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[kmag]

Irelands approval for the EU is around the 80%, and it's been pretty consistent.

When asked how they would vote if there was referendum on membership of the EU, 80% of Irish citizens suggest they would vote to remain - slightly higher than recorded in 2015.

It takes a special imagination to pick the country with basically the highest levels of consistent EU approval and somehow suggest they're on the road to exit.

 

[Skellig Gra]

The only people that bring up the British Empire are foreigners with no clue about UK politics.

The British Empire plays no part in the political discourse of the UK, none whatsoever.

It's just a lazy cliche dragged out from time to time, similar to the way that modern day Germany and it's people are tagged with being Nazi's.

I dunno, ever watched "Very British Problems"? Fairly confident everyone on there is British and they identify British exceptionalism in many aspects of life.

 

[Interface_2037]

It takes a special imagination to pick the country with basically the highest levels of consistent EU approval and somehow suggest they're on the road to exit.

But that's not what I said is it.

I said there is a possibility of a rise in anti EU sentiment, but probably not enough for it to exit.

You can have one without the other.

Current Irish sentiment to the EU is based on what it has done for Ireland, but going forward, the funds that paid for that will no longer be a factor as Ireland is now paying for others, and even more so now the UK is leaving.

Things change, quickly. Brexit & Trump should tell you that.

 

[CrunchyB]

The only people that bring up the British Empire are foreigners with no clue about UK politics.

Then I guess I'm in good company because nobody seems to understand UK politics, the politicians included.

The British Empire plays no part in the political discourse of the UK, none whatsoever.

That is untrue and you know it. Even in the Netherlands there are always some politicians musing about how life was great when we ruled the world. When the VOC was a mighty power and we made a lot of money by trading slaves, subjugating peoples and various acts of genocide. Ah, the good old days! Nostalgia is a powerful drug.

It's just a lazy cliche dragged out from time to time, similar to the way that modern day Germany and it's people are tagged with being Nazi's.

Lazy google:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-the-british-empire-poll-finds-a6821206.html

v.s

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...azi-holocaust-Angela-Merkel-tells-Israel.html

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Of course we can't do whatever we like and face no consequences, but there's really nothing unreasonable about what Brexiters are asking for. There's people on this page saying that Leaver sentiment is borne from some British supreriority complex, when all we're really asking for is the same freedom of choice available to any sovereign nation. South Korea? New Zealand? These countries set their own immigration policy. They trade with the world. They have cordial international relationships. Take all the emotion out of this leaving the EU thing and all we're really asking for is to be treated like any other country. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of man!

You do know that many trade deals demand relaxed immigration laws right? Not like any country has 100% 'free choice' in a globalized world. To move to the EU to live and work freely (thanks for removing my rights, btw) I need to prove that I can get a job in 3 months or have enough savings to support myself if I want to stay longer than 3 months.

 

[Uzzy]

Yeah, I was responding to the OP. Second reading is barely more relevant than first, though. At the end of the day, the third reading is what counts and is where the opportunity to amend comes in, and the general point still stands - I've seen too many people who think that Article 50 has now been triggered or that Article 50 legislation has passed into law, when neither of those things is true.

People really need to be taught how parliament works.

For sure. I was taught a little bit of civics in school, but most of my knowledge comes just from being a nerd and actually enjoying reading about how bills are passed.

I particularly love the chart 9.3 of the white paper

One of the countries doesn't even exist anymore. Anyone guess which one?

And Liechtenstein isn't even a real country! Shocking stuff.

 

[TimmmV]

18-24 - 64%
25-39 - 65%
40-54 - 66%
55-64 - 74%
65 and over - 90%

Brexit has really made me hate old people.

If the brakes on my car fail, but I can still vary the speed between 50mph and 70mph by taking my foot off the accelerator, I wouldn't say I'm in control of the vehicle.

Better turn it towards that cliff then!

HOWEVER - whilst I don't think people of my generation below think directly of 'empire', I *do* think there is a very specific 'we're great we should go it alone' mentality that isn't present in anywhere near the same degree in mainland Europe. The notion of being stronger as part of a union, and that we give up somethings to get more in return, is far more alien to a lot of British people than it should be.

Yeah, the empire thing isn't really fair (although the WWII/Churchill worship/nostalgia is reasonably prevalent and not that far removed). However the English really do like to overestimate their own importance on cultural stuff, I've got mates who insist the UK has the most culture in Europe, based largely on things like Benicàssim, or that English language (i.e. usually American) TV/Music/Film is popular in Europe, all the while without really ever bothering to watch or listen to foreign film/tv/music. The arrogance can be fairly well demonstrated by English football too, with loads of people being certain of how the Premier League is the "best league in the world" only to then find their teams all getting routinely beaten the moment they play in the CL.

Obviously, not everyone is like this, but English culture is fairly inward looking and superior. As someone from a fairly international background who has grown up in the UK, its probably the thing about English culture that pisses me off the most

 

[Bony Manifesto]

As noted before, Brexiters don't need a basis for spouting their bullshit with utter conviction.

“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”

Er, I think people who are anti-Brexit are also entirely certain of themselves, and have no doubts whatsoever about their view.

The only people who really changed their mind on the issue are MPs, who flip-flopped completely on the issue post-referendum, and I'm not sure I'd describe such brazen populism as evidence of wisdom!

 

[tuxfool]

Er, I think people who are anti-Brexit are also entirely certain of themselves, and have no doubts whatsoever about their view.

The only people who really changed their mind on the issue are MPs, who flip-flopped completely on the issue post-referendum, and I'm not sure I'd describe such brazen populism as evidence of wisdom!

Their view is supported by all the data available in the status-quo. Brexiter data is mostly fallacies and fanfiction. They provided next to nothing valuable to support the argument other than feelings.
----
On another note here is a brief comment from the Director of macroeconomics at NIESR:

http://www.niesr.ac.uk/media/niesrs...omments-brexit-white-paper-12792#.WJNgWlOLQdU

basically it says the same things we know. The white paper contains very little meaningful information pertinent of the exit.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

You do know that many trade deals demand relaxed immigration laws right? Not like any country has 100% 'free choice' in a globalized world. To move to the EU to live and work freely (thanks for removing my rights, btw) I need to prove that I can get a job in 3 months or have enough savings to support myself if I want to stay longer than 3 months.

I'm not really seeing the problem. There's plenty of countries you can move to if you have a job there.

Better turn it towards that cliff then!

I think it's more like one of those gravelly emergency exit ramps, but the metaphor is getting a tad strained now!

 

[phisheep]

I think you're giving that too much credence, 'They' just want 'Foreigners" out.

EU immigration was an easy target, for all the reasons you mention, once people wake up and realise that coming out of the EU will not alter our immigration numbers, I wonder what people will be calling for next.

I don't think that is a warranted conclusion. I talked to a *lot* of people in the run-up to the referendum and in the main they were not against foreigners as such (though there were a few out-and-out racists, including a very well-travelled German-speaking Welshman). More typically the were against immigration from Europe, and usually eastern Europe in particular.

For example, a senior nurse in the NHS who despaired of the Spanish nurses she had to deal with - who were ill-disciplined, inclined to handle medication themselves without reference to a doctor, and were nowhere near as good with patients or with the English language as the Indian nurses that she used to have.

Another example, the owner of the curry place across the road from me despairs of not being able to bring in decent cooks from Bengal and of being forced to use Romanian cooks who have not the faintest idea what to do with a curry.

It's an unhelpful and gross oversimplification to consider that everyone voting Leave did so for racist reasons.

 

[The Rain King]

Wikipedia definition of White paper

A white paper is an authoritative report or guide that informs readers concisely about a complex issue and presents the issuing body's philosophy on the matter. It is meant to help readers understand an issue, solve a problem, or make a decision. Following the UK Government 'Brexit' White Paper of 2 February 2017, the term may alternatively mean 'meaningless, delusionary collection of blurb on the way to self-destruction'.

 

[Zaph]

I don't think that is a warranted conclusion. I talked to a *lot* of people in the run-up to the referendum and in the main they were not against foreigners as such (though there were a few out-and-out racists, including a very well-travelled German-speaking Welshman). More typically the were against immigration from Europe, and usually eastern Europe in particular.

For example, a senior nurse in the NHS who despaired of the Spanish nurses she had to deal with - who were ill-disciplined, inclined to handle medication themselves without reference to a doctor, and were nowhere near as good with patients or with the English language as the Indian nurses that she used to have.

Another example, the owner of the curry place across the road from me despairs of not being able to bring in decent cooks from Bengal and of being forced to use Romanian cooks who have not the faintest idea what to do with a curry.

It's an unhelpful and gross oversimplification to consider that everyone voting Leave did so for racist reasons.

Why I take issue with using these 'perfectly reasonable' examples, and why it feels very disingenuous (especially from someone like yourself who is smart enough know this response was coming), is that they're used to justify a nuclear option.

If your TV isn't working, and you try to fix it, good for you. But if instead you throw away all your electronics, it's fair to assume there is a bigger underlying issue there beyond being angry at a broken TV.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Makes you wonder how people who either experienced European fascism or at least got a whiff of it in their early childhood would fall prey to right wing propaganda and lies. I'm not even trying to be condescending or an ageist here but I'd genuinly like to know how right wing politics resonate positively with a generation that either heavily suffered from fascism as it happened or at least suffered the consequences in the years and decades afterwards.

 

[Flintty]

And all of those reasons were complete and utter bullshit.

I've been at work so apologies for the delay in reply. I'm not going to speak for the masses but personally, my reasons for voting leave were good reasons, valid and honest. It's not your job to call it bullshit, you don't know me.

I am glad you were not among those that, the day after the referendum, rush to tell me to get the fuck out of the UK, that it was time for me to pack up and leave, to go "where people will like you, not here anymore", etc.

Am I thinking this will crash the UK?
Maybe, maybe not.
Will I feel regret if this will happen?
Possibly, because I've always thought of London as my second home (10 years here).

I bought a flat here, I have the utmost interest in seeing things working out for the best; however, after the shitshow of the leavers, all the racism, the horrible horrible things I have been told, the sterotype of "EU come here to claim benefit"

I truly am sorry to read this and yes I was horrified by the reaction of the minority of leave voters following the vote. Deplorable and not acceptable. Sadly, most of GAF seem to think all 'leavers' are a hivemind. We are not.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I don't think that is a warranted conclusion. I talked to a *lot* of people in the run-up to the referendum and in the main they were not against foreigners as such (though there were a few out-and-out racists, including a very well-travelled German-speaking Welshman). More typically the were against immigration from Europe, and usually eastern Europe in particular.

For example, a senior nurse in the NHS who despaired of the Spanish nurses she had to deal with - who were ill-disciplined, inclined to handle medication themselves without reference to a doctor, and were nowhere near as good with patients or with the English language as the Indian nurses that she used to have.

Another example, the owner of the curry place across the road from me despairs of not being able to bring in decent cooks from Bengal and of being forced to use Romanian cooks who have not the faintest idea what to do with a curry.

It's an unhelpful and gross oversimplification to consider that everyone voting Leave did so for racist reasons.

I would like to know how those anecdotal evidence warrant to generalize millions of people.

Because a few Spanish nurses weren't doing a good job then all Spanish people are like that? Is that an inherent trait of Spanish culture?

Also are Romanian the only people who don't know how to cook curry? And even if that's the case does preventing them from coming and working in the U.K. at all reasonable regarding the issue at hand?

Side question: is there a specific reason as to why he was forced to hire Romanian?

 

[Zaph]

I've been at work so apologies for the delay in reply. I'm not going to speak for the masses but personally, my reasons for voting leave were good reasons, valid and honest. It's not your job to call it bullshit, you don't know me.

Then please do explain them, ideally with facts and evidence to corroborate claims, as well as how that reason justifies putting our country's economy and future in jepordy.

Remainers are dying to hear just one good fact-based reason to leave that is worth the cost.

 

[tuxfool]

Side question: is their a specific reason as to why he was forced to hire Romanian?

British were too lazy to stick with such a job. That curry place owner is a fool if he thinks kicking out the Romanians is magically going to bring people over from Bengal to replace them.

I've been at work so apologies for the delay in reply. I'm not going to speak for the masses but personally, my reasons for voting leave were good reasons, valid and honest. It's not your job to call it bullshit, you don't know me..

I'm not sure you're the one to determine they're valid and honest. My opinions that we should have flying pigs are valid and honest too.

 

[TimmmV]

Makes you wonder how people who either experienced European fascism or at least got a whiff of it in their early childhood would fall prey to right wing propaganda and lies. I'm not even trying to be condescending or an ageist here but I'd genuinly like to know how right wing politics resonate positively with a generation that either heavily suffered from fascism as it happened or at least suffered the consequences in the years and decades afterwards.

My German grandparents might be a good answer to this - my Opa was in the Hitler youth, and Oma was an ethnic German who had to flee somewhere in the Ukraine when Russia started fighting back. The country was ruined for their youth, and my Oma had to deal with family permanently stuck in the DDR while she was in the West. Both of them think Brexit is beyond moronic, and have been worried about us over here basically ever since lol

Whereas my English grandparents both grew up in fairly comfortable middle class families (their fathers both had jobs deemed too important for them to fight in the war), and then subsequently enjoyed an extremely comfortable life with all the stereotypical benefits that baby-boomers are accused of reaping. They voted to leave, and haven't been particularly humble about it since the referendum either.

This is a slightly disingenuous example, because my German grandparents are horrifically racist against Turks/Muslims in Germany, so have fallen for right wing rubbish to an extent, they just know what happens when you use it as an excuse to just burn everything down

I would like to know how those anecdotal evidence warrant to generalize millions of people.

Because a few Spanish nurses weren't doing a good job then all Spanish people are like that? Is that an inherent trait of Spanish culture?

Also are Romanian the only people who don't know how to cook curry? And even if that's the case does preventing them from coming and working in the U.K. at all reasonable regarding the issue at hand?

Side question: is there a specific reason as to why he was forced to hire Romanian?

To add more anecdotal evidence; my (Spanish) sister in law works for a big international company, and says that the British and Dutch employees there are the ones that will always be wasting time around the coffee machine or making noise over the rest of the office.

She just doesn't then make the generalisation that those nationalities are a problem, and if it wasn't for the EU they could be hiring Indian workers who wouldn't be doing that

 

[Lucreto]

But that's not what I said is it.

I said there is a possibility of a rise in anti EU sentiment, but probably not enough for it to exit.

You can have one without the other.

Current Irish sentiment to the EU is based on what it has done for Ireland, but going forward, the funds that paid for that will no longer be a factor as Ireland is now paying for others, and even more so now the UK is leaving.

Things change, quickly. Brexit & Trump should tell you that.

You are forgetting the last few years of Ireland bent over Europe's knee and getting a damn good spanking over its finances.

Yet still have an 80% approval rating. If that didn't inspire much anti Eu sentiment I doubt Brexit will.

 

[operon]

Like I said, lets wait and see, Ireland is the one on it's own now.

If you think the likes of Germany, France and the others will cut you any slack any more over tax arrangements & increased contributions without the UK to block such moves, then you are deluding yourselves.

You're nothing to them.

Your absolutely deluded or want another country to go down the shit hole like the uk

 

[operon]

Sure does feel great knowing we are leaving the EU because people felt we didn't have sovereignty.

Parliament has “remained sovereign throughout our membership to the EU” despite people “not always feeling like that”, the Brexit White Paper says.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...endum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html

 

[tuxfool]

Sure does feel great knowing we are leaving the EU because people felt we didn't have sovereignty. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...endum-campaign-brussels-article-a7559556.html

Those all important "feelings".

 

[Jackpot]

Diane Abott, Shadow Home Secretary and 1/3 of the triumvirate seen to rule Labour, bailed on the vote citing a "migraine".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ticle-50-vote-due-to-migraine-her-office-says

Diane Abbott has been accused of cowardice and asked to apologise by a fellow Labour MP after missing the historic article 50 vote on Wednesday evening.

Despite claims from the shadow home secretary’s office that she had fallen ill with a sudden migraine, John Mann claimed she “gave herself a sick note” rather than help to trigger Britain’s exit from the EU.

The absence of Abbott, a close ally of Jeremy Corbyn, meant she did not have to choose between leaving the shadow cabinet or disappointing a majority of voters in Hackney North and Stoke Newington who wish to remain in the EU.

Appearing on the BBC’s News channel, Mann, the MP for Bassetlaw, said her failure to vote was “quite extraordinary”.

“We have some very, very ill people who turned up to parliament to vote yesterday who are so sick they cannot carry on with their work as MPs. They voted and she gave herself a sick note at 5pm.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Diane Abott, Shadow Home Secretary and 1/3 of the triumvirate seen to rule Labour, bailed on the vote citing a "migraine".

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ticle-50-vote-due-to-migraine-her-office-says

Well John Mann is a cunt so I can't put any faith in anything that turd says. Not that there's no truth in her tapping out instead of voting but he's the last person I would listen to when it comes to what's going on in his party.

 

[phisheep]

Just to clarify a bit.

I would like to know how those anecdotal evidence warrant to generalize millions of people.

Of course it doesn't, and it isn't meant to. I meant it only as a counter to the rather lazy assumption that all leave voters are racists/xenophobes. For that, anecdote should suffice (and particularly here, as I picked these as representative of the many people I talked to pre-referendum).

Because a few Spanish nurses weren't doing a good job then all Spanish people are like that? Is that an inherent trait of Spanish culture?

Strange, isn't it, that you immediately leap to a xenophobic explanation? No, that's not what it is at all (and please also remember that I'm relaying somebody else's views and not mine). As you'd expect, I enquired about the reasons.

No, it is simply because that is the way Spanish nurses were trained to work in the Spanish system, which operates very differently to the way ours does. Over there, nurses have considerably more medical responsibility and discharge their duties differently.

Also are Romanian the only people who don't know how to cook curry? And even if that's the case does preventing them from coming and working in the U.K. at all reasonable regarding the issue at hand?

According to the owner, only Bengalis know how to cook curry. It isn't by any means restricted to Romanians. However, given the government's attempts to reduce non-EU immigration it proved impossible to get Bengali cooks.

Side question: is there a specific reason as to why he was forced to hire Romanian?

"Forced" was the word he used. But I suspect that he hired them (a) because they were cheap and (b) positive racial reason, that they didn't look *entirely* out of place in a Bengali restaurant.

EDIT: Also

Makes you wonder how people who either experienced European fascism or at least got a whiff of it in their early childhood would fall prey to right wing propaganda and lies. I'm not even trying to be condescending or an ageist here but I'd genuinly like to know how right wing politics resonate positively with a generation that either heavily suffered from fascism as it happened or at least suffered the consequences in the years and decades afterwards.

You could make almost exactly the same point by replacing "European Fascism" with "European Communism" and "right wing" with "left wing" throughout. It's really not a left versus right thing. It isn't like all the virtue lies on the left and all the evil resides with the right, not at all. And not vice versa either.

I'm not quite old enough to remember all that, but I have been privileged to talk to people who did remember it in detail - Brits, French, Germans, Poles, Russians, Greeks and a few others. And the answer is that it isn't about left and right at all. It isn't remotely like any of modern Western politics (or at least until November 8th last year it wasn't). It is all about power-crazed thuggery whatever the source. And power-crazed thugs can crop up pretty well anywhere they reckon they have a chance of winning.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Just to clarify a bit.



Of course it doesn't, and it isn't meant to. I meant it only as a counter to the rather lazy assumption that all leave voters are racists/xenophobes. For that, anecdote should suffice (and particularly here, as I picked these as representative of the many people I talked to pre-referendum).



Strange, isn't it, that you immediately leap to a xenophobic explanation? No, that's not what it is at all (and please also remember that I'm relaying somebody else's views and not mine). As you'd expect, I enquired about the reasons.

No, it is simply because that is the way Spanish nurses were trained to work in the Spanish system, which operates very differently to the way ours does. Over there, nurses have considerably more medical responsibility and discharge their duties differently.



According to the owner, only Bengalis know how to cook curry. It isn't by any means restricted to Romanians. However, given the government's attempts to reduce non-EU immigration it proved impossible to get Bengali cooks.



"Forced" was the word he used. But I suspect that he hired them (a) because they were cheap and (b) positive racial reason, that they didn't look *entirely* out of place in a Bengali restaurant.

I didn't leap to a xenophobic explanation, I just tried to understand how this specific event can lead someone to vote Leave.

Removing Spanish people will not ensure that more Indian nurse comes into the UK. Just that they will be less Spanish nurses.

Furthermore, the UK like every EU country had its personal policy regarding non-EU immigration so I really fail to see how this relate to Brexit.

 

[tuxfool]

I didn't leap to a xenophobic explanation, I just tried to understand how this specific event can lead someone too vote Leave.

Removing Spanish people will not ensure that more Indian nurse comes into the UK. Just that they will be less Spanish nurses.

Furthermore, the UK like every EU country had its personal policy regarding non-EU immigration so I really fail to see how this relate to Brexit.

Your mistake is applying logic to the situation.

 

[Maztorre]

Yes it has, past tense.

The years going forward for Ireland in the EU will not be nearly so beneficial, what with being an ever increasing net contributor and it's single biggest trading partner in Europe gone.

The idea that the Irish people will always support the EU, come what may, is just as mental, not to mention arrogant.

What's arrogant is your proclamations about Ireland given the utter ignorance of the Leave campaign towards issues facing the Irish border before and after the referendum. Ireland stands at about 80% approval of the EU, which has little to do with whether it is a net contributor or not, and more to do with having a generally positive and outward-facing attitude towards Europe, rather than the insular petty nationalism festering in England right now.

This is primarily because:

a) it's a complete fucking no-brainer for a country of Ireland's position in the world, size, demographics and economic activity to be part of the EU.
b) the Irish have historically travelled in pursuit of opportunities, meaning that they place value in the idea of free movement, and are therefore less inclined towards the immigrant scapegoating that is at the heart of anti-EU sentiment. You know, since many of them remember a time when Irish immigrants were the scapegoated imminent threat to English workers.

Fucking hilarious to hear a Brexiteer preach of Ireland's sentiments about Europe whenever a huge amount of that sentiment is driven by memory of dealing with Westminster.

 

[phisheep]

I didn't leap to a xenophobic explanation, I just tried to understand how this specific event can lead someone to vote Leave.

Removing Spanish people will not ensure that more Indian nurse comes into the UK. Just that they will be less Spanish nurses.

Furthermore, the UK like every EU country had its personal policy regarding non-EU immigration so I really fail to see how this relate to Brexit.

Then you fail to understand the electorate.

Please don't go at me for this, I am not trying to justify their logic, just to explain it. I was talking to these people to try and persuade them to vote Remain, so I had that conversation face to face and asked those questions, yet they were unmoved.

Neither of them was of English heritage. One Bengali, one Scot.

(And be grateful I have not added the anecdote of the lifelong Labour voter who thought Farage would make a brilliant Prime Minister!).

 

[Micael]

I don't think that is a warranted conclusion. I talked to a *lot* of people in the run-up to the referendum and in the main they were not against foreigners as such (though there were a few out-and-out racists, including a very well-travelled German-speaking Welshman). More typically the were against immigration from Europe, and usually eastern Europe in particular.

For example, a senior nurse in the NHS who despaired of the Spanish nurses she had to deal with - who were ill-disciplined, inclined to handle medication themselves without reference to a doctor, and were nowhere near as good with patients or with the English language as the Indian nurses that she used to have.

Another example, the owner of the curry place across the road from me despairs of not being able to bring in decent cooks from Bengal and of being forced to use Romanian cooks who have not the faintest idea what to do with a curry.

It's an unhelpful and gross oversimplification to consider that everyone voting Leave did so for racist reasons.

Ok seriously am I the only one that is thinking the examples he gave (as in that people gave him) are racist, or at least something very similar?

Because it is thinking an entire group of people is incapable of doing their job and or doing it worse because they come from X country, and that another group of people can do that job because they come from Y country.

I mean don't take this the wrong way yeah sure some people in some countries are more likely to be better at doing certain jobs, pretty sure Portuguese people are in general better at making codfish based dishes, doesn't mean they are the only ones that can do it, stereotyping is a form of racism. I mean just replace Bengal and Romanian for Men and Women and see if that wouldn't straight up jump out as gender discrimination on the part of that person.

In the end not that its super crucial it would still be a totally stupid reason to do the massive change that is brexit, given that it wouldn't even solve the "problem" they had.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Then you fail to understand the electorate.

Please don't go at me for this, I am not trying to justify their logic, just to explain it. I was talking to these people to try and persuade them to vote Remain, so I had that conversation face to face and asked those questions, yet they were unmoved.

Neither of them was of English heritage. One Bengali, one Scot.

(And be grateful I have not added the anecdote of the lifelong Labour voter who thought Farage would make a brilliant Prime Minister!).

I wasn't aiming my criticism at you directly, just trying to understand the logic behind those accounts.

 

[phisheep]

Ok seriously am I the only one that is thinking the examples he gave (as in that people gave him) are racist, or at least something very similar?

Because it is thinking an entire group of people is incapable of doing their job and or doing it worse because they come from X country, and that another group of people can do that job because they come from Y country.

Sure, it shows perhaps a lack of breadth of understanding at least.

But is that really any different from stereotyping 52% of the electorate as racist? Thinking that an entire group of people is incapable of voting right?

Anyway, that's enough for tonight, it's my bedtime - more stocktaking early in the morning.

 

[TimmmV]

What's arrogant is your proclamations about Ireland given the utter ignorance of the Leave campaign towards issues facing the Irish border before and after the referendum. Ireland stands at about 80% approval of the EU, which has little to do with whether it is a net contributor or not, and more to do with having a generally positive and outward-facing attitude towards Europe, rather than the insular petty nationalism festering in England right now.

This is primarily because:

a) it's a complete fucking no-brainer for a country of Ireland's position in the world, size, demographics and economic activity to be part of the EU.
b) the Irish have historically travelled in pursuit of opportunities, meaning that they place value in the idea of free movement, and are therefore less inclined towards the immigrant scapegoating that is at the heart of anti-EU sentiment. You know, since many of them remember a time when Irish immigrants were the scapegoated imminent threat to English workers.

Fucking hilarious to hear a Brexiteer preach of Ireland's sentiments about Europe whenever a huge amount of that sentiment is driven by memory of dealing with Westminster.

A big part of his point was basically "the UK leaving will fuck things up for Ireland so much that they will want to leave" instead of just adding to any resentment Ireland may have towards the UK. I wouldn't take what he says too seriously

 

[Flintty]

I'm not sure you're the one to determine they're valid and honest. My opinions that we should have flying pigs are valid and honest too.

Yes, my reasons were valid and honest and you can't say otherwise. I don't get the point you're trying to make. You're saying my opinion and personal beliefs are invalid?

 

[tuxfool]

Yes, my reasons were valid and honest and you can't say otherwise. I don't get the point you're trying to make. You're saying my opinion and personal beliefs are invalid?

Whether they're valid or not cannot be determined if you won't say what they are. You absolutely can have garbage opinions if they're based on faulty premises, which we cannot judge without you saying what they are.

Given that you refused to give any factual basis for Brexit when asked, I'm leading to think that your opinion is stupid (a better way of phrasing it as even stupid opinions can be valid). I'm willing to be proven wrong.

 

[Flintty]

Whether they're valid or not cannot be determined if you won't say what they are. You absolutely can have garbage opinions if they're based on faulty premises, which we cannot judge without you saying what they are.

Given that you refused to give any factual basis for Brexit when asked, I'm leading to think that your opinion is stupid (a better way of phrasing it as even stupid opinions can be valid). I'm willing to be proven wrong.

That's the thing. I actually started writing out a reply to give my reasoning behind my vote but then i remembered where I'm posting. You don't actually care about why I voted leave and no amount of reasonable explanation is going to change your opinion of me, just as you won't be able to change mine. So I'm not going to waste my time and put myself 'on trial' on GAF. I don't need to. I know that my vote was not based on malicious intent and you'll just have to take my word for it and stop trying to bait me.

 

[Danneee]

What is it with Brexiteers that they all have a fetish for EU disaster porn? It's not enough that they finally got Brexit, they seem obsessed with predictions and narratives of wider EU failure and other countries leaving.

It's almost as if part of them knows it's one of the most stupid fucking things we've ever done, and hopes that things fall apart elsewhere so we don't look so dumb.

It's the same "Russia will invade Sweden", "Everybody will leave the EU", "NEGATIVE STUFF" as always. Some people are just unhappy with their place in life and want to spread the unhappiness if they can.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

You don't actually care about why I voted leave and no amount of reasonable explanation is going to change your opinion of me, just as you won't be able to change mine. So I'm not going to waste my time and put myself 'on trial' on GAF.

Brexiteering in a nutshell:

"I voted leave!"
"Why?"
"Reason!"
"That's a stupid reason because x, y and z!"
"Another reason!"
"That's a stupid reason because of a, b and c!"
*cycle continues for as long as Brexiteer has patience*
*Brexiteer realises that every reason he has is stupid, instead decides that the world is wrong, not him/her*
*Brexiteer bails feeling superior*

Here's a good example of how stupid the reasons people give are:

That curry house owner who can't hire Bengali curry chefs, yeah?

You know WHY he can't hire those chefs?

Restrictive Tory immigration policy, making it very hard for those on middle to low incomes to emigrate here. Absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

The nurse?

That sounds like procedural/disciplinary failings of the NHS. Nothing to do with the EU - it's a good thing we have EU immigration to fill skills gaps in the NHS, too!

When you rip away the logic, you find ignorance or xenophobia. Every single time.

 

[Frankfurter]

That's the thing. I actually started writing out a reply to give my reasoning behind my vote but then i remembered where I'm posting. You don't actually care about why I voted leave and no amount of reasonable explanation is going to change your opinion of me, just as you won't be able to change mine. So I'm not going to waste my time and put myself 'on trial' on GAF. I don't need to. I know that my vote was not based on malicious intent and you'll just have to take my word for it and stop trying to bait me.

I'd be really curious to read your reasons. As an "outsider" (i.e. not a UK citizen) it's just baffling to me how this happened. So I'd definitely be interested in seeing your reasons.
I kind of get your argument about this place being "hostile" towards Brexit-supporters, but to be fair most of the Brexit-supporters that post here don't seem to be all that reasonable (see the talk about the EU failing anyway for instance).

 

[StayDead]

That's the thing. I actually started writing out a reply to give my reasoning behind my vote but then i remembered where I'm posting. You don't actually care about why I voted leave and no amount of reasonable explanation is going to change your opinion of me, just as you won't be able to change mine. So I'm not going to waste my time and put myself 'on trial' on GAF. I don't need to. I know that my vote was not based on malicious intent and you'll just have to take my word for it and stop trying to bait me.

I'm sorry if you feel that way, but if you don't tell us the reasons why you're voting leave (that you believe are good reasons) and back them up, just as remainers have. How can you expect us to ever look at you in a positive light?

If you have good reasons for voting to leave, I'd love to see them.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

What is it with Brexiteers that they all have a fetish for EU disaster porn? It's not enough that they finally got Brexit, they seem obsessed with predictions and narratives of wider EU failure and other countries leaving.

It's almost as if part of them knows it's one of the most stupid fucking things we've ever done, and hopes that things fall apart elsewhere so we don't look so dumb.

Again, really interesting how we can read the same forum and have such different takeaways! As far as I can see, it's the other side that's interested in UK "disaster porn" - see all the people posting about a hard border in NI / renewed Troubles, break up of UK with Scotland leaving, etc. I've even seen some people on here saying that Gibraltar will be absorbed into Spain!

 

[michaelius]

What is it with Brexiteers that they all have a fetish for EU disaster porn? It's not enough that they finally got Brexit, they seem obsessed with predictions and narratives of wider EU failure and other countries leaving.

It's almost as if part of them knows it's one of the most stupid fucking things we've ever done, and hopes that things fall apart elsewhere so we don't look so dumb.

One is logical conclusion of the other. You don't leave organization as big as EU because you think everything is great in it. You leave because you think current course of such organization is leading to disaster and you don't want to be a part of it.

 

[mclem]

I know that my vote was not based on malicious intent and you'll just have to take my word for it and stop trying to bait me.

This isn't really addressing you directly, but it's something that's been bouncing around my head for a while. As it stands, it can equally apply to any side of this sort of debate.

There's an inherent catch-22 here: How does anyone know that they're not exhibiting prejudice?

Rational people make assessments based on facts, but an inherent part of prejudice is assuming that something is an incontrovertible fact, so that prejudiced belief becomes a fact in their mind and, while it taints their assessment, the person still is confident that they have made a sound, rational decision.

 

[Camp Freddie]

That's the thing. I actually started writing out a reply to give my reasoning behind my vote but then i remembered where I'm posting. You don't actually care about why I voted leave and no amount of reasonable explanation is going to change your opinion of me, just as you won't be able to change mine. So I'm not going to waste my time and put myself 'on trial' on GAF. I don't need to. I know that my vote was not based on malicious intent and you'll just have to take my word for it and stop trying to bait me.

I suspect you might get criticised, whatever your reasons.
However, like others, I'm genuinely interested in knowing why 'sensible' people voted Brexit.
Almost everyone I know voted remain, so my main experience of Brexiteers is:

1) A few acquaintances that wanted to take back control of lawmaking and thought that EU rules were too burdensome (though none of them could give me specific laws or explain how UK laws would be better).
2) Some racist/xenophobic relatives.
3) The Brexit politicians, who have no idea what they're doing and make no attempts to explain their position (Brexit means Brexit, after all...)
4) The obligatory 'news' story where a middle-class London journalist goes to [small town in the north] and interviews thick people with broad accents who rant about muslims and people speaking Polish in supermarkets.

 

[Skeksis]

Sure does feel great knowing we are leaving the EU because people felt we didn't have sovereignty.

Maybe we should stop trying to leave the EU and instead make people feel like we have.

 

[GamingKaiju]

I was considering attending the pro-EU rally been held in London on Saturday the 25th March. It seems this Government is hell bent on leaving the EU, something which I still feel strongly against.

I asked my parents why they voted "Leave" and they told me it was too get back some control over our boarders and courts and whilst I find it hard to disagree with them (yes there are issues the EU need to address) I came to the conclusion that perhaps because they grew up with British courts having the final say and more control immigration made them vote leave because they were un-happy with the EU.

Whereas me not knowing what the EU was when the UK signed up (I was young) and having grown up under the shelter of the EU and are more used to it than the older generations I can't help but think how much I am actually going to miss being part of Europe.

I'm still hopeful that negations get delayed well passed 2020 so there is a chance a party can get elected to stop the sheer utter madness that Brexit has become.

This "Will of the People" speak is utter bullshit and the Government are using for their own gains now. "Will of the People" Yeh but what about the millions who voted Remain.

 

[Dougald]

I suspect you might get criticised, whatever your reasons.
However, like others, I'm genuinely interested in knowing why 'sensible' people voted Brexit.
Almost everyone I know voted remain, so my main experience of Brexiteers is:

1) A few acquaintances that wanted to take back control of lawmaking and thought that EU rules were too burdensome (though none of them could give me specific laws or explain how UK laws would be better).
2) Some racist/xenophobic relatives.
3) The Brexit politicians, who have no idea what they're doing and make no attempts to explain their position (Brexit means Brexit, after all...)
4) The obligatory 'news' story where a middle-class London journalist goes to [small town in the north] and interviews thick people with broad accents who rant about muslims and people speaking Polish in supermarkets.

We went through this with a few posters before the referendum last year, and really IMO the non-xenophobic, non-logic defying reasoning is generallly the same you'd use to say, argue for Scottish independence. Some people just really don't want us to be part of a future EU superstate, or have regulations decided by a European parliament, even if it does have British MEPs.

 

[GamingKaiju]

We went through this with a few posters before the referendum last year, and really IMO the non-xenophobic, non-logic defying reasoning is generallly the same you'd use to say, argue for Scottish independence. Some people just really don't want us to be part of a future EU superstate, or have regulations decided by a European parliament, even if it does have British MEPs.

Yeh we had MEP's but no one seemed to care enough to vote for the good MEP's so we got the likes of Farage and co who tarnished the UK and did nothing but cause shit in the EP.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

We went through this with a few posters before the referendum last year, and really IMO the non-xenophobic, non-logic defying reasoning is generallly the same you'd use to say, argue for Scottish independence. Some people just really don't want us to be part of a future EU superstate, or have regulations decided by a European parliament, even if it does have British MEPs.

Yup, that's the one area you'll see a lot of Remainers and Brexiteers agree on - making Europe run better by placing as little legal burden on member states as possible should be something the EU works towards.

On the EU super state, we got that opt-out from the ever closer union in Cameron's stupid renegotiation, so that wasn't a thing. But people thought it was, because they didn't do research and had bad arguments fed to them.

Cameron should have known better. The AV referendum was an exercise in using the ignorance of voters against their better interests. That tactic was expanded on by Leave.