We're talking about people who are actively trying to destroy the country, not common criminals.
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UK 'has stripped 150 jihadists and criminals of citizenship'
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
- Start date
We're talking about people who are actively trying to destroy the country, not common criminals.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
You can always relinquish citizenship if you have another.
Sounds like using ISIS to erode citizen rights.
The Netherlands also really loves not dealing with their own criminals and deporting people instead. Dual citizenship should in no way allow for this.
When my friend gets to keep his and live here but I lose mine for the same crime then that is discrimination plain and clear. I at that point am a 2nd class citizen afraid of being deported, even if I'm a native born citizen.
The Netherlands also really loves not dealing with their own criminals and deporting people instead. Dual citizenship should in no way allow for this.
When my friend gets to keep his and live here but I lose mine for the same crime then that is discrimination plain and clear. I at that point am a 2nd class citizen afraid of being deported, even if I'm a native born citizen.
Jezbollah
Member
No one is talking about citizens born in the UK in this scenario.
I would expect a second citizenship of a UK citizen to be available to be stripped if they obtained citizenship in another country and they committed a crime of such magnitude that citizenship could be revoked.
The stripping of citizenship like this the OP posted has been done by other countries before. And it is legal.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
this was one of the big load of crap the papers in the UK were peddling to the masses saying the UK couldn't do this. EU blah blah blah etc.
a lot of idiots voted for Breixt because of this kind of thing...
milanbaros
Member?
Yep. Me too.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
Are traitors immune from being tried, convicted and locked up?
ClosingADoor
Member
Any examples of Dutch people being deported that were born here? Can't find any examples.
If you are a citizen of two countries, and you actively go to war against one of those countries, well, you can stay away.
Huh, no?
No, but unless they get life terms they'll just go on to radicalize others and get released to try and carry out further attacks.
| Praxis |
Banned
If you willingly go to join IS, anything less than a missile being dropped on you is too leniant.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
I'm happy we pushed back this shit in France. If you're french, you're french no matter what awful crimes you committed.
I don't think jihadist will care about losing the UK nationality.
huh?
I don't think jihadist will care about losing the UK nationality.
huh?
Even if they get life terms there's the possibility of them radicalising others in prison who aren't serving life terms.
I don't know about examples of native born people, yet at least. There is no doubt it will be a point of discussion when the moment is there in the future.
There were however, examples on Dutch tv about people who got here young and got deported after multiple sentences. People who end up not knowing what the hell to do there because they are used to life here.
These are not terrorists and it's important to know that while the argument from politicians now involves terrorists, it will end up affecting others too.
It's just easy to get people to agree to everything as long as you act like it'll 'stop terrorism'.
Edit: Here you go. It is possible.
Audioboxer
Member
I can't feel sympathy. If they have dual citizenship and this is the way they disregard the harmony and safety of their fellow British citizens then, bye. It's all fine to be saying this is a bad thing until someone acts out and it's "known to authorities" and thousands of people saying lives have now been lost and what did the Government do? Well, this is the Government doing something it legally can.
PdotMichael
Banned
Yes
ClosingADoor
Member
I have little sympathy for that. Apparently they don't know what to do here also, considering they have multiple sentences for what I take are serious crimes. People don't get deported for shoplifting once or twice. But really, I can't find anything about cases where this has been done. I remember cases of people being deported because their parents asylum was rejected, and then the kids need to go also, even if they have been here for years. But that is different.
Here it says it can only be done if you lied when you applied for your citizenship, or if you commit crimes against the state (war crimes, terrorism, etc): https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderw...ekken-nederlandse-nationaliteit-door-overheid
And for the topic at hand. If they go out and join a terrorist organisation, they made their choice to reject their citizenship of this country.
These are people who failed in the Netherlands. It is our society that failed to fix the problem. Not the country of which he also has a citizenship of.
And look at my edit: It is possible for me to lose my citizenship even though I was born here.
So if we both do the same crime you can stay and I will end up in Morocco where I don't understand anything. That's not fair and not according to the values of our law system IMO.
ClosingADoor
Member
Your link does not say that. That is about war crimes and terrorism: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderw...ekken-nederlandse-nationaliteit-door-overheid
I'd be happy to be proven wrong if you got any examples, but I can't find them, and the government website does not say what you are implying.
While I do like the notion that we cannot strip people from their citizenship that easily, I would still argue that in this case those people have made a very deliberate choice of forfeiting their citizenship of the UK by joining the self-proclaimed Islamic State.
There must be a defense mechanism in place for fundamentalists / terrorists *not* to return easily when they go that route. This extends to other proxy / so-called states like Transnistria or Donetzk / Lugansk - the moment you join their military ranks, it's like attaining dual citizenship and you lose the old one.
It's very different from, say, moving to another place to work there or start a family. The very concept of the IS is our death and the death of modern, civilized ways. People who join them, for whatever reasons, are not our friends or allies. People may stray a bit while they're young etc., but this is so much more. And we have to protect ourselves from that.
There must be a defense mechanism in place for fundamentalists / terrorists *not* to return easily when they go that route. This extends to other proxy / so-called states like Transnistria or Donetzk / Lugansk - the moment you join their military ranks, it's like attaining dual citizenship and you lose the old one.
It's very different from, say, moving to another place to work there or start a family. The very concept of the IS is our death and the death of modern, civilized ways. People who join them, for whatever reasons, are not our friends or allies. People may stray a bit while they're young etc., but this is so much more. And we have to protect ourselves from that.
Couldn't you just lose the Morocco citizenship if you really wanted to?
Mind sharing a source on that? You can lose German citizenship if you have dual citizenship and then join a foreign army, but the Wissenschaftlicher Dienst argues that this does not consider the IS:
https://www.bundestag.de/blob/493610/4aef9e281154c0735ecd5dad5d5805ac/wd-3-270-16-pdf-data.pdf
Right which is my point. It is now legally possible. Event though some of it is constitutionally questionable. In the previous election many mainstream parties showed the desire to go even further. This concerns me greatly.
Especially because those deciding things will never ever experience it, no matter how much they wrongdoing they do to the country or it's people. They can rape a whole school or bomb parliament and they'll stay Dutch. It is obvious that I have less rights because of this.
No I can not because it is a permanent citizenship. I can tear up my papers and show up in Morocco and they'll still recognize me as a citizen.
ClosingADoor
Member
But you said:
That is not true then. Only with war crimes and terrorism can your nationality be taken away.
And in that case, you are going to war against the country. So that implies you have rejected it and we have no obligation to keep you.
"one an Algerian national and the other a Nigerian citizen"
These two never had German citizenship.
And this part of the article is incorrect:
As in my last post, the Wissenschaftlicher Dienst des Bundestags makes it pretty clear that the law only applies to dual citizens joining a foreign army, not extremist groups.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
nvm didn't know it was impossible. Sorry I was misinformed.
MontyBrown
Banned
Make them swim the channel. If they make it to mainland Europe they can find a home there, if they drown no loss.
ClosingADoor
Member
Some countries unfortunately do not allow that, including Morocco, Turkey, Iran and Greece for example.
But in this case, they should then really blame that country for making it impossible.
Can you have the right to stay and not be a citizen? I'm not sure if that was the construction the man was in then but it was real and on Nieuwsuur irrc.
And like I said you can start a whole anti-NL coalition of countries and still be Dutch, why can't I? Because of stuff I can't control. But that's beside the point because I believe once you grant someone citizenship then that is irrevocable from the state's side.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
That's insane. Especially with countries disallowing dual nationality.
I know Turkey doesn't share data to even check for dual nationality.
Audioboxer
Member
If you want to go and live in another country from the one you were born in do not become a terrorist and there will be no "less rights". No one is owed the ability to just say fuck you I'm living where I want. Countries by nature of being countries deserve to vet and consider anyone wanting to come and live within. They have a duty of safety to citizens within the country and at times we should be saying the country of birth for these terrorists should be the ones held responsible. Why is it always the country they wish to cause harm in/kill/radicalise that should have to deal with these whack jobs? We gave them dual citizenship and this is how they "repay" the country?
No one's being made stateless, we're simply saying no, we're not risking any more lives from bombs, car rammings and knife attacks by people who now have radicalised and are trying to come back into the country to cause harm. With citizens born here it's different, and has other legal parameters to deal with.
No that is not how rights work. If I'm in Morocco with my Moroccan ID I'm under Moroccan law and the other way around. Besides I also have potential duties that single Dutch nationals don't have.
And come on people, you keep falling in the lure of 'terrorism1!' and ignore the obvious wants to go further than just this. It's not a slippery slope fallacy if worse stuff is in the planning, it's a legitimate argument.
ClosingADoor
Member
Link to that example? Because I am guessing there is a bit more going on there then just a crime and having him deported. Of course if you are not a citizen, but are allowed to stay, that will be taken away from you if you commit a crime.
I don't get why you want to start a "anti-NL coalition" and still be Dutch. You are basically saying here: I want to have the right to become a terrorist against the Dutch state and be allowed Dutch citizenship. That is a really strange argument.
Yep, in Holland you need to do away with your other nationality, unless that country doesn't allow it. It's a bit strange. But blame that country. And otherwise, you actually have more rights, since others are not allowed to do this.
Blame Morocco, not Holland for that.
I feel a little conflicted on this. On one hand, they should just be given a free pass to come back but on the other, I feel like it'll be better for the world if we did take them in and out them in prison. I don't think most of these people understand what living would be like in a country like Syria/Iraq, as in lead a normal life, so I feel like even with ISIS gone, they may resort to something else.
jakonovski
Member
At least this thread gives context to why Brexit was so popular.
Why blame Morocco? It's the Netherlands causing problems here because they don't deem me a real permanent citizen unless international law prohibits them from deporting me.
Had to really look for it but here is the link MO Doc: Geboren, getogen. Uitgezet.
MontyBrown
Banned
I voted Remain and welcome immigrants and asylum seekers.
If you have ties to ISIS/terrorism that are strong enough to warrant deportation, I don't give a shit about you.
jakonovski
Member
Sure you did, mr. revenge porn.
CampbellzSoup
Member
Because people don't want to live with terrorists?
MontyBrown
Banned
Why would I lie?
These are people who want to kill indiscriminately and ruin everything our society stands for. Innocent immigrants and asylum seekers are suffering because of them.
NOBODY should give a shit about them.
ClosingADoor
Member
No, Morroco is causing the problem because they don't allow you to reject their citizenship. You are a real citizen, you have the same rights. Unless you want to pick up arms against the state, which is totally reasonable.
Your video already starts with "verblijfsvergunning". These people are not citizens. That is a very different thing.
I'm watching now and the first guy says he pretty much spent 10 years in and out of prison. He is not a Dutch citizen. Why should we allow him to extend his stay here?
Edit: so yeah, these people are not citizens. They came here with their parents at a young age, true. After that they become criminal, so their visum was not extended. I don't see any issue here.
IaN_GAF
Member
Fine post. I do not see how Dutch law is supposed to be the issue here, when they made arrangements to still allow for people who are forced to keep their original nationality to still be able to come to the Netherlands and build a life here. But, as always, I would love to be educated further.
jakonovski
Member
Well, I admit I don't really give a shit how you voted, but you fit the profile pretty well on this subject matter.
People like you is why due process was invented. The proper kind, mind. Not this "we made it law to not have due process for these people so no due process is actually due process" shit.
Stallion Dan
Member
Stuck with them.
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