CyclopsRock
Member
That's not all, though. He made some bad mistakes.
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UK Labour Leadership Crisis: Corbyn retained as leader by strong margin
- Thread starter Hazzuh
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That's not all, though. He made some bad mistakes.
Peter Ian Staker
Member
Everything you stated in the second paragraph are indication of Tory dominance both in terms of popularity and ideology
Everyone seems to have to follow their ideology and pander to their voters to have any hope to win.
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
CyclopsRock
Member
But I don't think that's true at all. If you look at Blair's manifestos, do you really see "Tory ideology"?
Which unfortunately is the biggest triumph of neoliberalism. Any other economic ideas aren't realistic, just have to double down on the austerity and privatisation. Austerity isn't working? Doesn't matter, you have to balance the books no matter what.
I had hoped that Corbyn might deliver an alternative, but so far he's not managed it. I doubt he will either if the level of infighting continues.
I see building an extension on Thatcher and Major's house
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
You don't need Corbyn to offer that. Gordon Brown was focused on fiscal expansionism (that's why we had the double-dip! The economy was recovering then the Conservatives came in and trashed it again by cutting back Brown's economic support). Ed Miliband came out in favour of a Keynesian stance numerous times. The vast majority of the Labour party is anti-austerity.
CyclopsRock
Member
Tories going for 50%
Huw_Dawson
Member
Bear in mind the new PM bump of a few percent.
Wait until after this conference season to see what the actual state of play is - at the moment the public are generally optimistic about May and the new cabinet.
After this conference season, we'll see what the state of play with UKIP is (do they get any media coverage? Do they implode? Is there a major gaffe?) and more importantly Labour.
If Corbyn wins, the party splits. If Corbyn LOSES, the party may well split.
From there, the left will have to be forced to re-align. Which personally I'm all for.
Wait until after this conference season to see what the actual state of play is - at the moment the public are generally optimistic about May and the new cabinet.
After this conference season, we'll see what the state of play with UKIP is (do they get any media coverage? Do they implode? Is there a major gaffe?) and more importantly Labour.
If Corbyn wins, the party splits. If Corbyn LOSES, the party may well split.
From there, the left will have to be forced to re-align. Which personally I'm all for.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/04/justin-trudeau-labour-jonathan-ashworth
I agree with this, Labour needs a positive election message.
I agree with this, Labour needs a positive election message.
Yep, I think some of us have been saying this for a while. Labour, and Corbyn in particular, are definitely entirely by what they are against. It's very hard to win an election by just being against stuff. Even when the Tories were absolutely loathed by the country in 1997, Blair still focused on the positives and what he would do and not just being against the Tories.
'Education, education, education... Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime... Etc etc)
Agreed. You're not going to win Conservative voters (and thus an election) by banging on about how awful the conservatives are. People who hate the Tories are generally already voting Labour
Commander Jameson
Member
I wasn't sure where Ashworth got this from:
Is there any data to support this?
Also, the idea that Labour should be promoting a positive approach is fine. Would that not be helped by ALL pulling in the same direction?
Smith's policies are broadly similar to Corbyn's from what I've seen and both sets seem to be positive, so I'm not clear on where the perception that Labour is simply railing against the Tories, has come from. I thought the complaint since the end of June was that Labour hadn't been opposing the Tories.
Is there any data to support this?
Also, the idea that Labour should be promoting a positive approach is fine. Would that not be helped by ALL pulling in the same direction?
Smith's policies are broadly similar to Corbyn's from what I've seen and both sets seem to be positive, so I'm not clear on where the perception that Labour is simply railing against the Tories, has come from. I thought the complaint since the end of June was that Labour hadn't been opposing the Tories.
"Ensure electoral victory" is probably optimistic, but there's recent data to support a positive response to promises to invest money in publicly valued services right?
In literal terms, yes.
Contextually, it can mean 'the overarching establishment looking to shape the narrative against the things I think are true'.
CyclopsRock
Member
Almost everything is helped by everyone pulling in the same direction, but if it's not a direction that you think you should be travelling in...
Men who sleep with men. The Corbynites are extremely homophobic tbh
The party is already gone. The split is there for all to see and will remain so for a few decades.
Politics happens far faster than that. Even at my most negative I don't think we are looking at 'decades' here. All parties go to their extreme fringes when beaten, and then mo e back to the Centre when people get tired of just being protesters. It will happen fast than you think (and slower than I'd like!).
How many elections did Brown and Miliband win as leader though?
That's for sure. Corbyn's already promising £500bn of spending, paid for by borrowing, and a smart campaign that highlights exactly what can be achieved with that money across the entire country should hopefully pay dividends.
Corbyns campaign is not smart at all. I get the literature. He launched his campaign talking about inequality and pushing the publishing pay rules onto small businesses. Maybe it's working for you, but just glancing across the press and media from all sides does not show a confident, smart campaign that's reaching out to people. He's preaching to the converted.
Linkstrikesback
Member
If you mean the general elections, likely the same amount that Corbyn will.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Corbyn's ten pledges are nonsense. Meaningless. They cannot be taken seriously.
As vague as Miliband's "An NHS with time to care". What are his policies?
In Corbyn's defence he goes in to more detail on his website. They are still fairly vague though. Here is what they say about reducing inequality:
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
I've already seen them worded in 3 different ways, from that image to the website and the email he sent.
I'm never going to understand redistribution for the sake of redistribution. Work to boost the wages of the lowest, use education, specifically better K-12 funded on a needs based model, a better welfare system that helps and incentivises, a tax system that isn't focused on bad taxes to allow investment and finance to flow to the bottom. Corbyn's plans are such a 1960's view of the world. There's an absolute wealth of literature that he can draw upon to relaunch a more modern PLP, but he seems utterly disinterested in it.
Nicktendo86
Member
The yougov poll also shows support for brexit, when don't knows are taken out, is 52-48, exactly the same as the result with slightly more regretting voting remain than the other way around. So much for a so called regret. I know this is the wrong thread for that but interesting all the same.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
...I don't think anyone wants redistribution "for the sake of redistribution"? They want redistribution because poorer people have a materially worse quality of life than wealthier people, often through no fault of their own, and redistribution is at least one way of making them less poor.
Not British, but have been following this thread. Just wanted to post that whoever made Corbyn's pledge card should be fired
out of a cannon into the sun
Camp Freddie
Member
That's a very good article. Labour need to confront the Tories on the economy and explain how their policy of infrastructure investment will be better.
The problem is that Corbyn and Smith are basically marketing labour as being against austerity and capitalist fatcats, because we need equality and must support the poor on moral grounds.
That might be true, but people won't vote purely on moral grounds. He needs to convince people he has a credible economic plan.
The Tories are winning with their argument that austerity is a necessary 'harsh medicine' to avoid economic collapse, job losses, inflation, negative equity and all the other things that a lot of voters fear. People can condescendingly say that Corbyn's ideas of equality and social justice are "nice", but we simply "can't afford them".
Trudeau seems to have won because he exposed austerity as the emperor's new clothes. He argued that smart investment would rescue the economy and not just be a nice thing to do.
Osbourne's economic plans have not worked well and the Tories currently lack any economic policy now that Brexit has destroyed the deficit reduction/fiscal contraction plans. The Tories are divided between fiscal expansionist one nationers (probably including May) and the austerity brigade.
This should leave Labour in an excellent position, but Corbyn and the leadership contest means they have to spend their time appealing to the socialist core to get their leadership votes.
Using social justice, worker's rights and anti-corporate messages will win the leadership battle. But it will be a phyrric victory that will cost them the war.
CyclopsRock
Member
Thing with those pledges though, is how many is it even possible to disagree with? The one about public ownership I suppose, but who is going into the election saying "we're gonna fucking bomb everyone!"?
Randy Lanzarote
Member
Has Owen Smith released his 10 pledges yet? Would like to see how they compare.
Because we are clearly going through some kind of pledge inflation, Smith actually released 20 policy commitments:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...p-election-speech_uk_5798849de4b06d7c426e0a8d
Apparently he also released costings for the policies. I can't seem to find a link anywhere to that though.
'Fair taxes on the wealthy' sounds exactly like redistribution for the sake of redistribution. And given Corbyn's ideological leanings I bet my car it is.
Also jesus christ outside the education/health/infrastructure projects those policies are awful.
Camp Freddie
Member
Holy fucking shitballs. My son could do a better design, and he can't even read yet!
...in fact, my son would just draw a picture of a dinosaur fighting a tiger with a robot-knight on its back, which would still be a clearer message than the vagueness of Corbyn's card.
When evaluating political pledges, I found that some very good advice is to consider the opposite pledge. If the opposite is something that nobody could ever conceivably ask for, then the pledge is meaningless.
e.g.
Nobody would ever argue for "A poor job in a poor economy" or "a volatile housing market".
However, someone might conceivably argue that "we are spending too much money on nannying young children at school with excessive teacher intervention." Or they might argue that we need to "take more time to understand and address the problems of persistent young offenders, instead of condemning them to a vicious cycle of punishment and recidivism".
Edit: Whether you agree with Smith's pledges or not, they are a meaningful set of proposals to do specific actions. Corbyn's only specific pledge seemed to be "I'll take your pledge 17 and raise you to 500 million"
Shami Chakrabarti has been given a peerage. Surely Corbyn must realise how this would look just a few weeks after she finished her antisemitism inquiry for labour, especially as he's previously said he wouldn't give out any peerages.
I think Shami is great and she's been head of Liberty for as long as I can remember but the optics of this are terrible.
I think Shami is great and she's been head of Liberty for as long as I can remember but the optics of this are terrible.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Corbyn's Pledge card is definitive proof that he is a complete fucking clueless idiot.
Wish I'd never given the bastard a chance. There's clearly very little but cotton wool between his ears.
Wish I'd never given the bastard a chance. There's clearly very little but cotton wool between his ears.
Is he running for PM or Miss America?
It's a shame that his website's 10 pledges don't include that particular pledge: http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/10_pledges
This one is similar but differently worded - http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/environment
Ah so it's absolute bollocks then.
I would love someone to come up with costed proposals for transitioning the UK to more renewables. I just don't think it can be done.
If we could build them cheaply my personal preference is the French model of Nuclear.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Trump?
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