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UK PoliGAF: General election thread of LibCon Coalitionage
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brain_stew
Member
avaya said:
Waaah?? He's as "true blue" as it gets. Not policy wise of course but that's only because he's so desperate for power and honestly, I just see him as a poor man's Tony Blair.
Funny anecdote , finally talked to my mum a few days ago and she brought up the leaders debate and the Paxman interviews. For those who don't know, my parents are ultra conservative Daily Mail readers. Anyway, she said that she didn't like Clegg because he was too much like Blair because he "waved his hands around too much like Blair" and "Cameron must be real bright thinker if he can handle Paxman".
My response was "Okay".
Not really funny, more like depressing.
My response was "Okay".
Not really funny, more like depressing.
Cameron is old school Tory and most of them in a position to lead the party will always be the archetypal "true blue". However I don't believe like the others he harbours a distaste for the NHS deep inside him or a will to force free market batshit economics over everything.
He has moved the party forward. Some of them still believe the hardcore Tory stance is what will win them votes. Will it fuck. Ken Clarke is also a very reasonable man, apart from when he is dooming about hung parliaments leading to IMF bailouts.
Blair prior to the 2002 religious indoctrination was fucking great. He would have had an unprecedented third landlside in 2005 were it not for his fucking war. There has never been a better PM in PMQ's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpZhugomNJE.
Anyway I am warming to the idea of a Con-Lib coalition, the Lib Dems would be the handbrake on the Tories destroying the country. I'm fine with this as long as electoral reform is pushed through because the election after this one....bye bye conservatives forever!
He has moved the party forward. Some of them still believe the hardcore Tory stance is what will win them votes. Will it fuck. Ken Clarke is also a very reasonable man, apart from when he is dooming about hung parliaments leading to IMF bailouts.
Blair prior to the 2002 religious indoctrination was fucking great. He would have had an unprecedented third landlside in 2005 were it not for his fucking war. There has never been a better PM in PMQ's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpZhugomNJE.
Anyway I am warming to the idea of a Con-Lib coalition, the Lib Dems would be the handbrake on the Tories destroying the country. I'm fine with this as long as electoral reform is pushed through because the election after this one....bye bye conservatives forever!
It's interesting how the Lib Dems support has resisted the media onslaught, and even seems to be climbing back up now. Backfire total.
I think the Conservatives' scaremongering Hung Parliament Party election broadcast may be misjudged and have the same effect as well.
I think the Conservatives' scaremongering Hung Parliament Party election broadcast may be misjudged and have the same effect as well.
brain_stew
Member
Tomorrow's Independant's frontpage has the Lib Dems just one point behind the Tories (C: 32 LD: 31 L:28), which poll is this?
Edit: Gah, I should read recent replies before posting, Comres it is.
The only way the audacious idea of Clegg as PM in a coalition with Labour could have any credence is if the LDs win the popular vote imo. So them catching upto the Tories is important.
Edit: Gah, I should read recent replies before posting, Comres it is.
The only way the audacious idea of Clegg as PM in a coalition with Labour could have any credence is if the LDs win the popular vote imo. So them catching upto the Tories is important.
Linkified said:
you want to give fiscal policy to a central bank.
Please leave this thread now, even if that was a joke.
Edit:
brain_stew said:
While that is the only chance of him becoming PM, I still cannot ever see Labour or the Tories not have the PM in any coalition. Nick Clegg has 0% chance of being PM.
brain_stew
Member
The FTSE is up .5% today despite a hung parliament looking damn near inevitable at this point. Despite Tory claims , the markets don't look heading for meltdown to me. Since the first debate they've performed quite well.
brain_stew
Member
avaya said:
Even the Tories don't want Osborne! :lol
Maybe the fact that a hung parliament means Cable will probably be flown in as chancellor is why the markets are so unfazed?
linkified's dream government :
Massive tax breaks for the gaming industry
Queen to step in and appoint a UKIP/Lib-dem coalition, with Farage as leader.
Taxation relief to help protect the games industry
Leave the EU, because of those damn unelected bureaucrats inflicting policy on us
Hand over complete control of the economy to unelected bureaucrats in the Bank of England
Get rid of immigrants to protect our essential culture, such as the unique design of our banknotes
Pro-active steps to support the gaming industry, such as using tax breaks
do i have that right?
Massive tax breaks for the gaming industry
Queen to step in and appoint a UKIP/Lib-dem coalition, with Farage as leader.
Taxation relief to help protect the games industry
Leave the EU, because of those damn unelected bureaucrats inflicting policy on us
Hand over complete control of the economy to unelected bureaucrats in the Bank of England
Get rid of immigrants to protect our essential culture, such as the unique design of our banknotes
Pro-active steps to support the gaming industry, such as using tax breaks
do i have that right?
Kowak said:
:lol
It reminds me of Jack Ryan reassembling the leadership after a jetliner whammed into the White House.
"I know, I'll put my stockbroker pal in charge. Because his job is to make money ! He knows how to MAKE it, not just MANAGE it. This country's really going to power ahead now".
J Tourettes
Banned
Empty said:
Almost. You forgot tax breaks for the gaming industry.
brain_stew
Member
Uh-oh the junior Chuckle brother is on now.
brain_stew
Member
Kowak said:
Yeah, he's doing a good job at laying into the Tories atm though, tbf.
Scarily, earlier today some of the political commentators suggested he's a real candidate for PM if Labour go into a coalition with the Lib Dems, scary thought indeed.
brain_stew
Member
Kowak said:
Oh God no! :lol
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Kowak said:
PMQ's were gold back then.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Kowak said:
Blair had good writers too (Campbell.)
I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
I know it's a Daily Mail smear story but... respect for Clegg -100 points after the Nazi comments he made in 2002. What an idiot, and I certainly will not be voting for him now.
That said, I doubt I can choose between the candidates anyway. Even after using this website to help me:
http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/
I am still divided 25% Labour, 25% Tory, 25% Green and 25% Lib Dem, based on 8 policies. So, in other words... I disagree with 75% of what every party has to offer.
I might just not vote.
That said, I doubt I can choose between the candidates anyway. Even after using this website to help me:
http://voteforpolicies.org.uk/
I am still divided 25% Labour, 25% Tory, 25% Green and 25% Lib Dem, based on 8 policies. So, in other words... I disagree with 75% of what every party has to offer.
I might just not vote.
I NEED SCISSORS said:
Did you read the article in which he made that comment?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/19/eu.germany
If so what are you massive objections to it, as it seems to me to be a rational and considered piece that is hardly worthy of vote losing outrage.
I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
Empty said:
I did after looking into it more.
The Germans are a prosperous and highly efficient people. They pulled out of the post-war depression and went on to become a very successful country, simply because that is their nature. They are one of the most hard working and resilient countries in the world, so it comes as no surprise that they have pushed ahead of us in the last 60 years. But gushing over Germany aside, I don't feel that it's right to blur the lines between the defeat of one of the most evil regimes in the world and modern financial success.
I would be lying if I said there wasn't a sense of superiority in the UK public - he is right about that. It can rear it's ugly head at times in the form of outright prejudice, but, bear with me now - this is a superiority that we must never let go of. It has has nothing to do with money, quality of life, or whatever other comparison he wants to make. Instead, we are reaffirming our superiority over Nazism, which is absolutely not misplaced. I agree with him that i'd rather we didn't make childish insults towards the Germans, but we must also never forget the sacrifice that our older generations had to endure to crush that regime. Germany's cross is a bigger one to bear - full stop. I would hope that they, and the rest of the world, never forget the horrors of Nazism.. and also never forget which countries took a stand against it.
I would say it's practically an apples to oranges comparison - we deserve this particular sense of superiority, while Germany deserve their financial superiority.
But... to offer a more simple explanation of why I didn't like the article: I felt that it was an inappropriate article to make in today's day and age. Not only did he get it wrong (imo), it was like sticking his finger even deeper into an open wound. Opinion pieces like this are simply too inflammatory and for a man in his position of authority, i'd rather he kept his mouth zipped and remained neutral. His article header is correct: you just don't mention the war if you don't want to stir shit up.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Wes said:
Remember that party political broadcast where it was just Blair and Brown just sitting around a table talking about all the good stuff New Labour's done? It was gold.
brain_stew
Member
I NEED SCISSORS said:
There's only one idiot here and that's you for lapping up that stupid shit from the Daily Mail. If you'd have read the actual article you'd have seen it was one of the most sensible pieces of politcal commentary to come from a British politician in years. Reading that article only increased my respect for Clegg.
Shanadeus said:
Seriously. I honestly can't understand how you could garner anything but for Clegg after reading it. Unless you were a bottom feeding, xenophobic Daily Mail reader of course.
Here's tomorrow's Daily Fail:
(contrast "should consider" with the headline)
Read the rest of the bollocks at: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ele...on-2010-Nick-Cleggs-demand-NHS-broken-up.html
Apart from everything it insinuates being wrong, this is the main point Nick Clegg was making in the original interview:
Which is 100% correct.
This is what 'considering' means, it's also a politician being HONEST. You know, like everyone has been saying they want politicians to be?
First the Lib Dems are supposedly 'populist' and telling people what they want to hear. Now it turns out that Clegg is anything but populist, and has enough conviction and beliefs to talk about Trident, the NHS, immigration, suddenly that's a bad thing.
The more this goes on, the more the 'old politics' accusation sticks. And the more parts of the media make a complete laughing stock of themselves.
(contrast "should consider" with the headline)
Read the rest of the bollocks at: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ele...on-2010-Nick-Cleggs-demand-NHS-broken-up.html
Apart from everything it insinuates being wrong, this is the main point Nick Clegg was making in the original interview:
Nick Clegg said:
Which is 100% correct.
This is what 'considering' means, it's also a politician being HONEST. You know, like everyone has been saying they want politicians to be?
First the Lib Dems are supposedly 'populist' and telling people what they want to hear. Now it turns out that Clegg is anything but populist, and has enough conviction and beliefs to talk about Trident, the NHS, immigration, suddenly that's a bad thing.
The more this goes on, the more the 'old politics' accusation sticks. And the more parts of the media make a complete laughing stock of themselves.
Dark Machine
Member
I NEED SCISSORS said:
Wait what?... Hang on now. His position at the time that article was written was as a little-known MEP, he wasn't even in the UK parliament at the time.
He's not suggesting we let go of our superiority complex over naziism, even the Germans I talk to have a superiority complex over that, saying they are a much more enlightened people now than they were then. What he IS saying is that we have to let go of this ridiculous 'sins of the father' complex we have over Germany and most of the rest of Europe. "You were bad! We beat you! We are forever superior to you and can never ever trust you again! It doesn't matter whether it was 100 years ago or not!" He's saying that our finest hour is turning us into a bunch of prats, whilst countries like Germany have moved on with their lives and gone past us. Sort of like England fans/press and 1966, in fact I'd say that's one of the best examples of what he's talking about. That isn't superiority over Naziism, that's living on past glories, screaming:
"WE are the ENGLISH! Look on our achievements ye mighty and DESPAIR!"
whilst having the highest amounts of teen pregnancies, drunkenness, people in prison, and the worst public transport (to name a few examples) in Western Europe.
You yourself give an example of this 'sins of the father' complex in your post.
I NEED SCISSORS said:
So your basically saying that we should never let go of our prejudices because we beat Naziism, therefore the Germans could turn at any moment so we should beat and make fun of them for all time, as is our God given right?
I'm sure you didn't mean that, maybe I'm reading into things far too much, but that's what it came across to me as saying. Sorry if I misunderstood.
brain_stew
Member
Regardless of how poor the Daily mail article is (and make no mistakes, its a terrible smear piece) this is somewhere I'm completely at odds with Clegg. An inequal system such as that should never even be considered, anything that encourages a system where people can pay for better care is flat out unethical and despicable and the NHS should always remain free at the point of use, no matter how much it costs the taxpayer. Healthcare is a basic human right as far as I'm concerned and it is something that should be equal for all regardless of background or wealth. Public money spent on healthcare should never be used to subsidise private healthcare and the NHS should never have any sort of tiered system.
I don't think there's anything radical about what Clegg's saying, but morally I'm completely opposed to even considering the idea.
I don't think there's anything radical about what Clegg's saying, but morally I'm completely opposed to even considering the idea.
brain_stew said:
You missed the bit about their insinuations being wrong, namely the free at the point of use one.
And there is nothing wrong with considering things, in the same way as you don't just leave out Trident from a defence review because it's 'unmentionable'.
First people want honesty, politicians to tell it like it is and not make everything political. Then someone does it and you get ridiculous kneejerk responses fuelled by an agenda powered media misrepresenting what they say.
This election really is highlighting how old and out of touch our politics and media are, the need for change suddenly seems to be much more substantial than just a change in who is in number 10.
Dark Machine
Member
The Daily Mail article is more Tory propaganda, is a politician not allowed anymore to:
1. Be honest in his thinking.
2. Change his mind if he's persuaded by arguments. ?
The Manifesto says nothing at all about this, and the fact that it was a little noticed interview done back in '05 means that the Tory press are (as has been said before) having to dig deep to ifnd stuff to smear Clegg with. At the Nursing college address tomorrow I hope someone asks him about it, and I HOPE and PRAY very much that he says what I and you (brain_stew) want him to say: "It was something I thought about, I didn't want the party to rule out having any debate on making the NHS better and more efficient, but it is CERTAINLY NOT something I or the party are considering now."
Edit: @Deck'ard: Don't suppose you could dig up the original interview for us to read could you?
1. Be honest in his thinking.
2. Change his mind if he's persuaded by arguments. ?
The Manifesto says nothing at all about this, and the fact that it was a little noticed interview done back in '05 means that the Tory press are (as has been said before) having to dig deep to ifnd stuff to smear Clegg with. At the Nursing college address tomorrow I hope someone asks him about it, and I HOPE and PRAY very much that he says what I and you (brain_stew) want him to say: "It was something I thought about, I didn't want the party to rule out having any debate on making the NHS better and more efficient, but it is CERTAINLY NOT something I or the party are considering now."
Edit: @Deck'ard: Don't suppose you could dig up the original interview for us to read could you?
Dark Machine
Member
Kowak said:only this guy
Boris is awesome, I don't care what anyone says or thinks, he's a really great guy. And I say that as a Tory-hating Northerner.
Greatest irony of all is this; who came up with the immigrant amnesty policy the Lib Dems edited a bit and proposed nationally? Boris the Mayor of London. The Daily Fail must've decided to overlook that one.
Dark Machine said:
I was just doing that actually =)
Found the whole thing, it's from September 2005:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...ave-to-be-liberal--with-a-small-l-507402.html
It covered lots of topics, here's the NHS bit in full:
Nick Clegg said:
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