You're a real piece of work, you know that? You've got no clue what his situation is.
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UK Government: discussion on permanent ban for EU residents claiming benefits
- Thread starter Tak3n
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You're a real piece of work, you know that? You've got no clue what his situation is.
Silver Arrows
Banned
Basically:
is what you are trying to tar and feather him on. Disgusting is putting it lightly.
KurtSloane
Banned
I didnt say it was ok for a British National to abuse the system, no one shoukd be able to.
I just think benefits to immigrants should be restricted, monitored, capped.
Any unemployed immigrants should be barred full stop, no job ... no entry.
It sounds like you're going to these medicals yourself. I'd get someone to go with you it should only help your case. You said you suffer from social anxiety but it sounds like you're going on your own and handling it fine, just based off that I wouldn't think you had SA so if I was the medical "doctor" I'd think you were well enough to work aswell. Obviously I don't know how your depression/general anxiety is like but that's all I can say to try help out.
I save up months if not years to be able to afford luxuries ( when I mean save I actually mean £5/£10 a month max so not how normal working day people do), oh and for your info I didn't end up getting a laptop or a DS as I simple couldn't afford it looking at it. The only luxury I have is my old PS4. Which I have around 5 games for, but carry on trying to judge me.
You're actually suggesting that people unable to work should have no money outside of what they need to survive? You're a disgrace.
Let me ask you
What does he say when he wrote ''Coming to UK to only get benefit''?
I mean that is basically saying ''born in UK only to get benefit'' only if you come from somewhere else then you have no right to do so.
Any benefit to anyone should be restricted, monitored and capped. Whether you are an immigrant or a Brit.
Full stop.
There are plenty of Brits who do not deserve the benefits and still get it.
Oh right! because they have the ''rights'' to so.
I see. You're the sort who goes around council estates just to see who has a satellite dish and looks through their front windows to see if they have horror of horrors, a flat screen TV or a Wii and then tuts loudly. Maybe make a Facebook post about it when you get home.
Nasty piece of work you are, looking through Beefy's post history to find that, trying to imply that him buying a £100 handheld games console is him gaming the system. You're a bully and you're what's wrong with this country.
I go to the medicals with my dad as I am unable to go to the medicals myself due to how much pressure it puts me under and me being sick, so I usually have my dad speak for me. I only use a taxi to get to the job centre as I have no other way of getting there as my dad has to work. He can't take too many days off or he loses money.
The signing on is once a week, were all I have to do is sign on a screen then get a taxi home. The medical is only once a year which my dad takes me.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm not sure I actually understand what you've said here, but if you're taking issue with him saying "coming to the UK to only get benefits" because it excludes UK-born people who game the system, I don't think you're right. There are solutions to the problem available when the person's a migrant that aren't available when they're from the UK, so the solutions may well be different. That doesn't mean it's fine and dandy to do it if you're a UK citizen.
I'm sorry to hear this. I'm sure you know, but you don't need to justify yourself to him in any way. From what he writes the guy is obviously human garbage and isn't worth your time or energy.
KurtSloane
Banned
If you have read my posts I have said no one should be allowed to commit benefit fraud.
Take time to read and you will see.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Why are you acting like such a judgmental asshole?
Buying a 3DS in October 2014, and struggling to live off JSA in January 2017 aren't contradictions
I left school at 17 and went straight into full time employment, I then joined the armed forces and served fourteen years which I then left and did a two year apprenticeship with no wages so that I could re-train myself to be more productive for myself.
After that I became self-employed but after five years became unemployed and tried to claim welfare benefits and was turned down because I was told that my wife who works could support me.
Fuck this country and its system, seriously fuck it. The best advice I can give is screw the system for everything you can get as early as you can do it.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
UK citizens damn better not get any sort of EU citizen benefits either then. I mean, I'm sorry for you guys who didn't vote for this, but there's just no way we can let the UK get out of the costly parts of being an EU country while still retaining the benefits. Nope.
KurtSloane
Banned
Fair enough, I agree.
As a uk citizen i dont blame you. the arrogance of the leave camp wanting their cake and eating it continues to piss me off.
What solution are you referring to?
From what i understand, there aren't benefits that is exclusive to an immigrant, a Brit wouldn't get and I am saying that benefit cheats should be monitored regardless of anyones background. Punishments should all laid out equally regardless of any benefits.
If there are Immigrants who comes here only to get benefits, and which many of you lot are enraged about, the there are Brits who live here only to get benefits and both should be equally treated.
I have read your posts
here you say
What about unemployed people who live here?
Ah right, does that mean they can unemployed and keep on living?
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Not sure you can even do that because that means discriminating against EU nationals. I mean, I support free movement of people but there should probably be less unskilled people moving to other countries. But then the robots will take away loads of unskilled jobs anyway so life is still going to suck in future for unskilled workers even without immigrants unless they retrain into skilled trades or something.
It's cool. Sick people and people on benefits get this shit all the time. First time I have had it on here though, not a surprise . Thanks
I have a similar story to that, to cut a long story short, I was made redundant after working solidly for nearly 30 years, the amount of hoops I had to jump through to even get a sniff of JSA was unreal, and the disdain I was shown by the Job Centre was disgusting, I felt dirty everytime I left that place.
What people need to understand is, that for every one person who is intent on gaming the system, there are thousands of others who are struggling, there is a massive stigma against the welfare system.
Let's support those who can't, through no fault of their own, support themselves, but on the flipside, those that can should be made to work.
That's terrible advice, all that does is perpetrate the notion that people on benefits are cheats.
people unfortunately dont see it like that they will happily tank the system and destroy thousands of lives because of a tiny minority gaming it.
I'm a bit late in replying but damn that sounds tough, even more so after reading subsequent posts. Not much I can say other than I hope things work out.
Thank you. The most worrying thing for me is there are many people even worse of then me. I don't know how they are surviving.
CadetMahoney
Member
Sort of proposals that asks more questions than answers.
EU nationals and non EU nationals can have "permanent residency", "indefinite leave to remain", people who have been granted full "refugee status" (albeit this is really used for non-EU nationals), people who have children in the UK (it's not like the gubment is gonna stop giving them housing and benefits, they do this for even non-EU nationals, the kid just doesn't have citizenship).
EU nationals and non EU nationals can have "permanent residency", "indefinite leave to remain", people who have been granted full "refugee status" (albeit this is really used for non-EU nationals), people who have children in the UK (it's not like the gubment is gonna stop giving them housing and benefits, they do this for even non-EU nationals, the kid just doesn't have citizenship).
It needs to be an EU wide thing really.
CyclopsRock
Member
Well the obvious difference is that if you effectively cease benefits to a migrant, they have the option of returning home where they can still receive benefits from their own country. This isn't an option that British people have and therefore it's not a possible solution, assuming we are working on the basis that no one should be left dying in the streets.
And I don't think what the poster is talking about is specifically people cheating the system, but rather people specifically coming here in order to legitimately claim benefits (rather than coming here, working and then losing their job). This doesn't benefit the UK in any way and effectively forcing them to leave by cutting off their welfare is, again, an option which exists for those people which doesn't leave them dying in the streets (because they can go home), which again isn't the case for British citizens.
Edit: As a proxy, it's a similar situation to foreign criminals who get charged with an offense. Ideally we'd ship them back home to be housed in a prison in their own country, to alleviate us from that burden. That's not an option for UK citizens that have been found guilty of a criminal charge, so it's not an option when in both cases the intended outcome is to ensure the criminal serves out their sentence.
NB I don't care about this issue because I think any abuse of the system is far too small to care about, but it's not obvious to me that the solutions need to be the same for everyone, as long as the desired outcome - stopping people abusing the system - is the same for everyone.
What about if they bought a 3DS sometime in the last 3 years? /s
He did say that bit about how an immigrant shouldn't be able to take out more than they put in though, which would cover someone who came here, worked, and then lost their job.
The real danger is they were voted by a majority to due their bidding for them.
Hate foreigners? Cool then vote for me and I will take care of your problems.
Works every time. People just don't grasp they are getting screwed.
paperghost
Neo Member
always wondered what % of non EEA are able to claim benefits in the UK, as even those with permanent right to remain are typically bound by the terms of their sponsorship and can find themselves blocked after the five year stint is up.
in theory there are things we could *potentially* apply for, but it's so much hassle to do - and could always screw up the long permanent residency process - that we just don't bother. we even ask our immigration advisor about changes / sign-ups to pension plans, healthcare and the like just to be on the safe side because you never know what horrible thing is lurking on page 867 of "DON'T DO THIS".
KurtSloane
Banned
Thank you for explaining this to the poster.
CyclopsRock
Member
Yeah, but that "solution", poor though it is, would solve both problems. If you can only take out what you gave in, it's less of a welfare system and more of an involuntary savings scheme, but it would stop both people claiming fraudulently (by, for example, pretending to not work whilst in fact working cash in hand, because the latter pays no tax and therefore they'd have no "allowance"), as well as those claiming legitimately but without paying in, ie the free rider problem.
I agree with this. I don't feel anyone should move anywhere at the cost of the recipient country,theres no benefit to it.
True, but it doesn't really answer the question as to why a British person should be able to get out more than they pay in, and a migrant not (assuming they both have a history of paying taxes).
Also, I agree it would 'solve' the free rider problem there, but disagree on the fraud bit - plenty of people already get cash in hand wages despite the fact that it means they aren't meeting their NI contribution. I think that is getting onto a separate argument though, so think it might be better if i just leave that point from here
The question you'd also have to ask is where do we stop? Which other services do we start to withhold from migrants on the basis that they haven't paid in enough? And once we've done it to migrants, who else should get cut? Should it mean that the rich are entitled to more because they've contributed more? The elderly because they've put in more, but if we factor in time and inflation perhaps a 45 year old is entitled to more than a 90 year old as the latter's contribution was already used up and spent a long time ago?
The slope is slippery.
Commander Jameson
Member
What about EU migrants that are on a zero-hours contract? Should they be allowed tax credits and such like?
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree, let's stop! However, as a point of reference, NI is almost 100% non-hypothecated. That is to say, NI isn't ringfenced for anything specific. For all the difference it makes, it might as well be bundled in with income tax. The only exception is that technically it alters your public pension very slightly, but it's generally agreed that even this distinction will disappear soon.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I assume the decision was made that a soft Brexit just isn't possible for the government, because no benefits whatsoever would ensure that. If there's going to be a hard Brexit and no real single market access, then there's no benefit to the UK government to do anything but this.
I repeat, if there's a hard Brexit, this is an obvious decision. Will it be popular here on GAF? No, but that's not really relevant to the issue of there being no benefit for the UK government without single market access.
I repeat, if there's a hard Brexit, this is an obvious decision. Will it be popular here on GAF? No, but that's not really relevant to the issue of there being no benefit for the UK government without single market access.
We shouldn't be encouraging people to move under these conditions.
Basically:
is what you are trying to tar and feather him on. Disgusting is putting it lightly.
His definition of poor most be homeless.
Article 18 TFEU:
"Within the scope of application of the Treaties, and without prejudice to any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited."
Open and shut case. This would unduly harm EU workers/employment-seekers and impede the free movement of EU citizens/workers without there being a clear overriding necessity to do so. There have been numerous cases on this that will overturn this kind of discrimination if it reaches the CJEU.
This is kind of the entire point of the EU. In the eyes of the law, all EU citizens should be granted equal opportunities to work and live in the EU. If the UK doesn't want to play ball and is intent on bringing down the EU's four freedoms to serve its indifference towards everyone that is not from the UK, they are free to leave as soon as humanly possible.
"Within the scope of application of the Treaties, and without prejudice to any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited."
Open and shut case. This would unduly harm EU workers/employment-seekers and impede the free movement of EU citizens/workers without there being a clear overriding necessity to do so. There have been numerous cases on this that will overturn this kind of discrimination if it reaches the CJEU.
This is kind of the entire point of the EU. In the eyes of the law, all EU citizens should be granted equal opportunities to work and live in the EU. If the UK doesn't want to play ball and is intent on bringing down the EU's four freedoms to serve its indifference towards everyone that is not from the UK, they are free to leave as soon as humanly possible.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
With the current state of UK politics, if I wasn't already a UK citizen I wouldn't ask for citizenship. EU citizenships for the win. My parents aren't even UK citizens and are here on a permanent residency only with no intention of becoming citizens and still support Brexit for some reason. Wonder why people believe in the 'pull up the drawbridge' mentality.
The Hamburglar
Banned
Why are people trying to deflect by saying britons themselves abuse the system? When people moan about brits abusing the system the same people deflecting then say it's all the Tory propaganda etc.
No migrant whenever they are eu or not eu should have access to any benefit. And the whole receiving money for children that are not even in the county is insane.
No migrant whenever they are eu or not eu should have access to any benefit. And the whole receiving money for children that are not even in the county is insane.
This will fly about as far as a lead brick.
I honestly hope the EU pulls the trigger and turns all this shit back on British "Ex Pats", or at least goes out of their way to completely fuck us over in any negotiations. We quite frankly deserve no mercy.
Quite.
I'm sure Tak3n is just looking to provoke discussion, such a shame his well meaning thread turned into immigrant / benefit claimant bashing.
I honestly hope the EU pulls the trigger and turns all this shit back on British "Ex Pats", or at least goes out of their way to completely fuck us over in any negotiations. We quite frankly deserve no mercy.
Quite.
I'm sure Tak3n is just looking to provoke discussion, such a shame his well meaning thread turned into immigrant / benefit claimant bashing.
They will treat British expats nicely, which is the best way to piss of the Brits. Look at the suggestion that the British could request eu citizenship after Brexit. UKIP went mad
Royal_Phalanx
Member
I hope the EU will treat us 18-35's nicely. The vast majority of us didn't want this, I hope they give us an easier pathway for residency and EU citizenship.
EU citizens will not be deported. UK citizens will not be deported from the EU.
I think it really will probably end up all a tad mundane in the end, everyone will declare victory in one area or another and things will go on.
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