credit bill and reducing some of the financial incentive for migrant workers to come to the UK.

Downing Street sources say no formal proposals have been drawn up yet, but the measure has been discussed in the context of a sweeping overhaul of the Government.

Figures from the Oxford-based Migration Observatory show 316,000 out of more than two million EU citizens in the UK receive in-work benefits including Income Support. HM Revenue and Customs has estimated that the total may be closer to 500,000.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ackdown-EU-benefit-claims-cut-migrant-numbers

 

[hodgy100]

I dont understand how you go from reducing the benefits EU migrants get to staying in the single market?

also I believe if you pay into the system you should get stuff out of it. are the migrants taxes also going to be cut?

 

[Acorn]

So are they going to get a tax cut? Ha.

 

[Tak3n]

I dont understand how you go from reducing the benefits EU migrants get to staying in the single market?

also I believe if you pay into the system you should get stuff out of it. are the migrants taxes also going to be cut?

That is just me thinking out loud, with regards to a compromise for the 52%, Cameron came under sever criticism for only getting a 7 year agreement, if I recall

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Still don't see why popping out of a vagina in the UK means you deserve benefits but having done so on the other side of the channel doesn't. I bet a 7 year working on benefits for white Brits would have gone down great.

 

[TatteredHat]

Just more EU expat bullying from the UK Gov, I'm not even surprised anymore.

The UK staying in the single market if they leave the EU is a dream, it's not something the EU is ever going to compromise on as it would further fracture the EU.

 

[Tak3n]

Still don't see why popping out of a vagina in the UK means you deserve benefits but having done so on the other side of the channel doesn't. I bet a 7 year working on benefits for white Brits would have gone down great.

Works for the Royal Family so we are bought up on a rhetoric of realising the tube of the Vagina is all important

 

[SmartBase]

I love how welfare payments are called "benefits" over there, very telling.

 

[Maledict]

This will have zero impact on the single market negotiations. We have to face up to the fact that a bunch of idiots and morons has decided to fuck over the country for the forseeable future.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

I think the issue is that benefits are there to support people on low incomes, but there are EU migrant workers using this to supplement their wages without ever getting to a pay grade that they would no longer require the benefits. I assume benefits also covers housing, education and heathcare. It's probably hard to get a real read on the situation due to the polarizing nature of the issue.

 

[RetroDLC]

I wouldn't expect benefits in a country I'd travel to for work, as I'd be working. If this keeps us in the EU with free movement and single market access, do it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

whether the EU would accept a broad ban against their citizens is unclear

Good luck with that. Why would the EU change its stance on that?

And aren't these benefits for people working there. Why would they be different based on where you come from, as long as you do the same job?

 

[hodgy100]

That is just me thinking out loud, with regards to a compromise for the 52%, Cameron came under severe criticism for only getting a 7 year agreement, if I recall

So you propose that we keep freedom of movement, stay in the single market, lose power in the EU parliament and continue to make payments to the EU but we can deny immigrants benefits?

i feel like this is a manifestation of multiple problems the UK has in its systems and culture:

#1 why is the government subsidizing jobs? because they dont pay enough to live on? So what's the point in the jobs existing? why not just enforce that employers pay an amount that is actually livable on?

2# the culture that we live to work rather than work to live. my dad was disgusted when i said i wouldn't blame someone from quitting their full time job if they would have a better quality of life on benefits. living on benefits isn't a rosy life unless you abuse child benefits but then its difficult to justify punishing the children for the misdeeds of the parents. so when living on benefits gives you a better life than working i think we really have to question what the fuck is wrong with lower skilled jobs and address that issues instead. herding people into jobs just so they have a job feels counterproductive if it reduces your quality of life.

 

[Beefy]

I love how welfare payments are called "benefits" over there, very telling.

Yep! I get £70 a week. It goes very far.

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Yep! I get £70 a week. It goes very far.

What else do you get? £70 a week isn't the whole story.

 

[hodgy100]

Yep! I get £70 a week. It goes very far.

your rent / bills / food / other costs have to go out of that? ouch if so! £280 a month isn't a lot :S

 

[runningjoke]

Watch all of this vanish once the negotiations with the EU start

 

[Izuna]

This is disgusting...

 

[Orbis]

I wouldn't expect benefits in a country I'd travel to for work, as I'd be working.

The problem I see is a permanent ban isn't really fair. I agree that if you move to a country (outside of refugee situations), you should be able to get by without welfare payments. But once you've paid into the system for a few years, why not? If someone moves to the UK, works for 5 years (David Cameron managed to get a deal with 7 years), then becomes disabled, I would say they should absolutely be able to claim welfare here.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Still don't see why popping out of a vagina in the UK means you deserve benefits but having done so on the other side of the channel doesn't. I bet a 7 year working on benefits for white Brits would have gone down great.

What about people born by cesarean section? This is very common in France for example.

 

[KurtSloane]

I see no issue with this .... unemployed people coming here to get welfare shoukd be banned out right.


If you work here and contribute, you shoukd get benefit in line with how much contributions you paid ..... when that runs out, no more.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I have spoken to a couple of people who voted for the Brexit. I have received a wide range responses, but the one thing that is almost always shared is that migrants are taking advantage of the system.

I am sure there are, but I am way more sure that there are far more British people abusing the system than migrants. Migrants are a problem, if they weren't we wouldn't have the Calais jungle. However migrants are a really easy scapegoat.

I've spoken to people about this before, if almost anything goes wrong, migrants legal or otherwise are blamed. Because it's easy. It's not easy to say we are at fault. Not them. WE.

If people are cheating the system, maybe you need to find out why. There are always going to be people who will abuse the system. However I bet a lot more are people who have no choice. Maybe improve the minimum wage, build more homes, stricter laws of vacant housing, invest in infrastructure. Maybe if you did that, there wouldn't be a problem. We have not been held back by Europe, we have been moving forward together. We may have been helping more than others, but we have gained a lot out of this.

 

[Nivash]

Sounds like a pretty blatant attempt at turning non-UK residents into second-class citizen, if you ask me. It's probably meant to incentivise them leaving the UK altogether too.

Like someone said, it's deeply unfair to have them keep paying the same tax rate but get deprived of basic social services. It's nothing but exploitation to be honest.

 

[KurtSloane]

I have spoken to a couple of people who voted for the Brexit. I have received a wide range responses, but the one thing that is almost always shared is that migrants are taking advantage of the system.

I am sure there are, but I am way more sure that there are far more British people abusing the system than migrants. Migrants are a problem, if they weren't we wouldn't have the Calais jungle. However migrants are a really easy scapegoat.

I've spoken to people about this before, if almost anything goes wrong, migrants legal or otherwise are blamed. Because it's easy. It's not easy to say we are at fault. Not them. WE.

If people are cheating the system, maybe you need to find out why. There are always going to be people who will abuse the system. However I bet a lot more are people who have no choice. Maybe improve the minimum wage, build more homes, stricter laws of vacant housing, invest in infrastructure. Maybe if you did that, there wouldn't be a problem. We have not been held back by Europe, we have been moving forward together. We may have been helping more than others, but we have gained a lot out of this.

Anyone abusing welfare should be targetted, anyone coming here just to get on welfare should be blocked.

Let them figure a way to get by where they currently are, if things in Eurooe are so great then the EU should help them where they currently reside instead of the EU being allowed to be used as a shopping market where you choose the best place to go for free things.

 

[CyclopsRock]

your rent / bills / food / other costs have to go out of that? ouch if so! £280 a month isn't a lot :S

That's just "Jobseekers Allowance", which is a benefit received for... Seeking a job. There are many other benefits available depending on your income and location. So the largest benefit given in terms of money spent (if we don't include public pensions) is housing benefit, which is paid to people with and without jobs who can't afford private rent costs but when the council has no local housing itself to house people in. There are benefits you get if you have children, if you have disabilities, if you work but earn below a certain amount etc. Typically - not always but usually - if someone is getting £70 a week and that's all it's because they're living somewhere where they don't personally contribute to the rent, IE with parebts, family, a partner etc .

 

[Orbis]

If you work here and contribute, you shoukd get benefit in line with how much contributions you paid ..... when that runs out, no more.

I disagree. You can't tally up contributions and say what people are entitled to using that 'fund' because that favours those who have paid more tax & NI. Thus higher earners would be favoured. We don't operate that system on our own citizens so we shouldn't on others. If someone has contributed tax & NI here for say, 5 years, then I see no reason why they shouldn't have full, unrestricted access to the welfare system.

 

[SuperBowser]

So what happens when you abruptly stop all these people's benefits? Will they: have a roof on their head? Afford food? Look after their kids? Manage their mental health? Manage their physical health?

I'm skeptical how much money will actually be saved (even if a single bill of a single department is reduced).

 

[Charles Brandon]

I think the issue is that benefits are there to support people on low incomes, but there are EU migrant workers using this to supplement their wages without ever getting to a pay grade that they would no longer require the benefits. I assume benefits also covers housing, education and heathcare. It's probably hard to get a real read on the situation due to the polarizing nature of the issue.

education (up to university level) and healthcare are free for everyone and are not really part of the benefits system. Housing is part of it though and has always been a source of resentment.

 

[KurtSloane]

I disagree. You can't tally up contributions and say what people are entitled to using that 'fund' because that favours those who have paid more tax & NI. Thus higher earners would be favoured. We don't operate that system on our own citizens so we shouldn't on others. If someone has contributed tax & NI here for say, 5 years, then I see no reason why they shouldn't have full, unrestricted access to the welfare system.

Contribution based welfare does exist .. and these people are not citizens, by default they should have less entitlements.

 

[uncleniccius]

Contribution based welfare does exist .. and these people are not citizens, by default they should have less entitlements.

Even if they have lived and worked in the UK for ten years and brought up children in this country?

 

[excowboy]

So 15-25% of EU migrants claim in work benefits. As someone who recently started receiving tax credits they are a bitch to apply for and you need to keep HMRC informed of any changes in your circumstance that might affect them i.e. they are not easy to claim and are only awarded to those who need them. Bearing in mind the criticism that they actually subsidise low paid jobs, which we need economic migrants to do, and that I understand the DWP loses twice as much money to administrative error as to fraud, then this is just the sort of shitty policy making we can expect from Theresa May. Worse: it'll win votes.

 

[TimmmV]

Contribution based welfare does exist .. and these people are not citizens, by default they should have less entitlements.

Why should this be the default? If a person is settled in a country and paying taxes then they should have every right to access the welfare a country provides to its "native" taxpayers

 

[Maledict]

I see no issue with this .... unemployed people coming here to get welfare shoukd be banned out right.


If you work here and contribute, you shoukd get benefit in line with how much contributions you paid ..... when that runs out, no more.

Given that the same doesn't apply to UK citizens at all, why do you think that?

And that we have literally millions of people living in Europe, many of whom receive benefits from the EU country they are in?

I mean, if we are going full on survival of the fittest then lets go the whole hog. You only get out what you pay in (because fuck helping anyone else).

 

[CyclopsRock]

#1 why is the government subsidizing jobs? because they dont pay enough to live on? So what's the point in the jobs existing? why not just enforce that employers pay an amount that is actually livable on?

Well part of this is due to the massively varying cost of living across the country. The minimum wage is the same everywhere, but rent - both for businesses and people - is higher in large cities, especially in London. As such you end up in a situation where a shop or cafe will have staff who need to earn more to live, and yet for the business everything is more expensive too. Higher footfall potentially means higher revenue but not always, given the large amount of competition. The benefit to these jobs existing, even if they are subsidised, is that this is an infinitely better position than them not existing. The question, then, is how many would go away were that net removed vs how many would remain with higher wages. You'd need to be pretty confident of the answer, I think, to remove that safety net.

 

[KurtSloane]

Why should this be the default? If a person is settled in a country and paying taxes then they should have every right to access the welfare a country provides to its "native" taxpayers

Citizens should have more rights and benefits than immigrants.

 

[ExtremePopcorn]

Figures from the Oxford-based Migration Observatory show 316,000 out of more than two million EU citizens in the UK receive in-work benefits including Income Support. HM Revenue and Customs has estimated that the total may be closer to 500,000.

Removing the EU workers will not remove this cost, if you replace the EU workers with a British worker they will still claim exactly the same in-work benefits. That's if you can find enough British workers to fill the jobs.

 

[hodgy100]

Well part of this is due to the massively varying cost of living across the country. The minimum wage is the same everywhere, but rent - both for businesses and people - is higher in large cities, especially in London. As such you end up in a situation where a shop or cafe will have staff who need to earn more to live, and yet for the business everything is more expensive too. Higher footfall potentially means higher revenue but not always, given the large amount of competition. The benefit to these jobs existing, even if they are subsidised, is that this is an infinitely better position than them not existing. The question, then, is how many would go away were that net removed vs how many would remain with higher wages. You'd need to be pretty confident of the answer, I think, to remove that safety net.

ahh that makes sense. is it not viable to have a variable minimum wage based off the average cost of living in an area? it could be done on a per county level. though i see how that could be difficult to do would someone living in nottingham but commuting to derby get paid the derby rate or the nottingham rate?

Removing the EU workers will not remove this cost, if you replace the EU workers with a British worker they will still claim exactly the same in-work benefits. That's if you can find enough British workers to fill the jobs.

thats whats daft about these things isnt it.

Citizens should have more rights and benefits than immigrants.

if you pay into something you deserve something out of it.

 

[Beefy]

your rent / bills / food / other costs have to go out of that? ouch if so! £280 a month isn't a lot :S

What else do you get? £70 a week isn't the whole story.

I live with my parents as I have no other choice. I tried getting housing benefits etc but was declined because they saw I had a roof over my head (I am 24). I pay my parents rent (£140 a month) due to them not being that well off themselves (my dad is the only worker and is paid under £30k before tax with no benefits).

I have to pay for a taxi once a week to get me to my job centre so I can get my benefits. Due to a health condition I can't take public transport (bus) and the job centre will not pay for taxis. So that means I have to pay out between £40-£60 a month on taxis. So in a good week after other costs etc I could have around £20 max to spend on myself a week. When I say spend on myself I don't mean just luxuries.

So I am stuck living with my parents because I have no means of moving out or trying to better my life.

 

[KurtSloane]

Given that the same doesn't apply to UK citizens at all, why do you think that?

And that we have literally millions of people living in Europe, many of whom receive benefits from the EU country they are in?

I mean, if we are going full on survival of the fittest then lets go the whole hog. You only get out what you pay in (because fuck helping anyone else).

And many EU states have benefit restrictions for EU migrants, Germany has a number of restrictions on who can claim and cant claim welfare.


Its not survival of the fittest to the nth degree, it is looking after your own before others ..... charity is a luxury.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

Dail Mail why am I no...oh wait it's the Daily Express. Well actually the Daily Mail published an article yesterday headlined:
"Theresa May WILL stop EU migrants from claiming benefits under new post-Brexit plan"
And the daily mail source is The Times so probably isn't fake. What is up with Theresa May? 2020 election and post brexit plans. Why don't you do Brexit first? (whatever that means) Oh wait you just delayed it further by being hostile to Sir Ivan Rogers who was only telling you the fucking truth which isn't what you wanted to hear.

I know people love the justice side of war on benefit fraud, health tourism (real mountain out of a molehill this one, equivalent to "I know how to save Nintendo" threads on GAF) etc but they are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to costs for the government (like a poster said above more money is spent on administrate errors than is lost via fraud).

 

[Beefy]

That's just "Jobseekers Allowance", which is a benefit received for... Seeking a job. There are many other benefits available depending on your income and location. So the largest benefit given in terms of money spent (if we don't include public pensions) is housing benefit, which is paid to people with and without jobs who can't afford private rent costs but when the council has no local housing itself to house people in. There are benefits you get if you have children, if you have disabilities, if you work but earn below a certain amount etc. Typically - not always but usually - if someone is getting £70 a week and that's all it's because they're living somewhere where they don't personally contribute to the rent, IE with parebts, family, a partner etc .

Nope it's not just jobseeker allowance. I am too ill to work a standard job.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Why should this be the default? If a person is settled in a country and paying taxes then they should have every right to access the welfare a country provides to its "native" taxpayers

I don't wanna speak on behalf of someone else, but I suspect they wouldn't consider "settled with a job and paying taxes" to be a default position for a migrant, either; That's something that you acquire over time and my suspicion is that they'd see the benefits acquired over time too. The default position of a migrant is, naturally, one of having contributed nothing (since you can't contribute til you actually get here).

Given that the same doesn't apply to UK citizens at all, why do you think that?

And that we have literally millions of people living in Europe, many of whom receive benefits from the EU country they are in?

I mean, if we are going full on survival of the fittest then lets go the whole hog. You only get out what you pay in (because fuck helping anyone else).

I agree and I don't think the point that I'm about to make is particularly material, but I strongly suspect that this isn't much the case. Given our shitty language education, I suspect that the majority of Brits living in other EU countries do have jobs since most wouldn't last five minutes without one, and all those people living on the Costa del Sol tend to be relatively wealthy retirees whose main cost to their host nation - healthcare - is charged back to the NHS in the UK. Total finger in the air situation, but I don't think many would move to Belgium with no job on the off chance of landing their dream gig of making chocolate whilst living it up in the exciting metropolis that is Bruges.

 

[Norwegian_Imposter]

As a brit who lives in Norway and before that the US I honestly hate people saying that someone who is in a similar situation as me in the UK would not get any benefits is disgusting. The US was similar to that and the stress and untold fear of losing my job affected my health.

Here the social safety net and paternity leave etc that is available to ANYONE WHO PAYS TAXES is not a perk its part of the reasons WE PAY TAXES! I hate the Fuck you got mine attitude that humans have.

 

[Maledict]

And many EU states have benefit restrictions for EU migrants, Germany has a number of restrictions on who can claim and cant claim welfare.


Its not survival of the fittest to the nth degree, it is looking after your own before others ..... charity is a luxury.

It's not charity. There is a reason we have a welfare state, and it's not because we all like holding hands and being nice.

And a lot of these benefits are in work benefits. they are supplementing existing wages. Whoever is in that job is getting the beneft because it's needed. And are you seriously suggesting removing housing benefit from people living in London in low paying jobs?

That's one thing that really irritates me. Fucking brexiters moaning about immigrants when the people who actually live with large levels of immigration want to stay in the EU.

 

[Nivash]

So 15-25% of EU migrants claim in work benefits. As someone who recently started receiving tax credits they are a bitch to apply for and you need to keep HMRC informed of any changes in your circumstance that might affect them i.e. they are not easy to claim and are only awarded to those who need them. Bearing in mind the criticism that they actually subsidise low paid jobs, which we need economic migrants to do, and that I understand the DWP loses twice as much money to administrative error as to fraud, then this is just the sort of shitty policy making we can expect from Theresa May. Worse: it'll win votes.

To add to this: most of the benefits are tax credits, not welfare. Only about 4 % are claiming out of work benefits.

https://www.google.se/amp/s/amp.the...news-for-uk-economy?client=ms-android-samsung

Oh, and EU immigrants are net contributors as a group, they're basically subsidising the living standards of everyone else in the UK. The government is trying to imply that they're protecting the country when what they're actually doing is exploiting immigrants even harder while simultaneously risking a backfire. If this makes it less attractive for EU immigrants to work in the UK, the UK can very well stand to lose the most.

 

[Silver Arrows]

That's one thing that really irritates me. Fucking brexiters moaning about immigrants when the people who actually live with large levels of immigration want to stay in the EU.

That's what I'm getting from KurtSloane's posts in this thread. A mixture of 'fuck you, got mine' and 'fuck immigrants'

 

[Maledict]

Total finger in the air situation, but I don't think many would move to Belgium with no job on the off chance of landing their dream gig of making chocolate whilst living it up in the exciting metropolis that is Bruges.

Fuck you for killing my dream!

 

[ExtremePopcorn]

And many EU states have benefit restrictions for EU migrants, Germany has a number of restrictions on who can claim and cant claim welfare.


Its not survival of the fittest to the nth degree, it is looking after your own before others ..... charity is a luxury.

It's not charity, it's allowing workers to live while doing jobs that do not pay enough to do so otherwise.

If you kicked out every EU worker tomorrow and replaced them in every job they did with a British worker, you'd be paying exactly the same amount out.

 

[hodgy100]

I live with my parents as I have no other choice. I tried getting housing benefits etc but was declined because they saw I had a roof over my head (I am 24). I pay my parents rent (£140 a month) due to them not being that well off themselves (my dad is the only worker and is paid under £30k before tax with no benefits).

I have to pay for a taxi once a week to get me to my job centre so I can get my benefits. Due to a health condition I can't take public transport (bus) and the job centre will not pay for taxis. So that means I have to pay out between £40-£60 a month on taxis. So in a good week after other costs etc I could have around £20 max to spend on myself a week. When I say spend on myself I don't mean just luxuries.

So I am stuck living with my parents because I have no means of moving out or trying to better my life.

yup this sounds like the UK benefits system. All the while people like you are demonised for being unable to better yourself at no fault of your own. and i assume you can't get disability because the powers that be deem you "healthy enough" despite you saying otherwise? Doctors should really be dictating who gets disability allowance, not a 3rd party :/

 

[King_Moc]

And aren't these benefits for people working there. Why would they be different based on where you come from, as long as you do the same job?

A lot of racists out there. And people who've been bathing in the diarrhoea of Murdoch and Rothmere's rags.

As a brit who lives in Norway and before that the US I honestly hate people saying that someone who is in a similar situation as me in the UK would not get any benefits is disgusting. The US was similar to that and the stress and untold fear of losing my job affected my health.

Here the social safety net and paternity leave etc that is available to ANYONE WHO PAYS TAXES is not a perk its part of the reasons WE PAY TAXES! I hate the Fuck you got mine attitude that humans have.

Agreed. You pay into the system, you should get out of the system. Same as everyone else.