But the suggestion to push out EU citizens will come up likely, as they are still rumbling about it. But certainly, UK citizens have nothing to worry about. They will be allowed to stay.
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UK Government: discussion on permanent ban for EU residents claiming benefits
- Thread starter Tak3n
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But the suggestion to push out EU citizens will come up likely, as they are still rumbling about it. But certainly, UK citizens have nothing to worry about. They will be allowed to stay.
No one will get pushed anywhere, it doesn't make any sense to do that.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Doesn't make any sense to leave the single market and that's still something that might happen.
We shouldn't think in terms of what makes sense, we should in terms of what will appease the 52% and keep them on May's side for the G.E
show me your skeleton
Member
glad to see we're still demonising the out of work. going to be fun when automation kicks in and we're all unemployed.
i'll wait for the inevitable 'there's loads of jobs, just re-train as a neural network engineer!' dreamcastmaster post.
i'll wait for the inevitable 'there's loads of jobs, just re-train as a neural network engineer!' dreamcastmaster post.
How do you justify this exactly ?
As long as the UK does the same (free movement for EU citizens coming to the UK), sure. Doesn't seem likely considering their whole campaign was about stopping immigration.
I'm hoping EU go all in on the brain drain of the UK. Make it easy for young skilled workers to leave the crumbling husk of the UK and we definitely will.
QuicheFontaine
Member
My wife is non-EEA, and "NO PUBLIC FUNDS" is printed directly on her residence permit.
One thing that I've never understood is that if you are someone thinking of moving to another EU to abuse the system why would you move to the UK? There are other EU countries that have more generous social systems like eg. Sweden.
The Maverick
Member
This thread has shown me that the UK is currently crazier than I imagined. A lot of these threads have devolved into immigrant bashing and us v. them mentality. It's insane.
I hope the EU gives the UK a thorough thrashing to set an example. I feel bad for everyone who didn't want this.
I hope the EU gives the UK a thorough thrashing to set an example. I feel bad for everyone who didn't want this.
Because generally speaking (and despite some problems) the UK is still a nice place to live. We also speak English, and have probably have decent sized communities of most foreign groups for a person coming here to fit in with.
Which is why its such a shame that leavers seem perfectly happy to fuck everything up so much that immigrants no longer even want to come here anymore, and the Tories are perfectly happy to do that if it means they still have control of everything
The Hamburglar
Banned
I worded it wrong. I meant if they were new arrivals. If someone worked then needed some support few years down the line, why not?
Housing and child tax benefits are the problem.
CyclopsRock
Member
Almost everyone has a "pathway to residency" now, it's just not a case of simply moving as it is right now with the EU. I know plenty of Americans and Aussies and Indians and Chinese and Bangladeshi and Kiwi and Egyptian and and and people. I don't see why the EU would be any different.
Okay ? I'm talking about the proposed "EU citizenship" that would be automatically granted to all brits, allowing them to freely travel, work, etc. in Europe.
Prime crotch
Banned
How? They're there for a reason, if they're being abused is a different discussion from outright banning access to them.
As much as I was a remainer, this is absolutely not the way to proceed.
Hoping they maintain and develop the EU by 'thrashing' us to put the fear of God into other countries who decide to go up against them and walk - not the way to rule (and believe me, the U.K fucked up with their handling of this)
Besides which - a firm but fair approach from the EU should be enough to learn a wider audience since the UK Government is so utterly inept. The consequences of a firm but fair approach already seem to be pretty fucking damning.
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree. If the repercussions of us simply leaving aren't sufficiently bad to deter other countries, then I don't think the EU is doing anyone any favours by artificially trying to decrease the quality of life of the people in the UK.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
This is impossible.
Any restriction on EU citizens should be reciprocated on UK citizens in EU states. No way 27 countries are going to let that happen, nor should they.
I doubt it happens but it is/was being considered by the european parliament, I'm not getting this out of nowhere and it's what I was answering to in the first place.
The Friendly Monster
Member
And here we see the setup of the narrative that when the UK is failing outside of the EU then everything is still the EU's fault.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
This is not the right answer, but if you're going to have open borders and free travel, something has to be done about benefit tourism, otherwise the states with the most generous welfare/benefit system will see the greatest migration and have to bear the greatest share of the costs, we've seen this with the Calais camp inhabitants and the "UK or bust" issues that occured there.
The only real solution is a single welfare system for the whole of the EU, which is impossible without fiscal and political union, which isn't going to happen any time soon.
So what is the answer?, because I can honestly state, that should Scotland, for instance, implement Universal Basic Income, our whole family would move there in a heartbeat, the Calais 'jungle' camps would be replaced with the Carlisle camps and the whole problem just shifts elsewhere.
So again, other than a single EU-wide welfare system, how do you stop welfare / benefit tourism?
The only real solution is a single welfare system for the whole of the EU, which is impossible without fiscal and political union, which isn't going to happen any time soon.
So what is the answer?, because I can honestly state, that should Scotland, for instance, implement Universal Basic Income, our whole family would move there in a heartbeat, the Calais 'jungle' camps would be replaced with the Carlisle camps and the whole problem just shifts elsewhere.
So again, other than a single EU-wide welfare system, how do you stop welfare / benefit tourism?
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Welfare money spent inside a country? As a person who pays tax, I don't mind, that is what tax is partially there for. The money in the welfare system isnt that much, and those who are on benefit tend to spend all of it to sustain themselves, this means grocery shopping and other things, boosting local economy.
If the money is kept inside the country, what is the issue with welfare? A lot of folks seem to have a problem with the idea of welfare itself. That is until they themselves become disabled or otherwise unable to work.
As for the money that is sent abroad, exactly how much is that?
People talk about the benefit burden, how much money is in welfare? Explain how this is a burden on the taxpayer more than other endeavours of the government?
If the money is kept inside the country, what is the issue with welfare? A lot of folks seem to have a problem with the idea of welfare itself. That is until they themselves become disabled or otherwise unable to work.
As for the money that is sent abroad, exactly how much is that?
People talk about the benefit burden, how much money is in welfare? Explain how this is a burden on the taxpayer more than other endeavours of the government?
Blackthorn
"hello?" "this is vagina"
I'm sure the Tory government will reinvest every penny saved into the pulblic services they've been viciously scrapping and selling.
The UK has no where near the most generous welfare settlement in the EU, it's hardly even midtier (although the NHS being so straightforward to access is probably attractive, it's free in say France but is means tested on income which means paperwork). The main reason for the UK or bust at Calais is employment opportunities, language and existing family or social networks. The UK welfare state isn't really that special or that good, there's a bit more for families of asylum seekers in the UK due to the way the benefit for children is calculated but for adult individuals with no children they get about £36.95 a week in the UK compared to €80.15 a week in France.
CyclopsRock
Member
Where do you get that from? You're missing my "if" from there. I'm saying that "pour encourager les autres" as a modus operandi for the EU - ie stiff the UK as much as we can so that other countries will fear leaving the EU - isn't a good approach, because if you have to artificially increase the pain suffered by a country leaving (as opposed to an agreement that's the most mutually beneficial to both the rEU and whatever country is leaving, in this case the UK) then it suggests that merely the benefits lost by leaving the EU aren't sufficient to quell people's desire to leave in other countries - they need to be made to suffer more than if we made an agreement that's best for both parties. Surely you can agree that if the EU goes out of its way to make the situation worse for the UK, then it would be partially responsible for furthering the economic woes of the UK? But that's an 'If'.
Uh ? You have some paperwork when you sign up for it but after that it's pretty much automatic. And there are also no employment conditions.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Would WTO (GATT) be "artificially" harsh on the UK in your eyes?
Source?
Frozenprince
Banned
Wow.
Guess he's talking about this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...tish-children-told-to-leave-uk-after-24-years
CyclopsRock
Member
It depends on how the negotiations go. If the UK is openly offering certain beneficial thing things and being met with "Nope, WTO." then yes. If the UK is saying "Give us the moon on a stick whilst we give nothing back" and it's met with "Nope, WTO." then no. I don't think you can make a judgement based on the outcome alone.
QuicheFontaine
Member
If he is, then he's talking a load of bollocks. Nothing in that article is about "throwing out" the Dutch woman, it's just poor handling of an application by the Home Office (something that is by no means experienced only by EU migrants!).
Souldriver
Member
Yeah, I would hope the EU keeps it easy for individual citizens of the UK to be part of the EU. The Brexit was still "just" a 50/50 decision, and I din't want to fuck over all the people who are actively trying to be part of a multinational society. We need those people, they are the ones to build the future for everyone.
The UK goverment is doing a well enough job fucking themselves over. I would hope the EU tries to counter as much by giving UK citizens enough options. How that works in practise, I have no idea.
The Friendly Monster
Member
Well I don't think we will find out about the details.
In any case the EU has clear standards when it comes to European trading agreements. There's EU membership, EEA membership, and the Customs Union. If the UK wants to leave those then getting anything more than WTO GATT would be artifically kind in my book.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
That's not a controversial opinion.....
Citizenship is not automatic and is a responsibility, but a responsibility that comes with many benefits.
"Leaving the single market," probably won't end up all that scary. Plenty of countries do just fine without being in it. I'd be more concerned if we were running a trade surplus but we ain't. We buy a lot of stuff, being able to freely approach the world for alternative offers of supplying the goods that we buy could actually work well mid to long term.
Short term? Who knows but I don't actually think it'll be that scary, it's not like any economy in the EU is flying right now with most countries struggling to pay the bills and spiralling debt.
We've been in the EU a long time, there's an entire generation where the EU is all they know and find it difficult to imagine a UK economy that isn't balanced towards its rules and regulations. The apprehension is understandable.
I voted remain, but it was a vote that was placed on a minor balance as I also considered the leave vote as well.
Don't be ridiculous. if that was truly the case, than nobody would ever go to the UK as there are way better options for that. The only reason why people go to the UK is simple:
1) they already speak at least some english, which makes the UK an easier destination compared to countries that require german, french or whatever else language skills
2) and because they speak english, they expect better opportunities there, since without any language skills, you're pretty much unemployable in most places, or forced into shitty jobs. If you wanna work a shitty job, there is no reason to migrate in the first place
3) for whatever reason, many people still believe the UK is a prosperous country with good job opportunities. I guess the UK PR department deserves a raise
he sure seems like a nice fellah
Ah, well thats ok then
Unless you happened to crawl.out of a vagina within the border.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Irrelevant. If you just crawl out with no connection then you're not a UK citizen.... Unrestricted Jus soli citizenship is pretty much only in the Americas.
gutter_trash
Banned
British rettirees living in other European countries and/or who own summer homes should also lose their "benefits" and tax examptions.
HEY! wanna retire in Spain or France? Well fuck your EU benefits too . You wanna Brexit, then go all the way and lose your own EU benifits.
Jezbollah
Member
Just put special taxes for them to pay for any kind of higher cost to citizen.
As far as France is concerned, they're not citizen so they will not be treated the same way as citizen will.
That opens them up for special taxes and the likes.
The Hamburglar
Banned
Let's not kid ourselves.
What county in the world gives (until the cap of 26,000) none British citizens and British citizens get houses, sometimes huge houses and all they need to achieve this is children.
An extreme example would be There was some Somalian family living in a mansion in London that cost 4K a month rent. Why? Because there was no council house to put them in.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Edit: wasnt that story debunked?
travisbickle
Member
CadetMahoney
Member
One thing I never knew:
So basically someone from outside the EU (Pakistan/China/You name it) marrying a British Citizen get's citizenship but not EU citizens right next door (France/Germany etc).
EU and non EU can both get benefits if you have "indefinite leave to remain" a legal term with a definition, it's as good as a citizen when it comes work/benefits. In other words you're under no restrictions and there is no requirement for endorsements to be in your foreign passport.
This is usually granted to legit refugees and people who qualify like 5 years living under certain conditions (EU citizen exercising treaty rights and "following the rules"). I was always under the impression that Permanent Residency Status was similar but different, but it looks like the exact same thing.
Either way the UK government doesn't like giving people refugee status or ILR. And have made it harder year on year.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
What is your point?
In the event of a hard Brexit where nothing approaching an extension or a free trade agreement is reached there would be zero benefit to the UK government to do anything but this, really. Pretty much every country with a significant social safety net has a temporary exclusion as far as I know, and we're talking places without freedom of movement. The EU's freedom of movement with a vast number of countries has resulted in a very large amount of migration to the UK as it was considered a right of the bloc's citizens. Upon leaving that bloc without any agreement, a temporary exclusion of that large amount of people arriving under those rules could become permanent.
Expats can return home if the EU reciprocates.
People requesting to move to the UK from those places have to meet requirements and come in smaller numbers.
I am not disputing this.
I am disputing the framing of immigrants as lazy slobs fleecing good hardworking citizen (by making children of all things).
Because you know, we were talking about immigrants and benefits.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
That's great, but the public decided they want fewer. It's not personal, and we're likely talking about more than 51.9% who have expressed concerns. Perhaps a primarily points-based system instead and total numbers closer to replacement level. I have no idea what it's like in France or Germany, but the net migration to the UK every year has been very significant since controls with new members have been relaxed.
The economic ramifications of leaving the bloc are certainly a concern, but there you have it. You may not agree with that view of the world, but most Western countries set their own policy in that area and would be able to accommodate quotas.
So you're talking about something that isn't really the point. It isn't about hard work, really. It's about fewer arrivals every year.
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