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[Chinner]

I was in favour of Griffin appearing on Question Time. Y'know, cause we live in a democracy apparently so I figured that makes sense.

 

[jas0nuk]

If it was as simple as that there wouldn't have been such a huge controversy surrounding it.

But I was in favour of the BBC's decision to do it, and think it was the right thing to do.

 

[Xavien]

A hung parliament is the worst possible outcome with the country in it's current state. We need rapid action to start making changes to the country's finances before the pound sinks and we start getting huge interest rates.

Actually a Hung Parliament would be good in the long term, Lib Dems being able to force a major change in the Electoral System that would restore some faith in the political process, which would help our country far far more.

Focusing on finances is great, but its pointless if no-one wants to vote for you and even if they do, they don't believe what you promise anyway. The last thing you want is a potentially unstable state caused by rampant unrest, due to largely losing faith in the political process.

I'd be willing to exchange short-term stability (in the form of "yet another bullshit government") for long-term stability.

The BNP thrive on a system where power switches hands between Labour and Conservatives with no change, where people feel their vote has no impact, where people don't feel represented, where people vote tactically rather than for the best ideas, where candidates sit pretty in safe seats and feel no need to actually work; that systems problems are partially where the kind of anti-politics sentiment that the BNP exploits for support comes from. Changing to a more proportional system may increase their influence short term, but long-term it helps eliminate the political cynicism that they prey on, and that's why the far right has very little impact in the many other countries with PR.

This, so much this. But Long term thinking was lost in UK politics so long ago (since devolved into "running around like chickens with their heads chopped off"), such a shame.

 

[wave dial]

Business owners can refuse to admit who they like. Just because it is a business does not mean that the owner of the property has lost all rights and has to provide their service to anyone that comes. The business owner can use whatever reason they want to justify that refusal.

WTF... I don't know about UK laws specifically, but most developed countries don't allow this. For instance, if a person is a racist, they can't block all black people from their store.

 

[Xavien]

WTF... I don't know about UK laws specifically, but most developed countries don't allow this. For instance, if a person is a racist, they can't block all black people from their store.

If people have the right to not sell contraceptives to women if their pro-life (and its against their religion) at a pharmacy, then anything is possible here on these wonderful isles.

 

[blazinglord]

Actually a Hung Parliament would be good in the long term, Lib Dems being able to force a major change in the Electoral System that would restore some faith in the political process, which would help our country far far more.

Focusing on finances is great, but its pointless if no-one wants to vote for you and even if they do, they don't believe what you promise anyway. The last thing you want is a potentially unstable state caused by rampant unrest, due to largely losing faith in the political process.

I'd be willing to exchange short-term stability (in the form of "yet another bullshit government") for long-term stability.



This, so much this. But Long term thinking was lost in UK politics so long ago (since devolved into "running around like chickens with their heads chopped off"), such a shame.

A hung parliament would be a disaster and the Lib Dems are not, contrary to popular belief on neogaf, the saviours. The electorate would never forgive the lib dems for keeping Gordon Brown and the majority of his cabinet in government.

As for PR being the cure to all the ills, I fundamentally disagree with PR. It will create a political culture of backroom horse-trading - hardly the sort of thing needed to bring transparency to Westminster. The whole system will become much more partisan and with vested self-interest being more evident in the legislative process. Not to mention that PR is no guarantee that it will 'keep the Tories out', look at Scotland.Labour introduced PR thinking it was the best way to reduce the influence of the SNP, but it backfired with the SNP running a very successful minority administration.

Having said all that, it's pointless to be discussing a hung parliament when it won't happen. The rule of politics is that the more media coverage talks about a hung parliament, the more the two main parties' votes solidify.

 

[RedShift]

If people have the right to not sell contraceptives to women if their pro-life (and its against their religion) at a pharmacy, then anything is possible here on these wonderful isles.

That's totally different. I'd imagine such people would be against selling contraception to anyone, so they aren't discriminating. They've just chosen not to start a business selling contraception. Totally different to selling rooms for the night, but only for Straight White British Christians.

 

[iapetus]

But I was in favour of the BBC's decision to do it, and think it was the right thing to do.

But done in the wrong way. They made Question Time about Griffin, and that was the wrong thing to do.

 

[Garjon]

But done in the wrong way. They made Question Time about Griffin, and that was the wrong thing to do.

Pretty much, even though he looked like an imbecile, the media storm alone probably created enough publicity to guarantee a significant number of new supporters. And that doesn't include the viewers who looked at the website just to 'see for themselves'.
But I agree with Chinner, the BBC were simply compelled to have Griffin on, whether they set out to make him look idiotic or not.

A big issue at the coming election is the expansion to the current rail system, do you really think this is a massive deal or just a down the line promise?

 

[J Tourettes]

Pretty much, even though he looked like an imbecile, the media storm alone probably created enough publicity to guarantee a significant number of new supporters. And that doesn't include the viewers who looked at the website just to 'see for themselves'.
But I agree with Chinner, the BBC were simply compelled to have Griffin on, whether they set out to make him look idiotic or not.

A big issue at the coming election is the expansion to the current rail system, do you really think this is a massive deal or just a down the line promise?

Until rail fares come down to comparable airfares, I think it's going to be a hrad sell to the public at large.

 

[JonathanEx]

A big issue at the coming election is the expansion to the current rail system, do you really think this is a massive deal or just a down the line promise?

I don't think any changes will realistically get made soon (whining from bosses and strikes from workers would probably slow everything down) but it really should be a big deal. The system is overpriced, a bit out-dated and isn't really working as well as it should.

 

[killer_clank]

The fact that Scotland is being left out of the first phase of high speed rail is a joke. :lol

 

[Walshicus]

The fact that Scotland is being left out of the first phase of high speed rail is a joke. :lol

Vote SNP!

 

[jas0nuk]

ConservativeHome started up on Easter Monday in 2005. We've only stopped for breath on ten days since; Christmas Day and Boxing Day of each year. On our launch day The Times reported our ambition to combine "the concepts of a think-tank and online newspaper and [our] aim is to provide a forum for the revival of Conservative thinking and policies."

Five years later we are now owned by Lord Ashcroft and Stephan Shakespeare, ensuring we can plan ahead with confidence. In the event of a Conservative government we hope to expand coverage, and will launch ConservativeAccountability.com to record David Cameron's progress in meeting a variety of economic and social objectives, including:

eliminating the bulk of the budget deficit;
simplifying and reducing taxation;
deregulating and growing the economy;
rebalancing private and public sector benefits;
planning for energy security;
keeping Britain moving via road, rail, sea and air;
reducing net immigration;
ensuring a fairer distribution of political and economic power;
delivering more transparency in government;
expanding educational choice;
localising the police and other public services;
strengthening marriage and the family;
rejuvenating philanthropy and genuinely independent voluntarism;
protecting the natural environment;
focusing welfare on the very sick, very old and very disabled;
supporting diversity in media and culture;
rebuilding the armed forces and the military covenant;
freeing trade and fighting global poverty; and
restoring historic liberties including returning powers from the EU.

ASHCROFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though, I like this idea. Reminds me of the "Obama Checkin Off His List" thread in this very forum.

 

[Chinner]

Well, when the election is over we make a checklist, but I'd rather avoid the obsession with the person in power. I know we won't do that anyway but the Obama love in the Poligaf threads is annoying.

 

[Empty]

Lib Dems plans to re-balance transport investment towards the awful train system here sound quite good, it might not deal with the huge problems in the system where we pay a gargantuan subsidy for a hugely expensive private service, but more effort there is still probably for the good as trains are a really nice and energy efficient form of transport that we don't focus on enough.

 

[jas0nuk]

After the winter we just had, the roads are horrendously potholed. Pulling money out of the road budgets to put into the rail budgets is a bad idea.

--

Election timetable

April 6 - Gordon Brown asks Queen to dissolve Parliament
April 15 - ITV Leaders debate in north west
April 7-9 - Parliamentary "washup", passing remaining bills
April 12 - Parliament dissolved, MPs lose their jobs
April 12/13/14 - Parties launch their manifesto
April 12/13 - Anti-nuclear summit in Washington - will Gordon go?
April 20 - Nominations close, last day to register to vote or request postal vote
April 22 - Sky Leaders debate in the south west
April 23 - Office of National Statistics release Q1 growth stats
April 29 - BBC Leaders debate in the Midlands
May 6 - General election polls open 7am-10pm

Source: http://timesonline.typepad.com/politics/2010/04/election-timetable.html

 

[killer_clank]

HYPE!

 

[Chinner]

Need to nationalise the trains again. Lib Dems aint gonna do that though, then again, no one will.

 

[killer_clank]

Need to nationalise the trains again. Lib Dems aint gonna do that though, then again, no one will.

In Scotland, with Scotrail the actual trains are good and they're almost always on time, but they're insanely expensive. Also, they have this insanely annoying tactic that sometimes returns only cost 10 pence more than a single journey. It should be half the price, damnit!

Really annoying when you're going home for the weekend.

 

[Wes]

Tomorrow should be fun.

 

[Chinner]

In Scotland, with Scotrail the actual trains are good and they're almost always on time, but they're insanely expensive. Also, they have this insanely annoying tactic that sometimes returns only cost 10 pence more than a single journey. It should be half the price, damnit!

Really annoying when you're going home for the weekend.

Don't know much about this, is railways nationalised in Scotland?

 

[killer_clank]

Don't know much about this, is railways nationalised in Scotland?

Nah. The Scottish Government seems to have some degree of control of the franchises, they basically told them to put new livery on the trains that make it seem like a nationalised railway, and that it's consistent whenever the franchise changes.

 

[Zenith]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-threatened-to-kill-nick-griffin-1936014.html

BNP official arrested over claims he threatened to kill Nick Griffin

The British National Party has been thrown into pre-election chaos after a senior party official was arrested on suspicion of threatening to kill its leader, Nick Griffin.

Mark Collett, its publicity director, has also been accused by party chiefs of attempting to launch a "palace coup" against Mr Griffin.

In 2002, Mr Collett declared his admiration for Adolf Hitler and said he considered Aids a "friendly disease because blacks, drug users and gays have it", when he appeared in a Channel 4 documentary called Young, Nazi and Proud.

Concerns about Mr Griffin's leadership had been growing within the BNP since his criticised performance on Question Time. He has faced internal fire for bowing to demands from the court to amend the party's constitution to admit ethnic minority members, and controversy over his expenses as a Member of the European Parliament.

Humberside Police said: "A 29-year-old man was arrested on Thursday on suspicion of making threats to kill. He was interviewed by Humberside Police detectives and has been released on police bail pending further inquiries."

 

[jas0nuk]

Tonight's pre-election polls
These were conducted over the Easter weekend and should be taken with a pinch of salt. Easter weekend polls in the past have produced some very odd results

ICM
Conservatives 37
Labour 33
Lib Dems 21

Result: Hung Parliament

Opinium
Conservatives 39
Labour 29
Lib Dems 17

Result: Conservative majority ~70

YouGov
Conservatives 41
Labour 31
Lib Dems 18

Result: Conservative majority ~76

Possibly one other poll due later tonight.

 

[avaya]

eliminating the bulk of the budget deficit; While cutting taxes...oh wait.
simplifying and reducing taxation; For the very rich
deregulating and growing the economy; Do we live on the same fucking planet? Deregulation is the SOLE reason we are in this horrible situation. We need more not less. Jesus fucking christ.
rebalancing private and public sector benefits; Agree on principle, skilled professionals are taking the public sector for a ride at the moment.
planning for energy security; Through what? "Clean coal"?
keeping Britain moving via road, rail, sea and air; 100% Lies. You will cut the transportation budget.
reducing net immigration; Let's get this right. You want to reduce migration in a country that needs more younger workers in order to service the costs of paying for the elderly. Fucking disgraceful
ensuring a fairer distribution of political and economic power; :lol
delivering more transparency in government; :lol
expanding educational choice; How does that work? Vouchers? Market failures R US.
localising the police and other public services; No problem with that, good policy
strengthening marriage and the family; Good effort but this is a fight against a growing social trend that is doomed to failure
rejuvenating philanthropy and genuinely independent voluntarism; Meaningless
protecting the natural environment; :lol
focusing welfare on the very sick, very old and very disabled; LOL x INFINITY
supporting diversity in media and culture; Read: uncle Rupert is feeling butthurt by BBC online offering a better service so we'll do him a favour and cripple BBC Online and make everyone pay for their shit without cutting the TV license. We'll do anything for that Australian fuck.
rebuilding the armed forces and the military covenant; Remind me, in an era where cuts are necessary why do we need to expand the armed forces? Surely it would be prudent to cut back, especially Trident.
freeing trade and fighting global poverty; and
restoring historic liberties including returning powers from the EU. Gonna re-negotiate the treaty of Rome are we? :lol

Outside of dealing with crime the Tories are largely a joke. Hung parliament and the resulting electoral reform that would be guaranteed it absolutely necessary for this country to actually see progress from the same old shit we've seen time and time again.

 

[Wes]

Labour still has a fighting chance of winning the most seats in the general election, according to a Guardian/ICM poll published today.

The findings suggest Tory hopes of a defining breakthrough have been overplayed, with the gap between the two main parties now at just four points – the closest in an ICM poll for almost two years.

 

[avaya]

Hopefully Cameron is comprehensively double-teamed and destroyed in the debates.

 

[jas0nuk]

Have you ever watched Prime Minister's Questions? Cameron and Clegg get under Brown's skin and make him so angry he starts banging the despatch box and shouting WRONG WRONG WRONG and LORD ASHCROFT.

 

[Wes]

I can see nothing but Clegg's stock rising in the debate. Unless he does a Nazi salute or something.

 

[Chinner]

Don't think I've been watching the same PMQ as you Jas0nuk.

As for the BNP story: Probably is the white supremacists pissed at Griffin. Even if they do change leaders, they're going to accept his changers if they ever want to get into the mainstream with their beliefs.

ICM poll is interesting, but these polls all vary. Best to change out the BBC page for them which has a nice graph:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8280050.stm

This is also interesting, showing the election map and swing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/interactive/2010/apr/05/general-election-map-swingometer

 

[blazinglord]

simplifying and reducing taxation; For the very rich

What do you have to say for planned National Insurance tax rise? I think Labour has made quite a big error with this tax increase and when the electorate start to get their paychecks at the end of April, they won't be happy. Already quite a few of my friends (who aren't natural Tory voters and by no means are 'rich') have said that the planned NI increase is going to influence how they vote.

reducing net immigration; Let's get this right. You want to reduce migration in a country that needs more younger workers in order to service the costs of paying for the elderly. Fucking disgraceful

There is currently 2.4 million people unemployed at the moment. Not to mention the continued unrestricted immigration from EU countries that cannot be controlled due to our membership to the EU. What the Tories are proposing is an annual quota on immigration from outside the EU that is adjusted from year to year to meet the needs of the domestic job market. Plenty of other countries like the USA, Australia and other European countries have a quota. Even Labour has belatedly recognise the need for stronger border control and has proposed a points based-system to keep out low-skills workers.

Polls consistently show that stronger border control measures are popular. So ultimately, you're alone in deeming it as 'fucking disgraceful'.

 

[painey]

I remember being made to watch that BNP documentary in school, yet all I really recollect is Mark at a Neo Nazi festival, and him scoffing a McDonalds in his car while they filmed him from outside the car.

 

[defel]

There was an excellent piece on Newsnight last monday by Paul Mason. People can cry racism or xenophobia but immigration is a huge issue and the Newsnight piece brilliantly illustrates how tightly immigration and the economy are linked in peoples' minds. Politicians ignore immigration at their peril.

 

[Chinner]

Immigration is one of those things where people are overeducated in one area and undereducated in another. It's a shame that both politicians and the media use it as a blame button just to get around problems existing within our social structure.

 

[Chinner]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ele...worst-government-ever-says-Mark-Serwotka.html

The Labour government has been branded the "worst in the history of this country” by the head of one of Britain’s biggest trade unions.

ouch.

 

[jas0nuk]

Finally... the dithering is over

Gordon Brown will announce on Tuesday morning that the general election will, as expected, be held on 6 May, BBC political editor Nick Robinson says.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8603591.stm

 

[Xavien]

A hung parliament would be a disaster and the Lib Dems are not, contrary to popular belief on neogaf, the saviours. The electorate would never forgive the lib dems for keeping Gordon Brown and the majority of his cabinet in government.

As for PR being the cure to all the ills, I fundamentally disagree with PR. It will create a political culture of backroom horse-trading - hardly the sort of thing needed to bring transparency to Westminster. The whole system will become much more partisan and with vested self-interest being more evident in the legislative process. Not to mention that PR is no guarantee that it will 'keep the Tories out', look at Scotland.Labour introduced PR thinking it was the best way to reduce the influence of the SNP, but it backfired with the SNP running a very successful minority administration.

Having said all that, it's pointless to be discussing a hung parliament when it won't happen. The rule of politics is that the more media coverage talks about a hung parliament, the more the two main parties' votes solidify.

This time its pretty different, the electoral foundation has been shaken to its core by MP expenses and general corruption, week after week after week. Many who were staunch Tory/Labour voters, no-longer feel like voting for them because they're just as bad as each other. That leaves Lib Dems or Minority parties perhaps picking up the votes from once staunch Lab/Tory voters.

The fact is that the British People are rapidly losing faith in the electoral system as it stands right now, PR could restore their faith in the system, and no-where did I say that it would cure all Ills, but atleast it could restore the confidence of the voters, something the status-quo wont do.

If the system doesn't change, less and less people will vote over time, and the system will lose all credibility. I wouldn't be surprised if vote turnout takes another major drop at this election.

 

[avaya]

In the house Cable and Osborne usually gang up on Darling and drown him out. In the debate they both reduced Osborne to the snivelling little fuck that he is.

Make no mistake the number one target for Brown and Clegg is Cameron. You always attack your biggest threat.

What do you have to say for planned National Insurance tax rise? I think Labour has made quite a big error with this tax increase and when the electorate start to get their paychecks at the end of April, they won't be happy. Already quite a few of my friends (who aren't natural Tory voters and by no means are 'rich') have said that the planned NI increase is going to influence how they vote.


There is currently 2.4 million people unemployed at the moment. Not to mention the continued unrestricted immigration from EU countries that cannot be controlled due to our membership to the EU. What the Tories are proposing is an annual quota on immigration from outside the EU that is adjusted from year to year to meet the needs of the domestic job market. Plenty of other countries like the USA, Australia and other European countries have a quota. Even Labour has belatedly recognise the need for stronger border control and has proposed a points based-system to keep out low-skills workers.

Polls consistently show that stronger border control measures are popular. So ultimately, you're alone in deeming it as 'fucking disgraceful'.

The NI rise absolutely necessary. Increased taxation in addition to cuts will get the deficit under control. The deficit is impossible to remove by cuts alone and cuts are always dwarfed by tax revenue increases.

Labour are still talking bollocks when it comes to this since we should be reviewing the whole system to enable progressive rises only in the higher bands as the Lib Dems propose. Conservatives are always blaggers when it comes to tax. They believe in the Laffer curve rubbish/Hauser rule and other free market fantasist nonsense which have consistently shown a great ability to leave governments who have undertaken such measures in mountains of debt.

Quota's are disgraceful in my opinion. I don't care if the peanut gallery of the great unwashed don't agree with that. I do not believe in the restriction in the movement of labour or capital.

Unemployment at 2.4mn is a temporary, it is not persistent. To demand the doors shut just because of unemployment is amusing.

 

[Chinner]

As Jas0nuk posted, looks like everyone else is picking up the election announcement tomorrow. Guardian posted it and something potentially interesting as well:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/apr/05/gordon-brown-election-labour-manifesto

The draft manifesto, due to be put to a joint cabinet and national executive meeting on Wednesday evening, offers two dominant themes, of renewing the economy and establishing clearer citizens' rights and responsibilities.

It is being stressed that the manifesto will offer progressive solutions for tough times, including reforms of public services that match Tony Blair at his boldest.

New proposals contained in the draft, obtained by the Guardian, include:

• Provisions for the management of inefficient police forces to be taken over by efficient forces. "Where service is not good enough, it will be taken over by the best", the draft says.

• Simultaneous referendums on a new voting system for the Commons and a 100% elected second chamber.

• A national youth service alongside votes at 16.

• Rights for football supporters to take over football clubs.

• A living wage of £7.60 in Whitehall, funded by a cap on the salaries of the most highly paid public sector employees.

Cabinet-level discussions are also under way on a range of proposals including a cap on interest charged by credit card companies and a new review of competition law by the Office of Fair Trading.

I'll make a new thread tomorrow.

 

[Raydeen]

Quota's are disgraceful in my opinion. I don't care if the peanut gallery of the great unwashed don't agree with that. I do not believe in the restriction in the movement of labour or capital..

I think the peanut gallery want to keep out the great unwashed.

 

[blazinglord]

The NI rise absolutely necessary. Increased taxation in addition to cuts will get the deficit under control. The deficit is impossible to remove by cuts alone and cuts are always dwarfed by tax revenue increases.

Labour are still talking bollocks when it comes to this since we should be reviewing the whole system to enable progressive rises only in the higher bands as the Lib Dems propose. Conservatives are always blaggers when it comes to tax. They believe in the Laffer curve rubbish/Hauser rule and other free market fantasist nonsense which have consistently shown a great ability to leave governments who have undertaken such measures in mountains of debt.

The NI rise is not 'absolutely necessary' at all. Reduction in the lavish public spending and tax rises in other areas (the banking industry for instance) would go some way in getting the budget deficit under control and avoid the NI tax rise. Which, seeing as it affects all those earning above £20,000, is hardly progressive at all.

I believe that unless Labour pledges that the NI tax rise is temporary, enough of the electorate will take a similar line on 6th May and will vote accordingly to give the Tories a working majority. I think the support of big businesses damages Labour's argument that it is a necessary tax rise and clearly Brown has forgotten the 10p tax issue that kept on simmering until they addressed it.

Quota's are disgraceful in my opinion. I don't care if the peanut gallery of the great unwashed don't agree with that. I do not believe in the restriction in the movement of labour or capital.

Unemployment at 2.4mn is a temporary, it is not persistent. To demand the doors shut just because of unemployment is amusing.

Well the fact is that unrestricted movement of people, as nice the idea is in theory, is not feasible or indeed sustainable. The United Kingdom is a small island don't forget and nobody is, rightly, advocating a complete stop to immigration. Just more effective border control, similar to what other countries around the globe use, to manage immigration in a reasonable, rational and fair way.

Looking at the level of unemployment, along with the consideration of other factors, when setting the quota limit is entirely sensible. However, I only mentioned the current level of unemployment in my last post to counter your point that we are allegedly in desperate need for labour that only an open-door policy will fill the labour gap.

 

[killer_clank]

Damn, this campaign is gonna get dirty. It was so mundane back in 2001 and 2005, now we should get some action.

 

[sohois]

In the house Cable and Osborne usually gang up on Darling and drown him out. In the debate they both reduced Osborne to the snivelling little fuck that he is.

Make no mistake the number one target for Brown and Clegg is Cameron. You always attack your biggest threat.

2 problems with your theory - firstly, polls had the chancellors fairly even post debate, and since then we've seen several election polls showing increases for the tories, indicating little benefit to this approach. Secondly, unlike the chancellor debate, Cameron is a far stronger public speaker than the other 2, and could easily outplay them even if they ganged up.

 

[industrian]

Anyone know how I can organise a postal vote from Korea?

 

[J Tourettes]

Anyone know how I can organise a postal vote from Korea?

North or South?

 

[killer_clank]

BBC One have got the helicopters out and everything to follow cars all day. Why are news channels so obsessed?

 

[Wes]

BBC One have got the helicopters out and everything to follow cars all day. Why are news channels so obsessed?

They haven't been able to use that particular toy for a while now.

When's the new thread going up?

 

[Wes]

He's in the car! The helicopter am follow!!

 

[killer_clank]

"Vote for change" held up to that helicopters camera. :lol