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UK PoliGAF: General election thread of LibCon Coalitionage

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Xavien said:
whoops, i get it, ok its better but it still ends up with a fairly large amount of the electorate with no say.

That's where the + part comes in. 20% of candidates are directly elected through proportional representation. No system is perfect, they all have their faults, but AV+ does remove a lot of the inherant unfairness with the current system and doesn't remove the parts that people do like, such as the constituency link.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
Dambrosi said:
What makes you think they aren't? They may be thinking the same thing you are, for all we know.
Yep, that's exactly what I'm sure is going to happen. There's no way that rainbow coalition is stable enough to work, most people have started to accept this.

This likely Tory-Lib coalition is going to result in Tory-Lite, which may not be all that bad all things considered. We've avoided the disaster of a Tory majority. For supporters of progressive politics and economics, a pro-EU/immigration stance and real political reform, the game's up guys. Time to take your head held high with Labour into opposition, beat the authoritarian and super-Blairite shit out of the party, and we'll come back next time.
 

Mr. Sam

Member
Sage00 said:
This likely Tory-Lib coalition is going to result in Tory-Lite, which may not be all that bad all things considered. We've avoided the disaster of a Tory majority. For supporters of progressive politics and economics, a pro-EU/immigration stance and real political reform, the game's up guys. Time to take your head held high with Labour into opposition, beat the authoritarian and super-Blairite shit out of the party, and we'll come back next time.

Being bounced out of government normally knocks parties back to their roots anyway. Time to abolish private property, methinks.
 
Yeah I'd like to see a return to good old-fashioned Leninspart Labour. Where's our Harry Perkins?

5298e59e-d56c-47cc-94e2-63deb5668c22_625x352.jpg
 
Xavien said:
I once wrote to my MP about the DE bill, all i got was a automatically generated statement from Lord Mandleson himself, i cant see how Local issues would get any consideration at all in this centralized government.

You sound like David Cameron!
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Just had what may be a very stupid idea, but it might work.

All this discussion of PR assumes that once MP’s are in Parliament they get exactly one vote each when it comes to divisions.

If we drop that requirement (which would only need a change in Parliamentary procedure and not in elections), then other approaches to PR are available.

For example, in the current (new) House of Commons, if each
- Tory MP had 0.76 of a vote
- Labour MP had 0.73 of a vote
- Libdem MP had 2.6 votes

Then the parliamentary outcome of any vote would be near-as-dammit proportional to the parties vote share nationally

AND you keep the strong constituency link

Of course it all gets a bit messed up when it comes to parties who don’t stand everywhere (like the Nationalists and the NI parties) – but there might be a way around that.
 
phisheep said:
Just had what may be a very stupid idea, but it might work.

All this discussion of PR assumes that once MP’s are in Parliament they get exactly one vote each when it comes to divisions.

If we drop that requirement (which would only need a change in Parliamentary procedure and not in elections), then other approaches to PR are available.

For example, in the current (new) House of Commons, if each
- Tory MP had 0.76 of a vote
- Labour MP had 0.73 of a vote
- Libdem MP had 2.6 votes

Then the parliamentary outcome of any vote would be near-as-dammit proportional to the parties vote share nationally

AND you keep the strong constituency link

Of course it all gets a bit messed up when it comes to parties who don’t stand everywhere (like the Nationalists and the NI parties) – but there might be a way around that.


I had a similar stupid idea yesterday.

Divide the total turnout by each party's votes to get a fraction.
For independents/ others you only use turnout in the areas they stood.

Edit: wait, that wouldn't be fair on greens.. maybe only count the turnout for each constituency each party won? I don't know.
 
He guys. I'm sure at least one of you joined the Facebook group 'We don't want the Liberal Democrats to make a deal with the Conservatives'. The group had around 42,500 members when it was shut down just a couple of hours ago. Just wondering, what do you guys think the best course of action would be to raise awareness about this.
 
We've no idea. Could be complaints, could be hackers. Some on the second version of the thread think it may have been shut down for suspicious activity, with the 'suspicious' action being so many people joining in such a short time period (it was around 11,000 yesterday morning, 43,000 today). Go figure!

EDIT: The new group is to be deleted at 12am UK time. There's a lot of confusion but there's a new 'like' group being created. I think I've read something about things that have over 5000 members having to be a 'like' group as opposed to a 'group' group. Again, go figure...

Is this where GAF goes quiet to censor me even more? :lol
 

Varion

Member
So, another 40 minute meeting between Cameron and Clegg in Parliament a bit earlier on.

I'm almost starting to believe this is actually going to happen.
 
Varion said:
So, another 40 minute meeting between Cameron and Clegg in Parliament a bit earlier on.

I'm almost starting to believe this is actually going to happen.

The BBC text updates has a quote from an ex adviser of Tony Blair saying the fact that there hasn't been any leaks yet suggests that the talks are going well.
 

PJV3

Member
Hopefully a new leader of the Labour party will increase their polling rate and gives Cameron an anurism. Realising if he calls an election he will end up with fewer seats,and will have to spend 5 years listening to Tebbit etc calling him a week little wanker.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
PJV3 said:
Hopefully a new leader of the Labour party will increase their polling rate and gives Cameron an anurism. Realising if he calls an election he will end up with fewer seats,and will have to spend 5 years listening to Tebbit etc calling him a week little wanker.
I think one of the pre-requisites of this Tory-Lib deal is fixed term parliaments, so that they cannot call an election when they're strong in the polls to gain a majority.

To those saying Conservatives have the momentum, I have to disagree. Labour are the party on the up, have been for a while, and I can only see this continuing in opposition during the current conditions. A hung parliament has been the result of a Labour fight-back over the past year from a Conservative majority. You only need to look at the local council elections that took place:

Councillors:
Con: 3364(-121)
Lab: 2857(+414)
Lib: 1615(-141)

Councils:
Con 65 (-8)
Lab 36 (+14)
Lib 13 (-4)
 

Empty

Member
Tories and Lib Dems have pretty torrid records on the council level though, from what i understand, so those contests are somewhat divorced from national politics.
 
Fraser Nelson of The Spectator saying it's likely a deal will be signed tomorrow morning:

Another extraordinary day in Westminster. A deal looks likely to be agreed by Clegg and Cameron tomorrow morning, put to backbench MPs in the afternoon and then Brown will advise the Queen to send for Cameron on Tuesday. (Brown may choke on those words, but if he says 'send for Ed Balls' I don't think she will fall for it.)

Tomorrow at 6pm, the handful of Tories MPs who are in London will meet Cameron at the Commons to discuss the coalition. Rumours still fly but as I understand it a deal has been reached where the LibDems will vote for Tory cuts - thereby fulfilling Vince Cable's pledge to be the guarantor of stability.

"But they will want Cabinet seats," I am told by a LibDem source. "Why be tainted with cuts with nothing in return?" This would be the next level of coalition, a closer deal that has not been negotiated yet. The attraction to the Tories is twofold. Cameron feels short of talent anyway and could quite do with David Laws etc lending a hand and Clegg remains the odds-on favourite to be Home Secretary. And it would lock the Lib Dems in, allowing him to call an election at a time of his choosing. The great unknown is PR. A few Tory MPs have told me that this would be a dealbreaker - but would they support the idea of a 2012 referendum on PR with the likliehood that there would be a general election before then.

College Green is the stage for this political drama. You could stage a play about Brown's downfall with College Green as a set. The news channels' huts use the Commons as a backdrop. The major players mull around looking for journalists (or tourists) to talk to. Today I bumped into Graham Brady (campaigning for chairmanship of 1922 committee), Ming Campbell, Michael Gove and even Angus Robertson, who declared himself leader of the SNP coalition team.

MPs are communicating by email and text, anxiously waiting to hear of their leaders' negotiations. One problem with the meeting of Tory backbenchers tomorrow is that the new MPs don't have passes. Strange to think that the first thing these new MPs will do is to accept or reject a coalition deal tabled by the Cameroons. No one has any idea how the new intake will behave. Almost half of the party was elected last Thursday, and, from what I gather, they are fair-and-balanced - pictures of Thatcher on the walls and Jacques Delores on the dartboard. And I have yet to meet any MP, from any party, who does not think we will need another election in 18 months time. It would be a short one, as all parties are bust. No one has the energy or cash. But there will be no shortage of political drama in the next few weeks.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5985558/a-rolling-westminster-drama.thtml
 
The Tories are just going to have to bite their lips and cede to demands of a referendum on PR with a pledge that the Tories will be able to campaign against it.
 
2150: BBC political correspondent Ross Hawkins says a colleague spotted a junior Lib Dem aide going into Parliament carrying pizza boxes. "It may be they are sustaining themselves through the night with pizzas", he adds.

:lol
 

Empty

Member
blazinglord said:
The Tories are just going to have to bite their lips and cede to demands of a referendum on PR with a pledge that the Tories will be able to campaign against it.

this really is the best outcome for all. tories get in power, lib dems don't destroy themselves, labour gets a chance to rebuild properly and we get a stable government.
 

Varion

Member
killer_clank said:
Cameron feels short of talent anyway and could quite do with David Laws etc lending a hand and Clegg remains the odds-on favourite to be Home Secretary. And it would lock the Lib Dems in, allowing him to call an election at a time of his choosing.
This still seems like the big issue for me. If Cameron can call an election whenever he likes, that's exactly what he's going to do, and anything he's promised the Lib Dems that isn't implemented pretty much immediately isn't going to happen.
 

Zenith

Banned
Xavien said:
I once wrote to my MP about the DE bill, all i got was a automatically generated statement from Lord Mandleson himself, i cant see how Local issues would get any consideration at all in this centralized government.

I wrote to mine about it and got a long personalised response. She was Lib Dem ftw.

Link any anti-Cameron/Clegg Facebook groups so I can join

Why would you want this to fail? A Lab-Lib government is infeasible with the number of seats they have. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. And if we don't get a Lib-Con government then we'll just get a Con government and everyone will think there's no room to vote for a 3rd party in this country.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, has given himself until the end of tomorrow to decide whether to let David Cameron form a government, or instead risk a deal with Labour that might be seen as illegitimate by the public and jeopardise the success of a yes vote in a referendum on electoral reform.

Clegg met Gordon Brown for an hour at the Foreign Office today and is understood to have set out his fear that a Lib-Lab coalition might be regarded as illegitimate even if Brown stood down as its leader.

Cameron has suggested reductions in the number of MPs, an elected House of Lords and a fixed-term parliament – all major concessions.
 

Varion

Member
Sage00 said:
Nick Clegg, the Liberal Democrat leader, has given himself until the end of tomorrow to decide whether to let David Cameron form a government, or instead risk a deal with Labour that might be seen as illegitimate by the public and jeopardise the success of a yes vote in a referendum on electoral reform.

Clegg met Gordon Brown for an hour at the Foreign Office today and is understood to have set out his fear that a Lib-Lab coalition might be regarded as illegitimate even if Brown stood down as its leader.

Cameron has suggested reductions in the number of MPs, an elected House of Lords and a fixed-term parliament – all major concessions.
Where's this from? Reads like a paste from somewhere.
 

PJV3

Member
Clegg still needs approval from the federal executive and he needs 75% to get his way.
Will they have that meeting first or after the announcement?
 
So basically Clegg has quite possibly cemented himself in history... As the next Lloyd George.

When are people going to get their heads around this idea of political legitimacy? A government with 64% of the vote (irrespective of the tory vote) has more legitimacy in my eyes.

This 'strong and stable government stuff' is just smoke and mirrors to make people forget about electoral reform.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
MarshMellow96 said:
When are people going to get their heads around this idea of political legitimacy? A government with 64% of the vote (irrespective of the tory vote) has more legitimacy in my eyes.

This 'strong and stable government stuff' is just smoke and mirrors to make people forget about electoral reform.

Now that is just a dreamworld. There is no way on earth that you'd get a government of 'everyone but the Tories'. It would collapse into recriminations before the agreement had been photocopied.
 
phisheep said:
Now that is just a dreamworld. There is no way on earth that you'd get a government of 'everyone but the Tories'. It would collapse into recriminations before the agreement had been photocopied.

Well this country does live in a dreamworld after all given that this is what the country has voted for. I say give the people what they want.

Boy I would love to see that tory smear campaign...
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
A 14-year-old boy from Lancashire who voted in the general election said he did it because he "wanted to make a difference".

Alfie McKenzie, from Poulton-le-Fylde, voted for the Liberal Democrats in the Wyre and Preston North constituency, after being sent a polling card.
He was only caught when he confided in a teacher at school. His head teacher called the local council and police.

Ben Wallace won the seat for the Conservatives with a 15,844 majority.
Wyre Borough Council and Lancashire police have both said they are investigating.

Alfie went to his local polling station before school on Thursday, wearing a trench coat, glasses, jeans and smart shoes so officials would "think I was a Tory".
"I knew they wouldn't suspect an under-18 for voting Tory,"
he said.

Alfie said he was "very serious" about politics and socialism, but decided to vote Liberal Democrat as a tactical option.

He said: "There's not a socialist candidate in our area and unfortunately even if there was it would be a wasted vote. I've looked into it and the best option for a socialist is the Liberal Democrats.

"I did want to make a difference - unfortunately I didn't."
Alfie's mum, Nadine Wiseman, said she had asked him not to vote, after he received the polling card, but she "wasn't surprised" when he did.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/election_2010/england/8670022.stm

Perfect. :lol
 

Empty

Member
phisheep said:
Now that is just a dreamworld. There is no way on earth that you'd get a government of 'everyone but the Tories'. It would collapse into recriminations before the agreement had been photocopied.

nationalists with such a strong influence in our government would be the west lothian question times a million in terms of problems.
 
Varion said:
So much for no abritrary time limits :lol

Oh well, tomorrow should be yet another very interesting day indeed.

Yay, another day of having BBC News on constantly! Never watched so much rolling news in my life.

Speaking of the nationalists, they may be another stumbling block in a "Rainbow coalition", as I don't think they'll vote on English only issues.
 

Dabanton

Member
PJV3 said:
Clegg still needs approval from the federal executive and he needs 75% to get his way.
Will they have that meeting first or after the announcement?

No way will they say yes to any deal with the tories.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
killer_clank said:
Yay, another day of having BBC News on constantly! Never watched so much rolling news in my life.

Same here. I even did the ironing to give me an excuse to be in front of the TV.
 

Sage00

Once And Future Member
Empty said:
nationalists with such a strong influence in our government would be the west lothian question times a million in terms of problems.
The SNP have said they and PC don't want to join a coalition, they would only contribute their vote to the Queen's Speech and Budget to get the govt. into power (with concessions), then vote on other things on an issue-by-issue basis.
 

Varion

Member
killer_clank said:
Yay, another day of having BBC News on constantly! Never watched so much rolling news in my life.
Same :lol Spent most of the last few days stuck on the couch watching BBC News loop while trying to do some work during the less interesting moments.

Got a class tomorrow and I'm going to be rushing home straight after it to get back to the news. So sad.

Dabanton said:
No way will they say yes to any deal with the tories.
Well they already approved Clegg talking to the Conservatives, so I wouldn't say it's impossible. Depends on the contents of the deal.
 
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