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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin

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M

Maledict

Member
Moze said:
Do go on...
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There have now been numerous, separate reports of him deliberately undermining the Remain campaign - taking Europe of out of his speeches, refusing to campaign in likely areas, refusing to campaign with other party leaders, refusing to share voter information with the remain campaign, going on holiday in the middle of the campaign, and talking about bloody turkey and immigration the day before the referendum. We've heard this from the Remain campagign, from Welsh labour and even from Alan Johnson - the man who wouldn't even put the knife in Gordon or Ed when the entire party was urging him to.

Corbyn let down the party, the country and most importantly the young people of this country by fucking over the remain campaign,p. If he doesn't agree with party policy, then he either changes it or gets the fuck out. Screwing over the Remain campaign in this way is a shocking betrayal of the Labour Party.
 
P

P44

Member
Maledict said:
Um no, please lease my post above.

This is not the usual tiny band of trouble makers. This is the entire party, plus numerous advisors. People who accepted posts in the shadow cabinet TWO DAYS AGO have resigned.

Literally, the entire PLP apart from the small group of ultra-loyalists have gone. The normal people who support him have gone. He has literally no support in parliament to stay. It doesn't matter what the leadership result is, he cannot command a party and if he refuses to go the party is going to end up splitting.
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He's never had the support of the PLP, that's my point. Some openly oppose, some quietly oppose, some went along with it but weren't that happy - it was a far cry from the relatively unified voice of the labour party in previous years and the whole thing came off as a shit compromise from the start.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Buzzman said:
Is this fucking bizarro world? Holy shit. Cameron called the fucking referendum so he would win the election, and now he's destroyed the UK.

WHY ARE WE BLAMING THE OPPOSITION FOR THIS:
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Oh, Cameron has his own place in hell designated for this. But Jeremy Corbyn shares some of the blame, and he's the guy supposed to represent young people the most in parliament given his voting base remember.

I have a lot of hate for politicians for this fiasco to go round - and I want a Labour Party back that will campaign vigorously to be in Europe and actually win power again.
 
M

Maledict

Member
P44 said:
He's never had the support of the PLP, that's my point. Some openly oppose, some quietly oppose, some went along with it but weren't that happy - it was a far cry from the relatively unified voice of the labour party in previous years and the whole thing came off as a shit compromise from the start.
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Um, ?!?!?

Relatively unified?

Even in 97 the blair / brown stuff was already at a fever pitch. The Labour Party hasn't been unified in my lifetime. Neither party has - because they are broad coalitions. Hell, up until this week Brown did far worse to Blair than the PLP has done to Corbyn.
 
P

P44

Member
Maledict said:
Um, ?!?!?

Relatively unified?

Even in 97 the blair / brown stuff was already at a fever pitch. The Labour Party hasn't been unified in my lifetime. Neither party has - because they are broad coalitions. Hell, up until this week Brown did far worse to Blair than the PLP has done to Corbyn.
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I don't know man, call it a difference in perspective.
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
CyclopsRock said:
Tbh that experience - being a Labour leader who lost to a Tory - puts him in the upper 0.00001% when it comes to being in a position of experience in what Corbyn's going to go through. Maybe he's worth listening to?
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The PLP argument that Corbyn isn't electable enough in a GE would carry more weight if said PLP could bring up an alternative. But they don't have anyone that could do that. They don't even have anyone that could win an election inside of the Labour party.

Not having that, and not having a mandate from Labour members, means, to me, that you have nothing to bring to the table, and, as such, that you should probably shut up and get in line.
 
M

Moze

Banned
Maledict said:
There have now been numerous, separate reports of him deliberately undermining the Remain campaign - taking Europe of out of his speeches, refusing to campaign in likely areas, refusing to campaign with other party leaders, refusing to share voter information with the remain campaign, going on holiday in the middle of the campaign, and talking about bloody turkey and immigration the day before the referendum. We've heard this from the Remain campagign, from Welsh labour and even from Alan Johnson - the man who wouldn't even put the knife in Gordon or Ed when the entire party was urging him to.

Corbyn let down the party, the country and most importantly the young people of this country by fucking over the remain campaign,p. If he doesn't agree with party policy, then he either changes it or gets the fuck out. Screwing over the Remain campaign in this way is a shocking betrayal of the Labour Party.
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So you are talking about tabloid nonsense and blaming Corbyn for Cameron getting cocky and thinking he was invisible? OK.

Corbyn is respects people and their decisions. He campaigned with respect instead of scaremongering nonsense. He made it clear that we should stay in the EU, but he also showed respect to people who thought different.


I really do not understand why Corbyn is getting the blame for the dirty work of the Tories.
 
P

P44

Member
ElNarez said:
The PLP argument that Corbyn isn't electable enough in a GE would carry more weight if said PLP could bring up an alternative. But they don't have anyone that could do that. They don't even have anyone that could win an election inside of the Labour party.

Not having that, and not having a mandate from Labour members, means, to me, that you have nothing to bring to the table, and, as such, that you should probably shut up and get in line.
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There's my point though, anybody with half a brain is remaining quiet, and it will likely be those who challenge in the aftermath.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
Some of you at least need to admit that it's funny to see a PLP that lost two consecutive GEs in a row suddenly become an authority on what is and isn't electable.

Corbyn absolutely needs to step aside; his position as leader of the party is untenable if nothing else. But anyone who crows about 'effective opposition' when the Labour Party from 2010 to 2015 had the general strategy of 'the same as the Tories but with a look of embarrassment while they said it' is in for a shock if they think whoever the PLP fields as new leader is going to offer something other than austerity forever, continued erosion of the welfare state, and a right wing lurch 'to appeal to the centre ground'.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Moze said:
So you are talking about tabloid nonsense and blaming Corbyn for Cameron getting cocky and thinking he was invisible? OK.

Corbyn is respects people and their decisions. He campaigned with respect instead of scaremongering nonsense. He made it clear that we should stay in the EU, but he also showed respect to people who thought different.


I really do not understand why Corbyn is getting the blame for the dirty work of the Tories.
Click to expand...

So just to confirm, you aren't reading what I am posting or what Labour itself are saying?

Alan Johnson is not a tabloid.
Welsh Labour is not a tabloid.
Will Straw, director of the remain campaign, is not a tabloid.
The BBC is not a tabloid.

He deliberately undermined and sabotaged the campaign, which was against Labour Party policy - hence this rebellion. They withheld voter information ffs - you know, the details of all those labour voters in the north who voted to leave and who were saying the week before the referendum they didn't know which way the party was voting?

Corbyn is not exclusively to blame for this - Cameron shares the majority. But he absolutely contributed to the vote result in no small way, and at least Cameron campaigned his damn ass off. He didn't campaign with expect - he hardly campaigne and when he did it was worse than doing nothing. He talked about freedom of movement and Turkey the day before the vote!
 
C

CyclopsRock

Member
ElNarez said:
The PLP argument that Corbyn isn't electable enough in a GE would carry more weight if said PLP could bring up an alternative. But they don't have anyone that could do that. They don't even have anyone that could win an election inside of the Labour party.

Not having that, and not having a mandate from Labour members, means, to me, that you have nothing to bring to the table, and, as such, that you should probably shut up and get in line.
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But Burnham or Cooper or even Kendall wouldn't rip the party apart. They wouldn't have an elite leadership who has no support in the PLP or in constituency parties. There are worse things than losing an election, and the fact that Corbyn's going to lose the election as well as stop it functioning as a party is just the icing on the cake or the nail in his coffin or the piss on his cornflakes or whatever other noun in his noun metaphor you want.
 
P

P44

Member
godelsmetric said:
Some of you at least need to admit that it's funny to see a PLP that lost two consecutive GEs in a row suddenly become an authority on what is and isn't electable.

Corbyn absolutely needs to step aside; his position as leader of the party is untenable if nothing else. But anyone who crows about 'effective opposition' when the Labour Party from 2010 to 2015 had the general strategy of 'the same as the Tories but with a look of embarrassment while they said it' is in for a shock if they think whoever the PLP fields as new leader is going to offer something other than austerity forever, continued erosion of the welfare state, and a right wing lurch 'to appeal to the centre ground'.
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Yeah.

I'll be clear, I think he should have resigned after the no confidence vote. Despite the constitutional aspect, it's just an incredibly difficult position to work from now.

But Labour even with a new leader will struggle to regain the center. They'll need coherent plans, bold initiatives and serious work on the ground in these constituencies to win them back.

I don't blame Corbyn for saying he's 7/10 on the EU, it's a 7/10 kind of thing - there's certainly a level of rigidity that comes from membership, now, of course on balance it's worth it, we could see that before, we can see that now, but a Labour leader saying he's 10/10 on the EU...is that more, or less out of touch with the communities in the North that voted Leave in big numbers?
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
CmHkqmTWAAAgIWz.jpg


lol
 
E

ElNarez

Banned
CyclopsRock said:
But Burnham or Cooper or even Kendall wouldn't rip the party apart. They wouldn't have an elite leadership who has no support in the PLP or in constituency parties. There are worse things than losing an election, and the fact that Corbyn's going to lose the election as well as stop it functioning as a party is just the icing on the cake or the nail in his coffin or the piss on his cornflakes or whatever other noun in his noun metaphor you want.
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Yeah, but, as was proven nine months ago, they wouldn't win an election for Labour party leader, so, again, the point is moot.

Jeremy Corbyn didn't make the PLP dysfunctional. The PLP made itself dysfunctional. Which, fine, they can have legitimate differences of opinion, it's their party, but, if you want to lead the Labour party, you gotta have a plan for the alternative, and you gotta have a leader to put that plan into action. And since that leader is gonna need to be elected to run the party, it's gonna have to be someone who can win a leadership contest.

So far the PLP have brought up nothing, and no one. I'm perfectly fine with Corbyn leaving, they could even give him a big Viking funeral as a tribute to scandinavian social-democracy, but: what do they want to replace him with? Make a case for someone, anyone, that could be better than him. Otherwise you're just looking like an idiot screaming into the void.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Jeremy Corbyn is not a Nordic social-democrat. He's a freaking trot. He is much further to the left than Bernie Sander's. His communications director is an apologist for *Stalin*.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
ElNarez said:
Yeah, but, as was proven nine months ago, they wouldn't win an election for Labour party leader, so, again, the point is moot.

Jeremy Corbyn didn't make the PLP dysfunctional. The PLP made itself dysfunctional. Which, fine, they can have legitimate differences of opinion, it's their party, but, if you want to lead the Labour party, you gotta have a plan for the alternative, and you gotta have a leader to put that plan into action. And since that leader is gonna need to be elected to run the party, it's gonna have to be someone who can win a leadership contest.

So far the PLP have brought up nothing, and no one. I'm perfectly fine with Corbyn leaving, they could even give him a big Viking funeral as a tribute to scandinavian social-democracy, but: what do they want to replace him with? Make a case for someone, anyone, that could be better than him. Otherwise you're just looking like an idiot screaming into the void.
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I'm waiting for someone in the PLP to make the suggestion of summoning the spirit of Clement Attlee to lead the party. Only, he was probably too left wing for most of them.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
30yearsofhurt said:
Why do so many left wingers use 'Blairite' as an insult. I can only imagine they all had collective amnesia and forget what happened to the prosperity of the UK between 1997-2007.
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You mean the years when noted not-Blairite Gordon Brown held the reins of the economy? :^)
 
M

Moze

Banned
Maledict said:
So just to confirm, you aren't reading what I am posting or what Labour itself are saying?

Alan Johnson is not a tabloid.
Welsh Labour is not a tabloid.
Will Straw, director of the remain campaign, is not a tabloid.
The BBC is not a tabloid.

He deliberately undermined and sabotaged the campaign, which was against Labour Party policy - hence this rebellion. They withheld voter information ffs - you know, the details of all those labour voters in the north who voted to leave and who were saying the week before the referendum they didn't know which way the party was voting?

Corbyn is not exclusively to blame for this - Cameron shares the majority. But he absolutely contributed to the vote result in no small way, and at least Cameron campaigned his damn ass off. He didn't campaign with expect - he hardly campaigne and when he did it was worse than doing nothing. He talked about freedom of movement and Turkey the day before the vote!
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Again, this is doesn't mean a whole lot. These people can pass the blame and claim Corbyn was not interested if they want, but that does not make it true.

And the BBC is a borderline tabloid btw. The BBC article in the OP is literally a tabloid article. A source told them this and a source suggested that. It's nonsense and has no place in an objective argument.

There is no proof he has done any of what you have suggested. There are rumours. There are opinions. There are some people up north saying some things. We can't be discussing rumours, opinions and anecdotes in an objective argument on such an important issue.

I could easily argue this is just an excuse to get him out as they have been trying to do since he got in.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
"Senior union figures meeting today to try to "end it" - whatever that means. Aka the men in grey suits"


Don't feel good about the unions willingness to compromise...

Moze said:
Again, this is doesn't mean a whole lot. These people can pass the blame and claim Corbyn was not interested if they want, but that does not make it true.

And the BBC is a borderline tabloid btw. The BBC article in the OP is literally a tabloid article. A source told them this and a source suggested that. It's nonsense and has no place in an objective argument.

There is no proof he has done any of what you have suggested. There are rumours. There are opinions. There are some people up north saying some things. We can't be discussing rumours, opinions and anecdotes in an objective argument on such an important issue.

I could easily argue this is just an excuse to get him out as they have been trying to do since he got in.
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What is the point in anyone trying to talk to you then? You're willing to dismiss all evidence so this is a waste of time.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Buzzman said:
I guess the Party has spoken, can't have a leftist in charge, much better to be a Tory clone that'll happily implement human rights-breaching austerity measures.
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"Tory Clone" lol. Do you think any possible Labour leader would have led us crashing out of the EU? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you really can't see the difference between the Labour and Conservative parties you are free to vote for the SWP or someone like that.
 
M

Maledict

Member
Moze said:
Again, this is doesn't mean a whole lot. These people can pass the blame and claim Corbyn was not interested if they want, but that does not make it true.

And the BBC is a borderline tabloid btw. The BBC article in the OP is literally a tabloid article. A source told them this and a source suggested that. It's nonsense and has no place in an objective argument.

There is no proof he has done any of what you have suggested. There are rumours. There are opinions. There are some people up north saying some things. We can't be discussing rumours, opinions and anecdotes in an objective argument on such an important issue.

I could easily argue this is just an excuse to get him out as they have been trying to do since he got in.
Click to expand...

Okay, so just to confirm you're ignoring any and all evidence placed in front of you. The Welsh Labour Party (hardly a bastion of right wingers!) are lying. Alan Johnson is lying. The emails journalists have seen are lies. Will Straw is lying.

Everyone, in facts, is lying to take out Jeremy Corbyn because "Blairite". The literal physical proof of what he did (amended speeches, schedule of visits, refusal to campaign, refusal to share voter data) is what exactly? That oneI can't explain away but I'm sure you can. I mean, we do actually have physical proof this happened?
 
T

Thornton Reed

Member
the situation at the Labour party is more depressing than what is going on with Brexit. I'm really sad about what is playing out.

Corbyn is a decent man and he needs to do the decent thing and step a side. He has been nothing more than Cameron's punch bag in the commons for the last 9 months. His brand of politics isn't going to work against a slick operator like Cameron.

I'm joining the Labour party to vote against him in case of a leadership election. The country needs strong opposition and he has never been the man to deliver that
 
M

Moze

Banned
Hazzuh said:
"Senior union figures meeting today to try to "end it" - whatever that means. Aka the men in grey suits"


Don't feel good about the unions willingness to compromise...



What is the point in anyone trying to talk to you then? You're willing to dismiss all evidence so this is a waste of time.
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What evidence? All evidence that has been provided are opinions, anecdotes and a BBC article that doesn't really say a whole lot. That's ignoring the fact that a strong majority of Labour voters voted in. I do not understand what exactly is going on here.


Maledict said:
Okay, so just to confirm you're ignoring any and all evidence placed in front of you. The Welsh Labour Party (hardly a bastion of right wingers!) are lying. Alan Johnson is lying. The emails journalists have seen are lies. Will Straw is lying.

Everyone, in facts, is lying to take out Jeremy Corbyn because "Blairite". The literal physical proof of what he did (amended speeches, schedule of visits, refusal to campaign, refusal to share voter data) is what exactly? That oneI can't explain away but I'm sure you can. I mean, we do actually have physical proof this happened?
Click to expand...

Stop being so hostile about this. It is absolutely possible that those people are lying to deflect the blame. The leaked emails taken out of context don't really say much.

Do you have proof any of that happened? In an objective argument, you need proof.
 
H

Hazzuh

Member
Moze said:
What evidence? All evidence that has been provided are opinions, anecdotes and a BBC article that doesn't really say a whole lot. That's ignoring the fact that a strong majority of Labour voters voted in. I do not understand what exactly is going on here.




Stop being so hostile about this. It is absolutely possible that those people are lying to deflect the blame. The leaked emails taken out of context don't really say much.

Do you have proof any of that happened? In an objective argument, you need proof.
Click to expand...

What proof would satisfy you? You think everyone is willing to fabricate evidence so what could anyone possibly show you? Talking to you is a waste of time because you aren't having an argument in good faith.
 
T

travisbickle

Member
Bony Manifesto said:
I think the unilateral nuclear disarmament of the UK is the big one.
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That and nationalisation of utility and service industries were in the Labour manifesto before Tony Blair wrote them out.

As for nuclear disarmament

51 per cent of people back full renewal of Trident, while a total of 49 per cent prefer either non-nuclear submarines or reject any renewal.
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link

Look at that 51/49! If we are going to renew Trident without question, can we leave the fucking EU too already.
 
M

Maledict

Member
You are demanding a standard of proof that is unobtainable, and you know it.

But here's one - voter data. Labour refused to share voter data with the Remain Campaign.

Here's another - he went on holiday in the middle of the biggest political campaign and vote in my lifetime.

A third? The speech planner diagram that was leaked showing where the EU had been scrubbed out of the schedule by Jeremy's office?

I'm really not sure why you are choosing this hill to die on. Jeremy has always been opposed to the EU, he voted against it in the 70s. Even last Summer he and John McDonnell were saying they might vote for Brexit until the party forced them back. Numerous people connected to both have said that the left should vote out of Europe. We know that labour massively failed to get its message through, and throughout the campaign there were significant worries about how it wasn't pulling its weight (and the shockingly high % of labour voters who didn't know what the platform was).
 
B

Bony Manifesto

Member
travisbickle said:
That and nationalisation of utility and service industries were in the Labour manifesto before Tony Blair wrote them out.

As for nuclear disarmament



link

Look at that 51/49! If we are going to renew Trident without question, can we leave the fucking EU too already.
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Er okay. I wasn't endorsing it one way or the other, just giving you an example where Corbyn stands way to the left of Sanders, which was what you asked for.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
When the opposition tells you to go, six days, after messing up the country... you're pretty much done in politics.
 
P

Par Score

Member
NekoFever said:
MPs need to form a new party and let Labour die. Jesus Christ.
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Just what they're planning to do. "So what is the immediate future of the Labour Party? There is a real possibility of Corbyn getting on the ballot paper and being re-elected. At that stage 200 MPs may form a new party. And if need be I will join them.

But of course it's Jeremy who's "tearing Labour apart", not these traitorous bastards.

P44 said:
What are peoples thoughts on Dave Miliband making a return? The unions would shit the bed but..
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He couldn't beat noted failure Ed Miliband. Think that one through.

Maledict said:
Jeremy Corbyn is not a Nordic social-democrat. He's a freaking trot. He is much further to the left than Bernie Sander's. His communications director is an apologist for *Stalin*.
Click to expand...

I would bloody well hope so, how is that a criticism?

We need someone to pull against the rightward drift of our politics before we become another America, where your options range from "Actual Nazis" all the way through to "Centre Right".
 
T

travisbickle

Member
Bony Manifesto said:
Er okay. I wasn't endorsing it one way or the other, just giving you an example where Corbyn stands way to the left of Sanders, which was what you asked for.
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Sorry.

I think Corbyn's shit, but I get real annoyed at the level of political discourse that call him "hard left" or a "trotskyite". Like some people think Trotsky stood on a podium and talked about renationalising the railways.
 
T

twobear

sputum-flecked apoplexy
travisbickle said:
Sorry.

I think Corbyn's shit, but I get real annoyed at the level of political discourse that call him "hard left" or a "trotskyite". Like some people think Trotsky stood on a podium and talked about renationalising the railways.
Click to expand...

Trotsky was a noted Keynesian honestly.
 
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